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Tucker wheel seals and grease question.

HankScorpio

Member
I have a question on Tucker wheel seals. 1984 Tucker 1544. The bogie wheels had seals half in one way and half in "backwards" when I got the machine. I have replaced most of the bearings and seals at this point.
I am using Valvoline synthetic grease with a -40 rating. This cat lives at 10,000ft and runs in deep powder.
Which way should the seals face? I think that the smooth side should be out like any standard seal. This is what I have done. Many of the seals were in backwards with the spring showing. Was this done to let the seals "burp" while being greased? Sometimes when I am greasing the machine the seals want to push out from grease pressure. Others let grease out ok. If the seal was in backwards would this let grease out but not let water in? I am using a Dewalt cordless grease gun with a Lock'n'Lube tip this year, I used a conventional gun previously. I have learned to grease the machine at the end of every use for max life on bearings and seals and to push any water out. I am trying to make greasing the machine as simple as possible so I have no reason to skip it. Any thoughts on these seals would be appreciated.
 

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Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Nice looking machine!!!

I'm sure I'm not alone when I say "More pics, please"! (Was that previously owned by an electric utility in Idaho? I think I remember seeing a really nice looking 1544 with blade on eBay a few years ago...)

I think you're going to find opinions both ways on which way to install the seal. When Scott and I replace wheel seals, we install the garter spring to the inside. The general concept being the orientation of the lip and garter spring is designed to keep the grease “in". The rationale for installing the seal “backwards” is to keep foreign matter "out”. My impression is boat trailer axles have a tough life and considering the trailer hubs get submerged in water routinely, it is essential to have effective seals. I’m not aware of the backwards seal installation technique being commonly suggested for the boat trailer application. Incidentally, there are many manufacturers of lip seals and at different price points. Tucker has seals made to their specs. The seals are a triple lip design and use a rubber compound specially made for cold temperatures. Though the price of the seals has risen dramatically, they weren't too bad the last time I
bought them.

A technique we're now incorporating is to change the grease zerks on the wheels. There are two basic styles: a press fit (aka: pound in) and the other has threads and screws into a tapped hole. Guess which are cheaper to buy, and cheaper to install? Guess which type Tucker used?

Yeah...that's why we're taking the time to remove the original grease zerks, drilling and tapping the wheels accordingly, and installing new, thread-in style zerks.
 

Cidertom

Chionophile
GOLD Site Supporter
""The rationale for installing the seal “backwards” is to keep foreign matter "out”. My impression is boat trailer axles have a tough life and considering the trailer hubs get submerged in water routinely, it is essential to have effective seals. I’m not aware of the backwards seal installation technique being commonly suggested for the boat trailer application.""


I have not first hand experience in tucker applications. But,
the difference I see is the boat trailer is fairly short duration with a relatively low pressure differential. The buildup I see against my bogie wheel axles on the ST would suggest that the duration is much longer and the amount of water I force out by lubing them suggests a higher pressure as well. I thought about replacing with dual lip seals until I priced them, and decided it was better in long run to just lube. It would be better for the world if someone with a tucker would do one track one way and another the other way and compare at yearly intervals.


 

HankScorpio

Member
Nice looking machine!!!



A technique we're now incorporating is to change the grease zerks on the wheels. There are two basic styles: a press fit (aka: pound in) and the other has threads and screws into a tapped hole. Guess which are cheaper to buy, and cheaper to install? Guess which type Tucker used?

Yeah...that's why we're taking the time to remove the original grease zerks, drilling and tapping the wheels accordingly, and installing new, thread-in style zerks.

I did 2 wheels on sunday night. Press ins, 1 was bad and the other leaked at the press fit. Tapped them and they are fixed now. After doing the 2, I will just do all my press in ones as I have wheels off in the future.

This is the utility company cat. It now has all new track belting with new hardware, recovered sprockets and the track carriers were completely redone to install new adjusters. The original adjusters were rusted solid so I cut them out and replaced them with new steel.
 
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HankScorpio

Member
"" I thought about replacing with dual lip seals until I priced them, and decided it was better in long run to just lube. It would be better for the world if someone with a tucker would do one track one way and another the other way and compare at yearly intervals.[/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR]



This is what I am starting to do.

I take my tracks off before every season now. I pull the adjusters out, wipe them clean and coat with anti-sieze. With the tracks off I inspect every bogie, spin, wiggle and check for loose/tight bearings. If they feel OK I fill with grease until some squeezes out. If the wheel feels suspect I remove it from the machine for further inspection. I will replace bearings/ seals as needed, install and grease.

I have been running SKF 16128 seals but have started to try out the National 4773367 seal. It shows up as a honda rear wheel seal but lists as an interchange for the 16128. Dimensionally they are basically the same. I can get the 4773367 super cheap so I want to try them out and see. The bearings are SKF BR6 mostly but I am also running a lot of Timken SET6. I have 20 off brand A6 bearings that I will be trying out this season. Even the SKF from NAPA were made in Brazil so who really knows about quality anyway. I will be running BR6 in the icebreakers but will try out some other combos in the middle bogies to see what works well. I feel like I am freezing bearings from water intrusion and causing damage more than I am actually wearing out a Timken or SKF. I feel that if failed seals are whats killing quality bearings early, then why not give the off brand bearings a try too. So that's my non-scientific testing that will be happening this season.
 

HankScorpio

Member
Some more random pics, I will post up a bunch more this season, probably just start up a thread for this cat.
 

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Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
I feel like I am freezing bearings from water intrusion and causing damage more than I am actually wearing out a Timken or SKF. I feel that if failed seals are whats killing quality bearings early, then why not give the off brand bearings a try too. So that's my non-scientific testing that will be happening this season.

Your maintenance schedule is impressive and thorough. Thanks too, for the photos! The separate thread is a great idea, and I think would be thoroughly enjoyed by many on the forum.

I'm wondering about the ring seals on your machine. I would think being so new (1984) yours would have the second (improved) design seals, but one never can be sure. On the same thread Davenet provided a link to, I posted some info on the ring seals. Here's what I wrote:

"The inside is just machined steel, and it's designed to slide over the spindle. There is no sealing capability whatsoever between the inside of the ring seal and the spindle, and water, or other contaminants, can fairly easily get in and raise havoc with the bearings. Tucker (correctly) recognized this and came out with a revised ring seal design that incorporates a groove on the ring seal ID for an O-ring. That O-ring makes a seal with the spindle. I don't know when they introduced the redesign, but I suspect many Tucker owners are replacing wheel seals when they aren't the problem at all. If your machine has the original style ring seal design I'd consider machining the groove and adding an O-ring to your existing ring seals, or possibly purchasing new ones from Tucker. Here's a pic of the second generation ring seal."

attachment.jpg

The next time you have a wheel off you might look at the inside of the ring seal for the presence of an O-ring.
 

HankScorpio

Member
I do have O-rings on the ring seal. I have wondered how to tell when to replace the o-ring. I look for tears or nicks but they always seem ok to me. I need to spend some time and figure out what o-ring is the right size or just get some from Tucker.

On the maintenance side some things are easy. Checking fluids and changing oil is simple. The bogies I have learned are where extra attention really pays off. You just can't really tell what is going on with the tracks on. Once the tracks are off then you can feel each wheel and really tell which ones need work.

I can't stress enough to pull out your adjusters, clean them and coat with anti-sieze every season. My cat did not have this done and all 4 adjusters were ruined by rust. When I did new tracks I thought I would just free up the old adjusters and be ok. I was so wrong. After building a screw press to try and push them out and heating until red with a rosebud they still would not move. , I figure we put about 40,000# pressure on them with giant fine thread bolts pushing apart. When I gave up and cut them open the rust had bowed the square steel tube and there was a 1/2" thick layer of scale in between. No way to ever remove them so they were replaced with all new steel. I have pictures somewhere. The whole track project snowballed and turned into a crazy thrash session at Christmas '17. I didn't have time to even think of posting, just non stop fabrication. I would measure, cut, grind and fit until about midnight. I would head home to sleep while a buddy would weld up everything I fit up until 3 or 4 in the morning. Tag team fabrication. After work we would start again each day. 4 or 5 sessions each week until we were exhausted, then some rest. I was up on the mountain by mid January '18 skiing again, glad the work was done. I really feared we would miss the season. Last winter '18/'19 was just normal maintenance I thought. 2nd trip out the clutch master failed at 10,500ft.. Changed it out on the mountain in a snowstorm and the rest of the season was fine. This winter I am doing normal maintenance and adding some more lighting. Hopefully things go smooth, the snow has started here and I should be catting within the next month.
 

olympicorange

Active member
……….. so, the 'ol rule of thumb … the ''lip '' of any seal is supposed to ''face'' towards the fluid,... which is the ''spring'' side . if you look at a seal, it has a ''taper'' to it , so the taper is directed to the fluid . the exception to the rule is grease. any component that is ''greaseable'', with a ''zerk'', has a ''grease-buddy'', etc. generally the seals are installed with the ''lip'' (spring), facing outwards, or away from the grease (reserve). for the reasons mentioned above; keeps water, contaminants, etc . from entering the grease cavity ( due to the angle of the ''lip'' and spring tension), allows grease to flow by ''lip'', to push foreign matter away, without ''popping/pushing'' seal assy. out of its location. such as on a boat, snowmobile trailer, etc. Tucker does have a unique ''triple lip'' seal . never priced them, because I get shocked each time I enquire on any part. ive used all types & makes of ; brgs., races, seals,..on the bogie wheels... and they all seem to work & last the same, etc. on the spindle/seal spacer rings , with the orings,... I haven't investigated for any replacements, of the orings. I clean the rings of rust, etc... and I Permatex the I.D. of ring & spindle ''seating'' area when assembling ,... to seal against moisture leakage,..seems to prolong the grease . very good idea to grease after each use, things grease better when '' currently/freshly'' used, as opposed to ''cooling off'' or cold. ( I realize its a cold/snowy theory), but adapted from heavy equipment, as I attempt to get the operators on board also. my ''cheese on the trap''is ; end your day a few mins. early, at the end of the day/shift to grease, machine takes it better , rather than cold, you're already dirty from the day, besides who wants to get greasy & smell like grease , for the day, from the ''get-go'',.... my 2 cents...….
 

HankScorpio

Member
"……….. so, the 'ol rule of thumb … the ''lip '' of any seal is supposed to ''face'' towards the fluid,... which is the ''spring'' side . if you look at a seal, it has a ''taper'' to it , so the taper is directed to the fluid . the exception to the rule is grease. any component that is ''greaseable'', with a ''zerk'', has a ''grease-buddy'', etc. generally the seals are installed with the ''lip'' (spring), facing outwards, or away from the grease (reserve). for the reasons mentioned above; keeps water, contaminants, etc . from entering the grease cavity ( due to the angle of the ''lip'' and spring tension), allows grease to flow by ''lip'', to push foreign matter away, without ''popping/pushing'' seal assy. out of its location."

This is what I was wondering, thanks @olympicorange. Some of the seals do want to push out sometimes when I am greasing the machine, causing the seal to contact the washer. I am going to try a few "backwards" and see how it works for me.
 
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HankScorpio

Member
Hope that phazer gets some discussion on the thread? Cool snowmobile history

That's a phazer mtn. lite. Friend of mine still rocks it to the top of the mountain with the big sleds. He is in his 60's and rides it like he is 20. Factory paddle track, it's the cleanest one I have ever seen.
 

HankScorpio

Member
A bunch of seals showed up today. Here is a strange one. Identical part numbers, identical UPC codes but 2 different seals. One is coated on the sides with the same rubber as the seal lip. The other is more conventional with steel coated on the sides. These came from rock auto so things often get weird, closeouts and such. Just really strange to see identical labeling. Dimensionally they are the same. I prefer the ones without the rubber on the sides, they go into the bores easier.
 

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