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Tracing down a short circuit?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I need some direction on how to start fixing a problem on the new cycle.

I bought a crate unit that arrived yesterday. All the wiring was done, basically I installed the battery, mounted the handlebars, headlamp, etc.

When I got ready to fire it up, I found out that the starter motor engaged as soon as I pulled back on the brake lever. In fact either/both of the brake levers will engage the starter. Sure makes it easy to start, but not sure that it will make it easy to stop! And likely would burn out the starter motor prematurely.

Any clue on how to trace this down and where to start so I can fix the problem?

BTW there is no chance that the instruction book will help me out. It appears to have been translated from Chinese to French before it was translated to English. To say it sucks would be to pay it a huge compliment!:smileywac
 

Glenn9643

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
What should happen electrically when you pull back on the brake lever? Brake lights?
How is the starter engaged if wired properly? A starter button? Sounds to me like it was wired incorrectly, and some of that cheap labor didn't understand the instructions. Hopefully the wiring is color coded?
I'd start out by checking out where the wiring from the brake lever leads, look at the colors of the wiring at the starter button, tail-light, etc.
Good luck. Shouldn't be too difficult even if you have to re-wire it but might be time consuming.
 

Cityboy

Banned
Do you have a multi meter that can read DC voltage and current, Bob? If so, check your starter switch for continuity to see if it is stuck closed or miswired. Check to see if any safety switches are stuck closed. It will be a simple fix most likely. It's just a matter of moving step-by-step till you locate it.

If you don't have a meter, a cheap automotive test light will work tracing voltage. But start with the starter switch to see if it is energized all the time and then work componet to component till you locate the problem.
 

HGM

New member
Well, I would first look at the brake lights.. If both brakes activate the starter, it would naturally make sense that the brake light circuit is tied to the starter circuit.. Now, where??? Follow the starter and brake light circuit the best you can. Like CB said, if you had a test light, you could unplug connectors, starting at the starter and work toward the switch, this will allow you to narrow it down to where the short is(or isnt).. Really shouldnt be too tough, especially if someone just did it..Good luck..
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
Have you thought that it is the way it is designed? Start it and take a ride and then apply the brakes. If the starter is still in the circuit, you will hear it grind. It might have a lock out on the starter when the transmission is engaged, and that is the way the scooter is designed to be. It might be a safety interlock, like on your car..... Push the brake pedal down before you can shift into gear. Junk.
 

Wannafish

Floppy Member
SUPER Site Supporter
"All the wiring was done, basically I installed the battery, mounted the handlebars, headlamp, etc."

Did you have to connect the wiring to the handlebars (front brake-light switch, start switch, etc.)? It sounds to me like the wires just got switched...
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Bob,
Sounds like you better check your shorts .:moon: :yum: I mean for a short . Do you have a ground wire crossed ? Is the battery connections right ? Is it a postive ground system???

Whatever you do ,make sure you wear clean underwear like mom always told us to .The first time you fall off , you are going to crap yourself silly .:moon: Good Luck !:tiphat:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I have no multimeter. I did play around a bit but didn't figure out too much. BTW, during assembly I did not connect any wires, everything was prewired.

Pull back on either of the brake levers and the brake lights come on, and the starter motor engages.

The starter button does not do anything.

All the wires are color coded and I traced them back to the engine compartment (access was fairly easy after removing the seat it left a large opening and all the wires were right under the seat area).

I called the shop that I bought it from, but they are closed on Saturday, left them a detailed message and hopefully they can call me back Monday or Tuesday with an answer on which wires are switched. I have a list of all the wire colors and what they are connected to so I think it might be fairly easy if they have an answer. If not, then it will be a bit more trial and error.

ON THE BRIGHT SIDE, we did take the scooters out for a test run, 18 miles round trip through the countryside. It rides very nicely, is quiet, and acceleration is smooth. The larger wheels and longer wheelbase (compared to my 2 smaller scooters) make for a slighly nicer ride.

ON THE BAD SIDE, this is not quite a quality scooter. Looks good, but that is skin deep. Much of the chromework is chrome plated plastic. The seat material is very thin and I doubt it will be very durable.

Overall, it is easily worth the price I paid, in fact I think it would be a bargain at $250 more than I paid, and a fair deal at $500+ more than I paid. This is not up to the Italian Vespa/Lambretta standards of build, but then again it is 1/4 of the price. I am happy with it, despite the starter issue.
 

Mith

The Eccentric Englishman
SUPER Site Supporter
Ok, my guess, from working on garden tractors.
The brake lever has to be pulled back before the starter can be turned over. The starter switch on yours is locked so it is always engaged, so the starter doesnt turn, but when the brake lever is engaged the starter turns as the circuit is completed.
You need to check the starter switch, to make sure it engages and disengages properly. If it is OK then you need to check the connections on the back. Some wires are touching where they shouldnt.
You will need a multimeter to check the switch, go out and buy one, no house should be without, they are cheap, and infinately useful. you only need a cheap one that will be able to measure resistance, or a simple continuity tester would do, just to see if the starter switch is disengaging.
I would guess its an easy fix.

Pic explains, click to see fullsize, excuse my writing, I know I write like a 5 year old :D
 

HGM

New member
Bob, I'm a bit confused.....:confused: ... How did you drive it if the starter tries to engage when you apply the brakes??

If its all color coded and you can see all of the harness' I would think you could find the wrong connector plugged in somewhere.... Either way, if you can wait, I'm sure they will take care of it for you.. Good luck with it..
 

Cityboy

Banned
Mith said:
Ok, my guess, from working on garden tractors.
The brake lever has to be pulled back before the starter can be turned over. The starter switch on yours is locked so it is always engaged, so the starter doesnt turn, but when the brake lever is engaged the starter turns as the circuit is completed.
You need to check the starter switch, to make sure it engages and disengages properly. If it is OK then you need to check the connections on the back. Some wires are touching where they shouldnt.
You will need a multimeter to check the switch, go out and buy one, no house should be without, they are cheap, and infinately useful. you only need a cheap one that will be able to measure resistance, or a simple continuity tester would do, just to see if the starter switch is disengaging.
I would guess its an easy fix.

Pic explains, click to see fullsize, excuse my writing, I know I write like a 5 year old :D

Good show Mith! :a1: :applause:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
HGM said:
Bob, I'm a bit confused.....:confused: ... How did you drive it if the starter tries to engage when you apply the brakes??

While Indiana is basically a flat state, I live along a river and the land is rolling. Most of the stop signs are at the top of the hills, so I just slowed down and used my feet. I think the entire ride I probalby only applied the brake 2 or 3 times.



Mith . . . thanks! :thumb: That does help me. I am pretty much a small engine idiot so this stuff is not what I would normally mess with.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Still having wiring trouble with the scooter.

The starter button seems to be defective.
The right brake now works without engaging the starter (this is the front brake) so I can now stop!
The left brake is still operating as the starter.

To start the thing I engage the left/rear brake.
To stop it I engage the right/front brake.
I just look at the starter button from time to time and hope that someday I will get it to work.

I left a long detailed message with the scooter people to tell me what color wire goes where and hope to have this straightened out shortly.
 

Cityboy

Banned
B_Skurka said:
The starter button seems to be defective.
I just look at the starter button from time to time and hope that someday I will get it to work.

Maybe the starter button got installed in a cock-eyed manner; meaning its housing could be twisted causing the plastic plunger to stick closed, or the contact to stick. Try loosening it up and re-seat it if you can. Can't see it from here, so I'm just guessing.

Meanwhile, just look at it now and then.....you never know. :D
 

Wannafish

Floppy Member
SUPER Site Supporter
"The starter button seems to be defective.
The right brake now works without engaging the starter (this is the front brake) so I can now stop!
The left brake is still operating as the starter.

To start the thing I engage the left/rear brake.
To stop it I engage the right/front brake.
I just look at the starter button from time to time and hope that someday I will get it to work."


If the starter button is defective and the brake light circuit caused the starter to engage by going "through" the starter switch I could understand it. Does the the brake light still come on when the front brake is engaged?
If so, that should take the starter switch out of the equation as it (starter switch) is only "On" or "Off"...it doesn't care how you stop.:D

If not (ex.: one if it's wires has become disconnected) it could be the starter switch.

I have to agree with Mith - :eek: - no house should be without a Volt-Ohm Meter (VOM). For $9.95 at TSC you can get a cheapie that will measure AC, DC, and Resistance (used to check for an open circuit).
I have a couple expensive (to me anyway) models that only I use. My kids need to borrow one they use the cheapie. If they burn it up they can afford to replace it.:D
If you happen to buy a cheap one, just be careful that you have it set to measure what it is you are measuring. For instance, if you want to measure your household AC current, make sure the meter is not set to measure resistance before you insert the probes into the socket :eek: .
No, no. Not me. But I have "heard" that smoke will come out of the meter and it will refuse to work anymore.:D The more expen$ive models have overload protection built in.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.

RB
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Wannafish said:
For instance, if you want to measure your household AC current, make sure the meter is not set to measure resistance before you insert the probes into the socket :eek: .
No, no. Not me. But I have "heard" that smoke will come out of the meter and it will refuse to work anymore.:D The more expen$ive models have overload protection built in.

It's OK to test household voltage but I wouldn't be testing household current. That'll kill the meter (by blowing the fuse). It'll probably smoke it if there is no fuse or overload protection.

It'll help on this project but as a note in general, Get a meter Bob!!!!
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
bczoom said:
It'll help on this project but as a note in general, Get a meter Bob!!!!

So you guys are saying I should not just touch 2 wires to my tongue and hit the starter button :whistle:
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
So you guys are saying I should not just touch 2 wires to my tongue and hit the starter button :whistle:
Yes, that's a fine method but it's always nice to have the meter connected as well so you can explain to the medical staff what kind of hit you just took.

Actually, they're very handy to measure your resistance from hand to hand. From that, you can compute the current going through your body when you grab a hot wire in 1 hand and the ground in the other. :thumb:

I=E/R (Current = voltage/resistance)
 

Wannafish

Floppy Member
SUPER Site Supporter
bczoom said:
It's OK to test household voltage but I wouldn't be testing household current. That'll kill the meter (by blowing the fuse). It'll probably smoke it if there is no fuse or overload protection.

It'll help on this project but as a note in general, Get a meter Bob!!!!


BCZ
Oh, so that's what happened...:pat: :yum: :yum: :yum:

I knew that, Thank you for correcting me. You are absolutely correct.
Now I can't help but sit here and ponder the puzzled look on Bob's face as he is standing there with the prongs in an outlet and smoke is coming out of his new meter wondering "What the Hell just happened? I had it set on a Million amps (Mili-amps)..."
:yum: :yum: :yum:
 

HGM

New member
Yea, that smoke is expensive stuff... We have guys let the smoke out of components every now and then, it can certainly get costly if youre not a quick learner..:pat:
 

Mith

The Eccentric Englishman
SUPER Site Supporter
I have to agree with Mith
Steady! I nearly fell of my chair :eek: :yum:

Bob, have you got a meter yet? If not, why dont you try the battery on the tongue method, oh, and get your wife to film it! it would make money having a video of some dude in a hawiian shirt shocking (shitting?) himself :yum: :yum:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I still can't figure this damn thing out!!!

It is making me nuts. I've put everything back together and taken photos of every connection and everything I can think of. I'm calling the distributor for tech support tomorrow.

I've talked to them twice, but they been confused both times (I don't speak southern drawl and they don't speak Chicago) but seriously what the guy has been describing to me on the phone is not what I see, so I'm thinking the photos will be a big help when I talk to him next???
 

DaveNay

Klaatu barada nikto
SUPER Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
I still can't figure this damn thing out!!!

It is making me nuts. I've put everything back together and taken photos of every connection and everything I can think of. I'm calling the distributor for tech support tomorrow.

I've talked to them twice, but they been confused both times (I don't speak southern drawl and they don't speak Chicago) but seriously what the guy has been describing to me on the phone is not what I see, so I'm thinking the photos will be a big help when I talk to him next???

Want to send all the pics and dagrams to me?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
It might be easier to bring the scooter to you!

Lots of the confusion comes from the fact that the guy I've been talking to is not describing anything that I see. Honestly he talks about things that I honestly do not see anywhere. I'm now of the firm opinion that I am looking at one style of scooter while he is looking at something completely different???

This should be simple. There are not that many wires. Access is a problem because of all the plastic body panels and I do not want to take them off because they look flimsy. But taking out the seat opens up the entire top of the engine and all the wiring connectors are right under the seat.

I'm hoping tomorrow that he will look at the CORRECT scooter?!?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
No, I didn't get the meter yet. (long story, not worth going into, but let's just say I spent several days at home on pain killers) And NO DAVE, I WON'T SHARE!!!
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
I found out that the starter motor engaged as soon as I pulled back on the brake lever. In fact either/both of the brake levers will engage the starter. Sure makes it easy to start, but not sure that it will make it easy to stop!:smileywac

I spent several days at home on pain killers

Hope you did not forget about starter motor engaging as soon as you pull back on the brake lever and took out the garage door or put a big ding in the Avanti!!!!!:pat:
 

DaveNay

Klaatu barada nikto
SUPER Site Supporter
mtntopper said:
Hope you did not forget about starter motor engaging as soon as you pull back on the brake lever and took out the garage door or put a big ding in the Avanti!!!!!:pat:

Heh...that reminds me of using the starter motor to pull a non-functioning car into the garage. Put it in first gear, and crank the starter. :eek: They sure don't build 'em like that anymore.
 
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