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Why Cars are Difficult to Repair

Deadly Sushi

The One, The Only, Sushi
SUPER Site Supporter
Great article I thought!


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120671829721371953.html?mod=hpp_us_inside_today
Last weekend, I had to replace a burned out headlight on my daughter's Chevrolet HHR. I figured this was a do-it-yourself job. So I went to my local auto-parts store, scored a new halogen bulb, went home, and popped the hood.
Roughly 45 minutes and a few choice words later, I got the job done. In the course of replacing one burned-out bulb, I used a socket wrench and pliers to partially remove a plastic liner inside the left front wheel well. I took out about a half dozen fasteners, of two different kinds. Then I had to work my hand through a tangle of wires to get at the offending bulb, disconnect it, twist it out, and then replace it. I did all this by feel, because I couldn't see my hand, wedged inside the fender between the half removed plastic liner and the wires and metal around the light.



When I was done, I had to toss everything I had been wearing into the wash, since I'd wound up on my back under the car during the process of detaching and reattaching the fender liner.
Yes, I read the directions in the owners' manual and did what they instructed. Let's just say the manual understated the degree of difficulty by half.

It turns out amateurs like me aren't the only ones wondering why some of today's vehicles are such bears to repair. The difficulty of replacing broken parts or restoring vehicles damaged in collisions is a growing concern to the auto service and collision trades and the insurance industry.
"Vehicles are becoming more and more difficult to repair," says Denise Caspersen, manager of the collision division for the Automotive Service Association.
In their quest to make cars safer, lighter and more fuel efficient, car makers are using more exotic materials in the bodies of vehicles, such as high-strength steels, aluminum, steel-plastic sandwiches. That presents a challenge to body repair shops, because technicians now can't just assume that the metal they are cutting or welding is old-fashioned steel.
Modern vehicles also have more airbags, and more sophisticated electronics under the hood and throughout the body. The complexity of repairing a badly crashed vehicle has led to a rise in the number of vehicles that are declared total losses by insurance companies, rather than repaired, Ms. Caspersen says.


Tom Calloway, manager of fixed operations for AutoNation Inc., the largest U.S. auto retailer, says in an email that routine repairs can get "pretty serious" given the proliferation of new technology such as continuously variable transmissions, electric steering or onboard computer networks managing various functions.
Throw in a hybrid drive system, and things get even more interesting. Auto service technicians are going back to school to learn how to work safely on hybrid systems.
The concern about repair complexity is spurring efforts by the insurance and repair industries to persuade car makers to make ease of repair a higher priority.
One group called the Research Council for Automobile Repairs (www.rcar.org) is planning to launch a Web site that will offer vehicle designers data aimed at encouraging them to make vehicles more repair friendly, says Joe Nolan, senior vice president for the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety Vehicle Research Center.
The IIHS isn't directly involved in repairability issues, he says. But the Institute has highlighted the problem of high repair costs in its tests of vehicle bumpers.
Auto makers, as is often the case, must juggle competing demands. When it's time to change a light bulb or an oil filter, I wish I had an old-fashioned car where you could open up the hood, and see the driveway through the big spaces between the body and the engine. But when I go to the fuel pump, or try to find a parking space, I want a car that's light and efficient -- which means all the bits and pieces need to be very close together under the hood.
The drive to reduce weight by making cars more compact will only get more intense as auto makers strive to achieve the new 35 miles per gallon fleet average fuel-economy standard.
Still, car makers are responding to the service and insurance industry's pleas.
Toyota Motor Corp. spokesman Bill Kwong says in an email that Toyota is also designing vehicles with "front crush boxes," that are designed so they can be unbolted after a collision and replaced. Toyota is also designing headlamps to be more easily replaced.
General Motors Corp., about five years ago, intensified efforts to consider ease of repair during the vehicle-design process, assigning engineers from the service operation to work alongside vehicle designers and engineers, says Joseph Fitzsimmons Jr., chief engineer for the GM Service and Parts Operations.
GM engineers now can use a virtual hand, wielding a virtual wrench, to test whether a design that exists only in digital form on a screen will result in a hard time for a mechanic, he says.
The result, Mr. Fitzsimmons says, is that GM is now designing instrument panels so that there are access panels a mechanic, or do-it-yourselfer, could remove easily to get access to fuses or other components, rather than disassembling the dashboard.
For collision-repair specialists, GM designed its new large pickups so that the frames can be cut in sections so that only damaged pieces need to be replaced. The same trucks are designed so that a new front end can be installed without replacing the entire frame of the truck, he says.
"It does get more challenging when you've got a smaller physical space" in a small vehicle, Mr. Fitzsimmons says. "But it's not impossible."
 

American Woman

New member
Site Supporter
Shade tree machanics are already rare!
Years ago I could listen to a car and say what might be wrong with it. But not anymore.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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Several years ago I bought a car for one of my salesmen. It needed a new battery after a few more years and it was customary to have the warehouse crew do simple jobs like that during slack time. I just happened to be walking by the loading dock and I saw the car, parked in the building, up on a jack stand, front wheel removed and laying on the ground. I knew it only needed a battery so I inquired. Seems to install the battery in this model Chrysler, the wheel had to be removed, along with the inside wheel well liner. Took a couple hours to change a simple car battery. It nuts.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
Several years ago I bought a car for one of my salesmen. It needed a new battery after a few more years and it was customary to have the warehouse crew do simple jobs like that during slack time. I just happened to be walking by the loading dock and I saw the car, parked in the building, up on a jack stand, front wheel removed and laying on the ground. I knew it only needed a battery so I inquired. Seems to install the battery in this model Chrysler, the wheel had to be removed, along with the inside wheel well liner. Took a couple hours to change a simple car battery. It nuts.

Chrysler Cirrus/Dodge Stratus, made by Mitsubishi, is the model. My mom has one of these. Nice enough car, but a nightmare to work on.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Shade tree machanics are already rare!
Years ago I could listen to a car and say what might be wrong with it. But not anymore.

Now you can just plug in an OBD-II scanner and it will tell you what's wrong with it. My wife's Envoy with On-star emails monthly diagnostic reports including tire pressure and oil life quality.

It's a mixed blessing.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Several years ago I bought a car for one of my salesmen. It needed a new battery after a few more years and it was customary to have the warehouse crew do simple jobs like that during slack time. I just happened to be walking by the loading dock and I saw the car, parked in the building, up on a jack stand, front wheel removed and laying on the ground. I knew it only needed a battery so I inquired. Seems to install the battery in this model Chrysler, the wheel had to be removed, along with the inside wheel well liner. Took a couple hours to change a simple car battery. It nuts.
Hey, at least they found it...
I went to replace the battery in one of Mrs. Zoom's cars and I couldn't find the darn thing. I looked from the top, bottom, both sides... nothing.
I hated to do it, especially since Mrs. Zoom was there, but I had to pull out the owners manual. It's like asking for directions....
No wonder I couldn't find it.
Owners Manual paraphrased
Open the back door of the sedan.
Remove the 2 screws that hold the seat bottom.
Lift the seatbelts out of the way
Remove the seat
Unclamp battery
...

The battery was actually under the rear seat.
 

rback33

Hangin in Tornado Alley
SUPER Site Supporter
Hey, at least they found it...
I went to replace the battery in one of Mrs. Zoom's cars and I couldn't find the darn thing. I looked from the top, bottom, both sides... nothing.
I hated to do it, especially since Mrs. Zoom was there, but I had to pull out the owners manual. It's like asking for directions....
No wonder I couldn't find it.
Owners Manual paraphrased
Open the back door of the sedan.
Remove the 2 screws that hold the seat bottom.
Lift the seatbelts out of the way
Remove the seat
Unclamp battery
...

The battery was actually under the rear seat.

Wow. I would not like that. Is it completely sealed I hope? I mean having that THERE where it could fly out and leak all over me while trapped in the wreckage by my seatbelt makes me feel warm and fuzzy.. not to mention needing a jump start..:pat:
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
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Wow. I would not like that. Is it completely sealed I hope? I mean having that THERE where it could fly out and leak all over me while trapped in the wreckage by my seatbelt makes me feel warm and fuzzy.. not to mention needing a jump start..:pat:
The battery has the normal brackets to hold it down. There's a vent tube from the battery that exits out the bottom of the car.
They did put some aux terminals in the engine compartment so you can jump it or charge it remotely.
 

rback33

Hangin in Tornado Alley
SUPER Site Supporter
The battery has the normal brackets to hold it down. There's a vent tube from the battery that exits out the bottom of the car.
They did put some aux terminals in the engine compartment so you can jump it or charge it remotely.

Just think of all that extra copper wire it takes to do all that...:smileywac
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
The battery has the normal brackets to hold it down. There's a vent tube from the battery that exits out the bottom of the car.
They did put some aux terminals in the engine compartment so you can jump it or charge it remotely.

Sounds like a couple of mine. Ya got a Benz?

It is a great place for a battery. It stays clean. And often, in the winter, with the car in the sun, the interior is much warmer than the exterior, allowing for a larger ampacity available for starting. A warmer battery provides more juice. No need for an electric battery warmer. Much better location than the engine compartement. The trunk is not a bad spot either. Two of mine have them in the trunk.
 

NorthernRedneck

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Had a '91 Chev Lumina Z34 years ago. That thing was a real pain to work on. 9.5 hrs to change an altenator. That's right! 9.5hrs.

It required jacking up the front of the car, removing front passenger side tire, taking apart 90% of the front suspension including removing the entire front strut/spring assembly. Then, Once we had all that done, we could access a little trap door hidden behind the strut that was barely big enough for a small hand to fit through. Then try to undo the bolts by feel as there was no way to see what you're doing. Allot of choice words also come in handy for this type of procedure.

The engine was a 3.4 dual overhead cam which meant that whatever you would normally find near the top of the engine had to be mounted down below due to the cams uptop. No room to work on anything under the hood.
 

rback33

Hangin in Tornado Alley
SUPER Site Supporter
Sounds like a serpentine on a 95 grand am... You actually had to loosen motor mounts and shift it around. First time took my brother and I about 8 full hours.... learned some tricks, so the second time we blew through it in about 2 1/2 hours. Still sucked though.
 

EastTexFrank

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Several years ago I bought a car for one of my salesmen. It needed a new battery after a few more years and it was customary to have the warehouse crew do simple jobs like that during slack time. I just happened to be walking by the loading dock and I saw the car, parked in the building, up on a jack stand, front wheel removed and laying on the ground. I knew it only needed a battery so I inquired. Seems to install the battery in this model Chrysler, the wheel had to be removed, along with the inside wheel well liner. Took a couple hours to change a simple car battery. It nuts.

A friend of mine's wife had one of those. The first time he had to change the battery, he couldn't find it. To cut a long story short, when he finally got it changed out, turned the key and it fired up, he drove it straight to the dealer and traded it for a car with the battery in the "normal" place.
 

Deadly Sushi

The One, The Only, Sushi
SUPER Site Supporter
BMW= Black Man's Wheels

ha!

Bavarian Murder Weapons
Born Moderately Wealthy
Big Mexican Weiner
Black Mans Willy
Brought Me Worries
Beats My Wood​
 

ncroamer65

New member
I went on a trip to Detroit to an auto plant back in the 80s and what I
saw on the tour told me that I might as well forget about doing any
repair work on any future car or truck. The engineers only design these
things, they don't have to do repair or service work on the design.
May they spend eternity working on the cars they design.:applause: :applause: :applause:
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
How's the Audi been?
Almost as finicky and costly as the Mercedes. We got rid of both MB's. Mrs. Zoom went with the Audi A6 (and now has a pair of them) and I got rid of the ML320 and got a GMC truck.

The Quattro is fantastic in our terrain and weather but the maintenance is no longer worth the luxury. They eat brake rotors and front CV boots in particular.

We're thinking of scrapping the Audi's and going with Honda's instead. We also have a Honda Odyssey that's run nearly flawless and have had a Honda in the driveway for almost 20 years and they're always the most dependable.
 

fogtender

Now a Published Author
Site Supporter
Well for what it is worth, cars have gotten easier to work on verses the older versions. It may not look like it, but the 70's verses current are a world ahead. I can do a computer diagnostics on it and it will tell me what is wrong (98% of the time). The engines are generally good for hundreds of thousands of miles verses about 80,000 that the pre-mid 90's were good for.

There is less than 70% of the electicial wiring that was in the pre '90 models. Most of the cars use a few power wires and a "Modem" line to contact the different computer controled modules to let it know what to do. So instead of a "wire" for each function in your car, you only have a few that do the jobs of the many.

When you lift the hood, you see lots of plastic that doesn't rust out like the metal did, the rust proofing is far better now than twenty years ago.

Most cars only need oil/filter changes and run pretty much fault free (there are exceptions which I can make a living on still if I want to) now days, and that makes them a better car. Some are better than others, but overall, the miles you put on now verses twenty years ago is a lot cheaper per mile spent on maintance....except for the gas/diesel part costs.

An oil change on a pre 80's car/truck took an afternoon to find all the grease zerks to grease, now there is only two or three. The grease points are sealed better and last longer than the ones that got greased every oil change. Wheel bearings used to be taken apart every 50,000 miles to clean and repack. Now they are sealed bearing assemblies that last well over a hundred thousand miles and are quick to replace.

Nope, I would say they are easier to repair, because you have to do it a lot less often, they just look scary.
 

fogtender

Now a Published Author
Site Supporter
Well for what it is worth, cars have gotten easier to work on verses the older versions. It may not look like it, but the 70's verses current are a world ahead. I can do a computer diagnostics on it and it will tell me what is wrong (98% of the time). The engines are generally good for hundreds of thousands of miles verses about 80,000 that the pre-mid 90's were good for.

There is less than 70% of the electicial wiring that was in the pre '90 models. Most of the cars use a few power wires and a "Modem" line to contact the different computer controled modules to let it know what to do. So instead of a "wire" for each function in your car, you only have a few that do the jobs of the many.

Replacing spark plugs use to happen every 12,000 miles or so, that is about 70,000 or so now. Points were easy to change if you did it right, they lasted eight to ten thousand miles before replacing. Electronic ingnitions now last the life of the car...

What screws them up is when you jump someone elses dead car with yours running, the surge from thier car starting and dead battery put a sharp jolt to your electronic system and causes it to fry or change your computer's settings. If you jump a car, turn the engine off, hook up the terminals and have them start their car, then unhook your cables and start your car to avoid the voltage spikes affecting your system.

When you lift the hood, you see lots of plastic that doesn't rust out like the metal did, the rust proofing is far better now than twenty years ago.

Most newer cars only need oil/filter changes and run pretty much fault free (there are exceptions which I can make a living on still if I want to) now days, and that makes them a better car. Some are better than others, but overall, the miles you put on now verses twenty years ago is a lot cheaper per mile spent on maintance....except for the gas/diesel costs.

An oil change on a pre 80's car/truck took an afternoon to find all the grease zerks to grease, now there is only two or three. The grease points are sealed better and last longer than the ones that got greased every oil change. Wheel bearings used to be taken apart every 50,000 miles to clean and repack. Now they are sealed bearing assemblies that last well over a hundred thousand miles and are quick to replace.

Nope, I would say they are easier to repair, because you have to do it a lot less often, they just look scary.
 
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Trakternut

Active member
Foggy, you're right both times! My parents' '02 Buick also has the battery beneath the rear seat.
The newer stuff looks like a dang nightmare, but, once you remove a few pieces of shrouding, things are pretty much in the open, for example the alternator. I have changed the one in my wife's '95 Blazer twice now. Took about half an hour both times.
I had a '95 Plymouth Voyager with the 3.0. Belt tensioner bearing went bad. Chrystler dealer said 2 hrs labor to change it and the serpentine belt. Only one bolt holding it on. I said I'd give it a shot myself. Changed the tensioner and belt in about 20-25 mins. Instead of $250, I did it for $120.
I still do, however, love the old vehicles. I liked the style better.
 

fogtender

Now a Published Author
Site Supporter
Foggy, you're right both times! My parents' '02 Buick also has the battery beneath the rear seat.
The newer stuff looks like a dang nightmare, but, once you remove a few pieces of shrouding, things are pretty much in the open, for example the alternator. I have changed the one in my wife's '95 Blazer twice now. Took about half an hour both times.
I had a '95 Plymouth Voyager with the 3.0. Belt tensioner bearing went bad. Chrystler dealer said 2 hrs labor to change it and the serpentine belt. Only one bolt holding it on. I said I'd give it a shot myself. Changed the tensioner and belt in about 20-25 mins. Instead of $250, I did it for $120.
I still do, however, love the old vehicles. I liked the style better.

Must have been an echo...

Didn't say I didn't like the older cars, just the newer ones don't need the TLC like they use to. Course the new ones don't have the class or ride of the older ones either.
 
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