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Building the perfect snow cat?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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One thing that our forums proves to me is that there is room in the marketplace for a personal or family sized snow cat. An inexpensive go anywhere machine.

So if we all get together and pool our resources to open up a new snowcat company, what would you say are the important features?

Here is my list, what needs to be added?
  • Modest cost (under $25,000 complete)
  • Heat
  • Tracks options making it suitable for year round use
  • Deep powder tracks would be optional equipment
  • Seating for 6
  • Trailerable (no wider than 6'6" with 'standard' width tracks)
  • Dual battery
  • Simple design
  • Removable roof for summer use, or removable rear section for hauling material & supplies.
I looked very hard at the ARGO 8x8 machines. They are about $13,000 new. Add a lot of features and they come up to about $20,000 and 6 people would be very cramped and they would not handle powder snow well under most conditions. But they are similar in design to the Kristi KT4 in several ways. The Argo will carry 6 without a soft or hard top, but comfortably seats 4 with a top. The problem with most of these types of units is that there is no real cargo area. To be practical it needs a cargo area.
Honestly I think the Snow Trac design is excellent. Not sure if a modern version could be commercially built for $20 or $25,000. But use a modern Subaru boxer motor and an automatic transmission with a low gear ratio and it would be a great family machine, also great for business purposes. I think a modified track would be better than the tracks on the Snow Tracs, or perhaps offer it with your choice of several different tracks depending on the snow conditions of the region.

One thing I see as especially practical with the Snow Trac is that it has multiple cargo areas. Over the tracks are cargo rails. On the roof is cargo area. And inside the cabin there is also room to store some cargo in addition to the 7 people. So you can really load them up. I know of no other SMALL and AFFORDABLE design like this.

Below are photos of the Argo. You can see the shortcomings of the design. No storage area. Comfortable for 4 but not for 6. Not designed for snow, but capable or dealing with modest NON-POWDER snow conditions.

Your thoughts?
 

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Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Certainly another option would be to try to duplicate something like BigAl's KT7. But while it has cargo room over the central engine compartment, it is difficult to reach the cargo area. Further, it only seats 4 people. Another drawback (at least I beleive it is) is that it is about 8' wide, which means it will not fit on most standard trailers.

Which takes us back to a Snow Trac type vehicle.

Could a modern Snow Trac type vehicle be built with a modern powerplant that is reliable, provides heat (unlike the original air cooled VW power), and still cost $25,000 or less?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Also, what is better: front, mid or rear engine?
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
I donno Bob ,
That Argo says it can move in snow but they would have to prove it to me first . If you give me the weight and track size ,I can figure what the PSI foot print would be . If it is over .50 PSI or .60 PSI, I don't think it would work .I would really like to talk with a owner who has one and tried this .
Whatever we end up building I think we should call it the "Kristi ~Big Al Flyer edition " :thumb: :a1: .That sounds very "catchy" to me and I am sure we will sell alot to Snow Trac owners for sure .
I even hear there is some guy in "Short pants",living in a Indiana corn field who would dump his broken down SnotTrac in a heart beat just to get one . That is only a rumor though that was overheard at the last KKK meeting .I believe it was our newest member "Mighty Mouse" who mentioned it . I will check and get back to you . Ok I checked and its true .:moon:
 

Snowcat Operations

Active member
SUPER Site Supporter
For deep powder ability you want to have these things in place. As much of the vehicles weight up front as possible. High ground clearance, Smooth bottom. That witha good light track and about a .5? or less PSI and you will have the premiere Deep powder machine
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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BigAl said:
That Argo says it can move in snow but they would have to prove it to me first .
Yup the Argo tracks are not good enough. And the body is too small. There are lots of issues that make it wrong. But it is very likely what a small snowcat would compete with if a small inexpensive snowcat could be built. At least for hunters, ranchers, etc. who do not deal with powder conditions.

Take a look at some of the fancy snowmobiles like the SkiDoo Elite. That is a side-by-side luxury cruiser that will run trails at 60mph and hold luggage for 2, but it is not practical for a family outing or as a small work vehicle for snow use.

Scottrac makes some great smaller sized snow vehicles, but they start at about $60,000. They would be the closest thing I know of to a Snow Trac type vehicle today. They also offer multiple wheel and track options for 4 season use and multiple terrain useage. You can easily seat 6 in a very comfortable cabin, carry their supplies too. But again the cost is too high for a recreational vehicle. Still, it is probably the closest to a family vehicle out there that is not dedicated to just use in snow. And they do have powder track options too.

Snowcat Operations said:
For deep powder ability you want to have these things in place. As much of the vehicles weight up front as possible. High ground clearance, Smooth bottom. That witha good light track and about a .5? or less PSI and you will have the premiere Deep powder machine
Again, that would favor the design of the Snow Trac/Snow Master style wouldn't it?
 

Snowcat Operations

Active member
SUPER Site Supporter
I would like to see a reliable 4 cylinder Turbo diesel engine. Light for a diesel and have 100 to 150 plus horse power. Automatic transmission The vehicles weight should not be more than 2500 lbs. The tracks should be no less than 24" wide and have good side to side traction. I would have these made from aluminum for weight reduction. The belting should be 110 type. No need for a heavier belt. The bogie wheel bearings would be of a sealed design. Seating for 6 people is fine. 20 gallon fuel tank should be standard. Trailering to me is not a big deal but vehicle should not be wider than 7'6".
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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Why so much HP?

To get that type of HP in a turbo diesel you will end up with a heavy engine. And expensive too. Bear in mind the VW engine in the Snow Trac and the Kristi KT3 only weighs about 200# and produce roughly 40hp. Diesels, by their nature, must weigh more.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
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B_Skurka said:
They also offer multiple wheel and track options for 4 season use and multiple terrain useage.
That is something I would try to incorporate.
 

Melensdad

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Staff member
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bczoom said:
That is something I would try to incorporate.

Brian, some of the Thiokols and Bombardiers were available with a Muskeg or Swamp type track. Those tracks are capable of dealing with wet, packed or icy snow, and most anything else including grass. They fail in deep snow. So in my mind, a couple track options are necessary. One would be an all season track. Another would be a deep snow/powder track.

Below is a Snow Trac without a top. To my mind this would be pretty much an ideal machine for summer use. It could be used on sand dunes, in tall grass, etc.

The whole top of the cabin of a Snow Trac could be removed. There are dozens of small bolts that hold it on. If a quick attach system was employed to attach the cabin, somewhat like latching a convertible top in place, then a Snow Trac might make for a good year-round vehicle on a farm, ranch, etc. It could replace a JD Gator or Kubota RTV in the summer and certainly is vastly more capable in the winter. It could not duplicate the speed of that type of machine.
 

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Snowcat Operations

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First you can come close with a VW diesel engine. They are 93 HP I believe. It wouldnt take much to boost the power at all. But even 90 is a vast improvement. So lets stay with that for now.

As far as trying to build an all terrain or all year vehicle. Why. You would build something that was ok in doing everything (maybe). I want a Snowcat not an all year vehicle. I have my built 4x4 and that fills my other than snow saeson vehicle requierments just fine. If you want a vehicle like that then I say get an Argo.. As far as wanting it to be amphibious that is just a saftey issue. The Kristi and Snow Trac are not that far from be Amphibious capable anyway.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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Snowcat Operations said:
As far as trying to build an all terrain or all year vehicle. Why. You would build something that was ok in doing everything (maybe).

Why? Because not everyone will buy individual vehicles for each season. Some will, some won't. But if you have a crossover vehicle that does everything then you have a greater market to sell that vehicle.

I would think it would need to perform very well in the snow. Nothing worse than my Snow Trac. But to also perform in other conditions simply increases the value to most people/businesses. So in my mind the idea is to build a very very good snowcat, then to make sure it can also be adapted to other conditions. If it can perform reasonably in non-snow conditions then that would be good enough.

Snowcat Operations said:
amphibious

That would be a good requirement to add to the specifications list.
 

DaveNay

Klaatu barada nikto
SUPER Site Supporter
It's gotta have a roof mounted laser cannon.....

And an invisibility cloak.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
To address the all season track design, Thiokol, LMC did that back many years ago with the raised center track. It actually worked well in deep snow and low or no snow conditions. I actually refer to it as a rock track. Only the center of the track comes in contact with the ground in less than ideal snow conditions. It makes the snow cat easier to turn, less wear on the complete track, less wear on steering brakes, and less costly to operate overall in minium or no snow conditions. This track was used on most of the narrow track Imps. The pic below is a raised center track design on an Imp.

The engine power and track PSI become very important on any snow cat. As they say "there is no substitute for horsepower." I think you can probably go up to .75 PSI and still have a very reliable snow cat for all snow conditions as long as you have enough ponies to power through the snow. Deep snow on any machine eats up the horsepower especially if it is a wet snow.

As to the Argo, it is a semi multi season unit only for very light snow conditions. I sold an Imp to a family that tried an Argo diesel with tracks to access their mountain home. They only had the Argo for about 2 months and took a hit of about $5,000.00 to unload it to someone else.:( We currently have 2 more families in the area with Argos and neither are real happy with the snow performance of the machine. They really seem to lack horsepower at any elevation over 3,000 foot. The tracks on these two are hard plastic and talk about slipping sideways on a hill. Must feel like a carnival ride to them when they start sliding on a side hill.:puke1: YOU CAN STICK AN ARGO EASILY!!!!! The Argo owners in my area usually stick to trails I have made with a real snow cat to avoid problems in more than 2 foot of snow. They get around fine if they have a recently packed trail or road to maneuver on and not 2 foot of unpacked snow.

I think the cost of insurance to protect yourself when manufacturing a vehicle for consumer use is one of the major cost factors you need to consider in the overall price of making the perfect snowcat. This will significantly raise price of the snowcat to the consumer. You will not be able to make money and provide any decent equipment for the prices being thrown around so far. I think the prices for new good equipment of about $80,000.00 will probably be the end result in any new product. I have talked with the VMC people about lower prices and it is what they would like but cannot see away to do it and protect themselves against stupid people and lawsuits that can arise from manufacturing. The government regulations are another concern. Guess this is why good used equipment will only increase in value as demand is increasing for recreational and home access usage.


Raised Center Track.JPG
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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mtntopper said:
To address the all season track design, Thiokol, LMC did that back many years ago with the raised center track. It actually worked well in deep snow and low or no snow conditions. I actually refer to it as a rock track. Only the center of the track comes in contact with the ground in less than ideal snow conditions.
That is the type of track I was thinking of.

mtntopper said:
I think the cost of insurance to protect yourself when manufacturing a vehicle for consumer use is one of the major cost factors you need to consider in the overall price of making the perfect snowcat. This will significantly raise price of the snowcat to the consumer. You will not be able to make money and provide any decent equipment for the prices being thrown around so far. I think the prices for new good equipment of about $80,000.00 will probably be the end result in any new product. I have talked with the VMC people about lower prices and it is what they would like but cannot see away to do it and protect themselves against stupid people and lawsuits that can arise from manufacturing. The government regulations are another concern.
Ah come on, the government is here it help us :whistle: Right? :yum:

I wonder what the liability laws are on building an old design? Take, for example, BigAl's KT7 and simply duplicating it? The hardest part would be the fiberglass top & bottom halves. The frame is simple. Drop in an appropriate smog compliant engine. Add some off the shelf hydraulic components and some off the shelf interior components and you'd be able to duplicate that machine. If the newly manufacturered machine is a copy of an old design, and sold as a newly built old model, do you still have to deal with modern liability/insurance issues our are you 'grandfathered' into the laws of when the machine was originally designed/built?

mtntopper said:
Guess this is why good used equipment will only increase in value as demand is increasing for recreational and home access usage.
I've often wondered it someone could make a nice living selling re-manufactured Snow Tracs. It seems like someone could buy 10 or 15 of them in pretty bad condition, set up a mini-assembly line and rebuild and possibly even improve them, and get a decent price for them.

People do that with old Land Rovers and resell them for $30,000 to $40,000 depending on the modifications and upgrades desired by the client. A newly rebuilt Snow Trac, perhaps with an engine swap that included a modern water cooled engine that provided actual heat to the cabin, upgraded electrical system, and possibly slightly higher speed gearing would be a very desirable vehicle. I'd think with proper support and marketing $15,000 would not be too much to ask for such a vehicle.

Snowcat Operations said:
First you can come close with a VW diesel engine. They are 93 HP I believe. It wouldnt take much to boost the power at all. But even 90 is a vast improvement. So lets stay with that for now.
You'd need to turbocharge the diesel to make it work properly at elevation. I know from playing with diesel tractors, and owning a fleet of diesel trucks that at elevation the diesels lose power dramatically. I forget the actual amount but it is something like a 10% drop in power for every 3000' in elevation or something like that. Turbocharging them simply allows them to lose less power or hold their power so a turbo diesel at high elevation will have similar power to non-turbo at sea level.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Bob,

Design the ultimate machine then give the government/military first dibs on it. They'll come up with the cash... A year or 2 later, make a civilian version. It worked for the Hummer, M-16 and so many other things.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
If the newly manufactured machine is a copy of an old design, and sold as a newly built old model, do you still have to deal with modern liability/insurance issues our are you 'grandfathered' into the laws of when the machine was originally designed/built?

You must protect yourself from stupid consumers and sue happy ambulance chasing lawyers at all costs and at all times looking for a chance to bankrupt a business. When you go into business and offer a product either new or re-manufactured you become liable for any damages resulting from the work you performed and your inability to see what stupid people can do to the product you have re-manufactured to hurt themselves and blame you.

My experience in rebuilding snowcats or any type of industrial products usually requires very expensive parts that are not common to other equipment. A set of track belts for my 1500 LMC is about $2500.00 for just the rubber belts. The hardware 134 grousers, 134 wheel guides, 1340 bolts, nuts, (grade 8) track lacing's, and 536 backing plates if required would set you back another $15,000.00 if bought new from a current manufacturing sources. This does not include any labor!!!!!! I would guess the Snotrac tracks are also expensive to rebuild.

Hate to burst your balloon but the cost to manufacture products is much higher than most people realize. I spent about 25 years in research, engineering, manufacturing, marketing and selling industrial equipment. Much more must go into a product than most people can ever understand to actually get it to market and successfully sell the item for enough to continue in business.

Only BigAl is going to work non-union, no benefits, 85 hours per week and accept .37 cents per hour.:thumb: You can't even get anyone to sneak across our southern border for that amount. I am sure we will need to find more cheap labor to get this operation up and going. Hey Mike what are you doing for the next five years? :whistle: :D
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
I'll second BC's suggestion of finding a military use first and getting some government contract.

To keep costs down just do what everyone else does. Outsource it to a third world country. You could probably do something with some of those higher horsepower diesels that come out of China once they get EPA issues resolved.

Of course, you need to do your market research first. There are only so many guys wearing hawaiin shirts in Indiana that want a tracked machine.

The market will define the price and the demand and from that you can determine how to source the components.
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
mtntopper said:
Only BigAl is going to work non-union, no benefits, 85 hours per week and accept .37 cents per hour.:thumb: You can't even get anyone to sneak across our southern border for that amount. I am sure we will need to find more cheap labor to get this operation up and going. Hey Mike what are you doing for the next five years? :whistle: :D

37 cents a hour ???? COOL !!! I got a raise !!:thumb:
 

bczoom

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Staff member
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I still believe that making an all-season vehicle may be the best approach.

I would make something that can handle all terrains. It would be more marketable.

Now, I don't know if it would be "the perfect snow cat". Very few (if any vehicles) are perfect on their first production run.

I wonder if something similar in design to the front 1/2 of the M973A2 but on a smaller scale would be viable as a starting point in design.

As for components to build such a machine, I would look at finding existing parts used in different applications and integrate them. Many small contstruction machines (mini-excavators, skid-steers...) may provide powerplant and hydraulic components. Mattracks has several track systems available. Slap it all on a chassis about the size of a small pickup truck and voila!
 

mtntopper

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As for components to build such a machine, I would look at finding existing parts used in different applications and integrate them. Many small contstruction machines (mini-excavators, skid-steers...) may provide powerplant and hydraulic components. Mattracks has several track systems available. Slap it all on a chassis about the size of a small pickup truck and voila!!

Mattracks pricing is between $20,000.00 and $30,000.00 a set for a half to 1 ton 4X4 truck tracks.:( Mattracks for a 4 wheel ATV run about $4,500.00 a set. Mattracks equipped trucks are also somewhat limited to hard snow and packed areas much like an Argo. So far I do not see any multi season vehicle that has the capabilities of a real snow cat. Even the Hagglunds is limited in deep snow conditions and is probably the world standard for military over snow/all terrain equipment. The M973A2 appears to be a Hagglunds unit.

Snow cats are very unique and distinct pieces of equipment. A good/great snow cat will never be a good all season all terrain vehicle and vice versus. Functionality and design are just not compatible. You can try to mate the two but something will lack in one area or another. It will continue to be the Bobs, Als and Mikes of the world resurrecting the old equipment and keeping the consumer snow cat alive.;) Commercial users will buy the $80,000.00+ equipment and use it for work, beat the hell out of it, and pass it on to the individual rebuilder to repair and restore for personal use.

Argo, Polaris, Kubota and similar products are already in the all season market and probably own the market share at this time. This market seems to be getting saturated with many manufactures making the "all terrain vehicle". Track systems are being made available as accessories to make many of them somewhat snow capable.
 

Melensdad

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mtntopper said:
Argo, Polaris, Kubota and similar products are already in the all season market and probably own the market share at this time. This market seems to be getting saturated with many manufactures making the "all terrain vehicle". Track systems are being made available as accessories to make many of them somewhat snow capable.
The problem with any/all of those vehicles is that none of them is capable of comfortably carrying a family of 4 to 6, or a similar size hunting party or work crew to a jobsite, with their gear. And all of them are marginal for deep snow. In fact to move 6 people an their gear in snow, you'd need 3 Kubota RTVs, each outfitted with Mattracks. Or, you could carry all 6 in one Snow Trac, pile some gear under the bench seats, pile more gear in the unoccupied 7th seat, and stow the remainder on the exterior carry rails and it would take deeper snow than the Kubotas.

Consequently it seems logical to look at worst case scenario, and that is traveling in heavy snow, devising a vehicle that will do that, and then making it do a decent job of traveling in other conditions too.

That logic takes me back to a snowcat, but a snowcat that has tracks on it that will serve other seasons as well.

Now it sure seems like it is not a feasable business venture to start up, but if it could be done, a small vehicle that fits in a standard garage (less than 8' wide, less than 7' tall) would be pretty much ideal. I really think seating 5 or more passengers would be a must since a typical small car can seat 5. I also think it needs to be able to haul gear with those passengers since you'll need your tools, groceries, and supplies no matter where you go!
 

Snowcat Operations

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The local Power company has ATVs with the Mattrax sytem installed. They are ok on 8" snow. Thats pretty much it. if you could desin a track system that is light in weight and very heavy duty then it may be possible to have your all terrain vehicle. The track system would need to be very robust and beable to stay on in most situations that would detrack most snow tracks. The Hagglunds have a very good system but the tracks are VERY heavy and are designed and built like rubber band. No links or splices. Also most people are comfortable with a steering wheel. Anything diffrent tends to scare joe blow public. It would be a project for sure.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
IMO - The only way this would work is to use a molded track of some sort. Grouser bars and mechanical splices ate a maintenance nightmare for the general public. Say 4 "long-track" snowmobile tracks on a Tucker-like vehicle. This will give you a steering wheel (good point) and flotation if the vehicle is kept to a reasonable size/weight. 4 passengers would be max, I think going for a 6-passenger vehicle is upping the stakes too far. I see similarities to airplanes where you can have more seats than weight capacity. IE 4 seats or 2 seats + cargo.

The shape of the track suspension should have an amount of "upside down crown" on it so than when operating on hard surfaces the would length will not be in contact. 4-wheel (track) drive with a manually engaging differential locking system. Similar shape as the Mattracks type systems.

I my mind's eye I see a cross between Big Al's Kristy and a Tucker. Only smaller and lighter. I do think a turbo diesel is a good idea, a small engine (50 hp) with a turbo-normaliser for high altitude (only allow sea level pressure in the intake) could be done for 2-300 lb. Look at all the little VW diesels out there or the European 3-cyl diesels that they have are all over. They're not that heavy.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Av8r3400 said:
IMO - 4 passengers would be max, I think going for a 6-passenger vehicle is upping the stakes too far. I see similarities to airplanes where you can have more seats than weight capacity. IE 4 seats or 2 seats + cargo.

I my mind's eye I see a cross between Big Al's Kristy and a Tucker. Only smaller and lighter. I do think a turbo diesel is a good idea, a small engine (50 hp) with a turbo-normaliser for high altitude (only allow sea level pressure in the intake) could be done for 2-300 lb. Look at all the little VW diesels out there or the European 3-cyl diesels that they have are all over. They're not that heavy.

Just for the record, the Snow Trac ST4 is smaller than the KT7.
The KT7 seats 4.
The ST4 seats 7.
The ST4 uses a standard steering wheel.
The KT7 uses a pilot style steering yoke.
The steering on the ST4 uses virutally no horsepower but does not turn as tight as units with hydraulic or hydrostatic type steering.
The ST4 weights about 2600#
The KT7 weighs about 3200#.
Both have a top speed of roughly 20mph (give or take depending on options)
The ST4 is 6'2" wide
The KT7 is 8'2" wide.
Both are about 12' long.
Both will fit into a standard garage, the KT7 won't have much wiggle room on the sides if you use a 9' wide door.

My opinion is the Tucker system is too expensive and complicated for a personal snow cat. They are also too tall to fit into a standard garage.

Also, as for the track system, it seems to me that to be practical in the snow, a track similar to the one shown by mtntopper would need to be used. It is somewhat more grief than a solid rubber track, but it is probably vastly superior in the snow than a solid rubber molded track.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
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bczoom, Av8r340

Not the perfect snow cat but an interesting project!!!

fronttrack.jpg

Geo A.JPG

Geo B.JPG

Is this your wish vehicle??? Not the best in snow but can get around fair. Put the big mudder tires on for the rest of the year and you have an all terrain vehicle. The rubber tracks are off a snowmobile and the track support and framing for drive system are home built. Cannot sell commercially or you will have to fight with Mattracks over patent infringement rights. Units are being built locally in the east for snowmobile club groomers. Works pretty good if you can stay on the same snow trail all the time. STILL NOT A SNOW CAT!!!! I may have to try to put one together some day, just for laughs and giggles.:D :D

Estimated Cost Of Unit:

Good Used Geo $5,000.00
Home Built Track System $2,500.00
Modify Geo For Tracks $500.00
Lift Kit And Mud Tires $2,000.00

Eatimated Total Cost $10,000.00
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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I think that would simply not work well at all. It strikes me that it is too heavy, it would not work well in deep snow of any type and probably would fail miserably in powder. Perhaps on a groomed trail or on anything packed, or perhaps frozen lakes to get to ice fishing holes, but not off into fields on hills.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Can we just do a cheezy SnowTrac rip-off? What are the legal implications of copying the SnowTrac? I think it is the most "marketable" trac'ed vehicle I've seen. A modern engine and some updates to the body work and you're good to go.
 
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