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No-Knock Upheld by Supreme Court

Was the "No-Knock with a Warrant" decision a good one?

  • Good Decision

    Votes: 1 7.1%
  • Bad Decision

    Votes: 10 71.4%
  • Not my problem, I'm not a criminal.

    Votes: 3 21.4%

  • Total voters
    14
  • Poll closed .

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
At first I thought this would be a good law-enforcement asset. Now I'm not so sure.

What is everyone's opinion on this?

With the rash of "Home Invasion" type crimes, who can tell who is a criminal in a cop costume or an actual cop? What happens if a cop surprises an armed, but completely innocent citizen and gets hurt or killed. The innocent citizen just became a criminal for defending themselves and goes to prison or the chair.

This is a dangerous precedent along the lines of the "Eminent Domain" decision of a few months back. The government is getting way too grabby for my tastes.
 

kensfarm

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
Av8r3400 said:
What is everyone's opinion on this?

Looks like it's time for me to introduce my new line of "Medevil Doors".. remember how they use to make doors.. even 20 men on a "rammer" required quite an effort to break the doors in. Who invented these one-kick and your inside doors anyway? This would def. force them to knock.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
kensfarm said:
Looks like it's time for me to introduce my new line of "Medevil Doors".. remember how they use to make doors.. even 20 men on a "rammer" required quite an effort to break the doors in. Who invented these one-kick and your inside doors anyway? This would def. force them to knock.

...or come in through a window. :pat:

I think the one kick doors were invented by hollywood, to make the leading actors look tough. Have you ever tried and succeeded at kicking in a door in one kick? Especially an entry door. The HULK could do it but not many others.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
If you know how, it is surprisingly easy, Doc. Even with a 2" deadbolt. There is surprisingly little "meat" in a wooden door jam. Now a steel door and jam is another story...

Where can I get one of your "Medevil Doors"? :whistle:
 

jdwilson44

New member
This is addressed to the 37.5% percent of the people who either think that no knock is ok - or isn't their problem. Have you ever read the US Constitution? Lets see - 5th Amendment:

Amendment IV.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.



How many times have you read stories about the police searching the wrong address, or arresting the wrong person, or worse yet shooting the wrong person? Do you really think that further enlargement of police powers (I.E. goverment powers) over the rights of citizens of this country is a good idea? What the hell we already have warrantless wiretaps, renditions to other countries to avoid US laws against torture, why not no-knock searches? Hell once we have all the pieces in place all we will need to have a full recreation of the Nazi state is the concentration camps. The gun control laws were already copied directly from Nazi gun control laws. The current issue Kevlar helmets that our troops and police SWAT teams wear has an uncanny resemblance to the German WWI and WWII helmets. Black uniforms are all the rage for local, state and federal SWAT and special ops teams - why not go all the way and stop screwing around? After all once the goverment controls everything we will finally all be "safe" and we won't have to be responsible ourselves for watching our own communities and policing our own neighborhoods.

I found this the other day at http://www.lewrockwell.com/rossi/rossi12.html:

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail – its roof may shake – the wind may blow through it – the storm may enter – the rain may enter – but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]~ William Pitt[/FONT]​
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Have no fear, America! Despite the claims of alarmists, the United States is not coming underneath the type of steely totalitarian gauntlet where we need fear a knock at the door. No, your Supreme Court has eliminated that fearful scenario. Instead, there will be no knock.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]In its June 15th ruling in Hudson v Michigan, the Supreme Court has basically eviscerated the requirement that there be a knock on the door by authorities before the execution of a search warrant. While the prohibition essentially remains in form, the penalty for the failure to knock has lost its major deterrent force – the exclusionary rule. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Quite simply, what the exclusionary rule did was to exclude from the available evidence at trial any evidence that was obtained from a violation of the standards for execution of a search warrant. One of these search warrant standards is (or more aptly, was) the requirement that police knock and announce themselves. While the court has formerly whittled away at this requirement through the use of certain "exigent circumstances," Hudson effectively lays the practice of knocking in a shallow grave. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]While the death of the knock is in itself troubling enough, the Court’s rationale may be even more troubling. The Court, relying on the ever arbitrary and equally dubious "balancing test," weighed the "deterrence benefits" of the use of the exclusionary rule against its "social costs." Such social calculus always provides an interesting insight into the mind of the Court. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]For the majority, "social costs" consist of such factors as (1) "a constant flood" of legal challenges for alleged failures to observe the knock and announce rule, (2) the risk that "officers would be inclined to wait longer than the law requires" after knocking (and we all know that SWAT team types truly tend to agonize decisions before springing into action), and (3) that the delay after knocking (in the past, three seconds has been viewed by the Court as adequate wait time) provides time for the destruction of evidence and the arming of dangerous suspects. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Conversely, the "deterrence benefits" of the exclusionary rule as a check on rampant police aggression are viewed as minimal. Rather, an aggrieved party who has been the victim of a knock and announce violation can file a civil rights law suit. But even more surreal is the Court’s contention that such law suits might not even be necessary because of the "increasing professionalism of police forces, including a new emphasis on internal police discipline." Who could argue with that?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]One can almost take a perverse pleasure in watching the "originalist" and "textualist" Justice Antonin Scalia hypocritically perform the arbitrary balancing test that girds so many of the Court’s pro-State rulings. It is not explained (if explainable at all) how the supposed "constant flow" of legal challenges to the knock requirement at criminal trial is somehow more onerous to the court system than the constant flow of civil rights law suits which the Court views as a more proper remedy. Of course the real benefit to the aspiring authoritarian state is that those civil rights law suit would most likely be pursued by people in prison. A deterrent to police abuse indeed![/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Likewise, the timing issue surrounding a proper knock is bizarrely treated. One is left to ask how much crack cocaine can be flushed down a toilet if the scruple-ridden cops wait 10 seconds (instead of the permissible three seconds) after knocking and is the preservation of such a paltry amount worth calling in the jack-booted thugs? Additionally, isn’t it the über-ninja style raids that send panicked suspects grabbing for their guns in the first place? What happened to the film noir scenes of the cops telling Mugsy that the jig is up, the joint is surrounded, and he better come out with his hands held high?[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]As an insulting coup de grâce for this injurious constitutional coup d'état, the Court assures us that law enforcement has had Original Sin exorcised at the new and improved police academy. Justice Scalia writes that concerns about police behavior may have been valid in 1980 but that now "we now have increasing evidence that police forces across the United States take the constitutional rights of citizens seriously." While on one level such a statement is worth a gasp and a chortle, on another level Scalia writes the truth – for as constitutional rights are stripped away by the Supreme Court, there are fewer and fewer police behaviors that are violative of the law. By legalizing thuggery, thuggish law enforcement is not only christened but encouraged. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]But the heralding of contemporary law enforcement as the new Soviet man is instructive as to how the Court sees itself. There is no thought of "inalienable rights" or the 9th Amendment. The much-feared "natural law" of Clarence Thomas is not to be found. Instead, with the Hudson decision, the Supreme Court has not only laid a firm foundation for a police state, they have reminded us that we the people are the ruled and they are the rulers. They are the wise balancers of scales. They are the sole guardians of justice. They are the ultimate guarantors of our rights. So help us God.[/FONT]




[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]June 17, 2006[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]C.T. Rossi [send him mail] is an attorney who lives in Washington, D.C.[/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Copyright © 2006 LewRockwell.com[/FONT]



Anybody who supports no-knock should think long and hard about what kind of country they want to live in - if they still have a deep desire to live in a country where the goverment can bust down your door at the slightest provocation, wiretap your every phone conversation without a warrant, invade other countries who have not attacked us first, hold people in prison without charges, etc. I suggest you move because you apparently don't understand why our forefathers died in numerous wars to protect this country. You don't understand what our Founding Fathers were trying to protect when they laid out the Bill of Rights in our Constitution, you don't understand why people who would have rather stayed on their farms and supported their families instead gave up their lives and their livelihoods to fight the American Revolution. There are plenty of countries in the world where you can get the police to knock down your door at the slightest provocation - I am sure somebody who is a cheerleader for unrestrained goverment power would find a home somewhere with that kind of enthusiasm for a police state.​
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Good points JD.

What do you want to do about the drug dealers with lots of guns? How do the police "surpise" these guys? Or do we just have to find other ways to get them?

I'm not being critical, it's just that it is a very difficult issue and it may not be black and white in everyone's eyes.

Personally, I support the good intentions of law enforcement but also understand that accidents and mistakes can happen. It's a big ugly gray area to me.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
No-Knock entry will just provide more loop holes in the system to allow a good criminal defense attorney additional ways to put the criminals back on the streets and keep them out of jail. One miscue by law enforcement always seems to prevent and eliminate jail time for the criminal. How much suspicion or evidence must prevail to allow for no-knock entry? It will just be another point for the defense lawyers to argue and prove the police wrong in a criminal trial. We need to enforce existing laws to the fullest before enacting more laws that will in the end not have any teeth.

Just my thoughts on enacting more laws that may become more of a problem than they are worth.....:confused:
 

jdwilson44

New member
PBinWA said:
Good points JD.

What do you want to do about the drug dealers with lots of guns? How do the police "surpise" these guys? Or do we just have to find other ways to get them?

I'm not being critical, it's just that it is a very difficult issue and it may not be black and white in everyone's eyes.

Personally, I support the good intentions of law enforcement but also understand that accidents and mistakes can happen. It's a big ugly gray area to me.

I used to think the same way - over the last year or so I have been doing a lot of thinking about this - and a lot of reading and I guess the best way I can say this is: why do we care so much about "getting" them? What is the big deal if somebody wants to shoot themselves up with drugs and kill themself? Isn't that their right? I have never understood the need to take drugs myself, I don't smoke, I drink very rarely, and I have never taken any form of "illegal" drugs because I just didn't want to. But after watching what the goverment has done to our country and all the money that has been spent on fighting the "war on drugs" I have had to ask myself "why do we care so much?" What is the point? I mean this seriously. If all of the drugs that are illegal now were made legal ( they were once you know and we did not have the problems with drug addiction that we have now) then the alleged need for "no-knock" would go away because there would be no more armed drug dealers.

We have been trying to fight this so called drug war for decades now - and it still isn't working. We also tried it once before - it was called Prohibition - and that did not work either.

A while back I read something online that made me start thinking about this - there is a woman named Loretta Nall running for governor of Alabama - on her bio page http://www.campaignsitebuilder.com/templates/displayfiles/tmpl63.asp?SiteID=804&PageID=11481&Trial=false - she talks about her introduction to the drug war. She makes the point that when she was a child the town drunk would have been treated compassionately by the town itself - the church might have stepped in to help or somebody locally would have taken care of it in the community. Now with the drug war you would most likely be taken away by a SWAT team, locked up in jail and be stuck with a record for rest of your life - for taking a drug that harmed nobody but yourself.

You have to ask yourself - does this sound sane to you? The so called drug war obviously isn't working - the prisons are filling up ( according to everything I have read with so called 'non-violent offenders' means drug cases) - the police departments in almost every town have their own SWAT teams or are part of a regional one, the goverment spends billions on allegedly fighting drugs, and constantly infringes on the rights of regular citizens, etc. We invaded Afghanistan and got rid of the Taliban - and guess what - opium poppies are growing like crazy over there again - so if we are fighting an alleged drug war why don't we get rid of the poppies? Guess why many in South America hate us? Because we give billions of aid to fight the drug war to goverments which oppress their people - people who grow coca and marijuana so that they can feed their families.

As much as I would like to see it go away I do not think that you will ever get rid of the human desire for drugs - there are only two ways to control it - either you do it thru fear or you do it thru understanding and compassion. The goverment is trying fear - and it isn't working. So they keep trying more and more fear - which makes me wonder where will it end. Will we jail parents whose kids take drugs? Will we execute drug users ( Islamic law as practiced in some countries dicates that - and it still does not stop it) How far are we willing to go? I think Loretta Nall has a good point when she says that people with these problems used to handled locally.

Over the last few months I have been doing a lot of reading at www.lewrockwell.com - one of the columnists I really like is Butler Schaffer - somewhere in his column archives I believe he has commented on the drug war - and it is basically a violation of individual rights. My opinion on this is that I do not see why I should be oppressed by the goverment because somebody else chooses to fill their body with drugs. If somebody wants to kill themselves then that is their business. I shouldn't have to support them when they turn into a vegetable, support their drug treatment - nor pay for all the goverment bureacracy that springs up around all these efforts.

Butler Schaffer archives:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/shaffer/shaffer-arch.html
 

jdwilson44

New member
Forgot to add this to my previous post -
If you want another example of how this country has been affected by the drug wars and the growth of police powers do a Google search for "zero tolerance policies". You will find numerous examples of school age children - some as young as 8 years old - who were expelled, arrested, etc. for doing simple things like bringing aspirin to school and doing simple kid stuff like making a gun with their fingers and going 'bang bang'. This sort of stuff is just screwed up and insane to me - but it is all just a byproduct - like no-knock - of the drug war.
 
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