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Heat pump or propane

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
OK, second guy was here, he has a better chance of getting hit by lightning the same day he wins LOTTO, the state lottery, and hits it big on the boat..............all in the same day.

Full of it, and how many breakers do you need for a new heat pump, 5 or more? Quoting me the lowest rated pump..............I really dont care he wont be here installing...............

Loss of confidence in him is fatal
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
OK, second guy was here, he has a better chance of getting hit by lightning the same day he wins LOTTO, the state lottery, and hits it big on the boat..............all in the same day.

Full of it, and how many breakers do you need for a new heat pump, 5 or more? Quoting me the lowest rated pump..............I really dont care he wont be here installing...............

Loss of confidence in him is fatal

Hey - that guy was here too. He was big on pointing out irrelevant code violatons too. :pat:
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Like what? Just curious, I see all kinds of strange claims by contractors.....

That I didn't have a power outlet within X number of feet of the attic unit, then he measured the distance from the outside units to the nearest power outlet. Then he had to call an Electrician to verify some other stuff.

I'm not anti-code but since I was basically replacing two old units with two new units of the same size I didn't really want to have to pay an electrician a ton of extra money just to bring things up to code (especially things like electrical outlet locations).

I was also not really excited about installers that couldn't handle their own electrical work for a replacement job. I wanted someone that was going to stand behind their workmanship but not use the code book as an excuse to pad their quote.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
I was also not really excited about installers that couldn't handle their own electrical work for a replacement job. I wanted someone that was going to stand behind their workmanship but not use the code book as an excuse to pad their quote.

Technically, depending on what had to be done, and if a permit was pulled, sometimes an electrical contractor is needed to finish some work being done by an HVAC contractor. Some HVAC companies have their own electrical licence, so subbin out is not required.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
That I didn't have a power outlet within X number of feet of the attic unit, then he measured the distance from the outside units to the nearest power outlet. Then he had to call an Electrician to verify some other stuff.

Actually, it's nice to know that some guys call for help when they aren't sure about somthing that may not be their expertise i(sp?) nstead of just "figuring" it will all work out, so why worry.
 

Cityboy

Banned
Technically, depending on what had to be done, and if a permit was pulled, sometimes an electrical contractor is needed to finish some work being done by an HVAC contractor. Some HVAC companies have their own electrical licence, so subbin out is not required.

Depends on the state too. Georgia, for example, allows HVAC contractors to do their own electrical work. I went ahead and got my Georgia Electrical Master's (Class 2) so I could do 3-phase and bid industrial electrical work and do service upgrades. Wound up with several service change-outs on top of HVAC replacements. Why pay sparky when you're already there and qualified? There's lots of old 60 and 100 amp services out there that are inadequate and unsafe for a heat pump with strip heat back-up installation.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Actually, it's nice to know that some guys call for help when they aren't sure about somthing that may not be their expertise i(sp?) nstead of just "figuring" it will all work out, so why worry.

It was more the fact that he seemed to dwell on too many details that didn't inspire confidence in him. He was almost too thorough and his bid reflected it. I'm not made of money. I just wanted new hardware that would replace the old abused hardware (by the previous owners).

So while I'm sure there are always ways to improve a system I wanted to balance my ROI. I chose the 14 Seer system over the 16 Seer because the ROI would be more than 10 years based on my location. I saw where he was perhaps hoping to upsell based on efficiency but he wasn't able to show the ROI over the long haul and annoyed me in his dwelling on petty code details.

Ultimately, it's a sales style thing. If I dwell on too many technical details with my customers they often get annoyed so I've learned to just focus on the big picture when selling a project. If the customer has questions then I need to get them the specific details. However, if I was to pick apart their whole system before I even sold a project then there is a low chance that I will get the project. It's all part of building the customer's confidence in your abilities and the accuracy of your quote.
 

Cityboy

Banned
OK, second guy was here, he has a better chance of getting hit by lightning the same day he wins LOTTO, the state lottery, and hits it big on the boat..............all in the same day.

Full of it, and how many breakers do you need for a new heat pump, 5 or more? Quoting me the lowest rated pump..............I really dont care he wont be here installing...............

Loss of confidence in him is fatal

What type electrical service do you have Danny? 200 amp? 100 amp, etc? For a heat pump with electrical resistance strip heat back-up, you may not have the capacity in your current electrical service. Get more opinions before you dismiss the guy oughtright.

For example, you may need two breaker spaces at up to 50 amps for the heat pump, and two spaces for your air handler, plus two spaces for your strip heat. So the guy may not have been BS'ing you. These "spaces" I am talking about are for 240 volt breakers which, depending on your panel, often take up two 120 volt breaker spaces.

If you choose the dual fuel option, you'll only need one 240 volt breaker and one 120 volt breaker. Be careful to compare "apples to apples" bids.
 

Cityboy

Banned
Ultimately, it's a sales style thing. If I dwell on too many technical details with my customers they often get annoyed so I've learned to just focus on the big picture when selling a project. If the customer has questions then I need to get them the specific details. However, if I was to pick apart their whole system before I even sold a project then there is a low chance that I will get the project. It's all part of building the customer's confidence in your abilities and the accuracy of your quote.

Yup. The most important question to ask a customer is "What do YOU want?" Then, listen carefully. Their answer will tell you whether to go basic or upsell. Most folks want the most economical solution to their problem with the fastest ROI. A few want the "Best" with all the bells & whistles and are willing to pay for it. You have to know your customer. Many ontractors aren't skilled at the art of sales, and many sales people lack perception of what the customer wants. Both skills are required.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
So while I'm sure there are always ways to improve a system I wanted to balance my ROI. I chose the 14 Seer system over the 16 Seer because the ROI would be more than 10 years based on my location. I saw where he was perhaps hoping to upsell based on efficiency but he wasn't able to show the ROI over the long haul and annoyed me in his dwelling on petty code details.

Have to laugh a little. Assuming the 16 SEER was a two stage compressor, NO ONE will ever be able to show you a ROI going from 13/14 SEER to 16 SEER. You sell a two stage system on comfort, not payback.

Here's another hint on 16 SEER equipment. If you have existing ductwork and the contractor is out there for a retrofit and even tries to sell you 16 SEER equipment without going over the duct loss in the existing ductwork, RUN. Chances are, older ductwork (10 years or older) will HAVE to be replaced if you are to utilize the 16 SEER eff.

PB, I am curious, did your contractor do a load calculation on your house?

Also, curious if you went with variable speed? (with 16 SEER it probably would of been a must).

A good HVAC contractor will always do a load calculation on the house he's looking at to determine the correct size system for the house.

A good HVAC contractor sells comfort, not temperature control. There is a difference, believe me.

A good HVAC contractor will also always give you a "good, better, best" scenerio with the equipment line he's selling along with add on accessories (such as zoning, humidifiers/dehumidifiers/whole house air quality/fresh air ventalators...) that may be needed for your particular situation, and explain those differences to you as well as pricing.
 

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
What type electrical service do you have Danny? 200 amp? 100 amp, etc? For a heat pump with electrical resistance strip heat back-up, you may not have the capacity in your current electrical service. Get more opinions before you dismiss the guy oughtright.

For example, you may need two breaker spaces at up to 50 amps for the heat pump, and two spaces for your air handler, plus two spaces for your strip heat. So the guy may not have been BS'ing you. These "spaces" I am talking about are for 240 volt breakers which, depending on your panel, often take up two 120 volt breaker spaces.

If you choose the dual fuel option, you'll only need one 240 volt breaker and one 120 volt breaker. Be careful to compare "apples to apples" bids.


the first guy is going to put in one 60 amp along with the 50 and be done. I have 200 amp service at the house, box is 3/4 full, and I really doubt there needs to be that much added.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Have to laugh a little. Assuming the 16 SEER was a two stage compressor, NO ONE will ever be able to show you a ROI going from 13/14 SEER to 16 SEER. You sell a two stage system on comfort, not payback.

Here's another hint on 16 SEER equipment. If you have existing ductwork and the contractor is out there for a retrofit and even tries to sell you 16 SEER equipment without going over the duct loss in the existing ductwork, RUN. Chances are, older ductwork (10 years or older) will HAVE to be replaced if you are to utilize the 16 SEER eff.

PB, I am curious, did your contractor do a load calculation on your house?

Also, curious if you went with variable speed? (with 16 SEER it probably would of been a must).

A good HVAC contractor will always do a load calculation on the house he's looking at to determine the correct size system for the house.

A good HVAC contractor sells comfort, not temperature control. There is a difference, believe me.

A good HVAC contractor will also always give you a "good, better, best" scenerio with the equipment line he's selling along with add on accessories (such as zoning, humidifiers/dehumidifiers/whole house air quality/fresh air ventalators...) that may be needed for your particular situation, and explain those differences to you as well as pricing.

It's funny that you asked. I wanted good/better/best quotes but literally had to drag them out of everyone.

I was pretty straightforward in telling them what I wanted. I wasn't going to have my ductwork redone in the mainfloor because it's all enclosed. I did get all the ductwork re-done in the attic since it wasn't done right previously.

The old system worked pretty good from a comfort perspective but I threw $800 at it last year and it was looking to be the same again this year. I just wanted new hardware. I didn't need the whole house gutted, re-wired, and fine tuned. My power bills are pretty good and as I said the old system worked OK for an older 10 Seer Goodman. It was replaced with a new 14 Seer Goodman with Variable Speed. I just used the 16 Seer thing as an example. It was one of the options (good/better/best) but just wasn't worth it.
 
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