"Spying on your kid" or Good Parenting?

Melensdad · Mar 31, 2006

OK folks, we all know that our world is increasingly mobile, and that life is not as innocent or friendly as it used to be.

There are some new products available to track your children. You can pinpoint their exact location by GPS, their cell phones can send you an automatic Text Message or Email if they are driving too fast, or you can get an alert if they stray into a geographic area that you don't want them to go to.

Parents are supposed to know where their kids are. But let's be honest, a 16 year old with a car is not always going to be rational, is going to occasionally test some limits conduct, etc.

So what is crossing the line between unreasonable spying on your children versus just being a good parent and knowing where they are/what they are doing?

Check out this service from: Clarity Communications Systems

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]Whereabouts[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]™
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]A Premium Child Locator and Family Safety Service
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Whereabouts is a Child Locator System that enables parents to use their cell phones or the Internet to locate their children -- or other family members – in a secure, non-intrusive manner. For example, parents are alerted when their children arrive home from school, move inside or outside a pre-determined area, or their teenager is speeding. With Whereabouts, parents have the security of knowing their loved ones are safe ... without having to make dozens of phone calls to find out where they are.
Key product features include: [/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif] [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Instant notification of potentially unsafe conditions such as speeding or crossing into “off-limits” zones [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Emergency notification mechanism[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Instant communication with family members throughout the day [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Sans-serif,sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Personal Navigation System including direction, turn-by-turn navigation, points of interest, and maps[/SIZE][/FONT] [/FONT]

Doc · Mar 31, 2006

Sure sounds like it could be handy. But ...kids would figure out a way around it if they really wanted to. The simple solution that came to me was for them to leave the phone within the 'allowed area'. Assuming they knew they were being tracked ...and they'd know that the first time you had to confront them with what you know.

I'm glad mine are grown and it is not a concern for me at this point.

We did have a device which allowed recording of all phone calls when the kids were teenagers. My wife and I discussed using it but decided not to. It sure seemed to be an invasion of the kids privacy. I'm glad no situation came up where we had to reconsider that decision.

Melensdad · Mar 31, 2006

Here is an article about the system. It is in the Chicago Sun Times (link to author below).

I guess that the first thing a "good" parent would do is NOT tell their child the cell phone is being tracked. And when a "good" parent got the information then I would suppose they would be very careful about how they used the information (meaning they would not disclose that the child's cellphone sent them an automated message).

March 31, 2006

BY HOWARD WOLINSKY Business Reporter

GPS chips in cell phones can do a heck of a lot more than help 911 workers locate you in an emergency, as Jim Fuentes' son Eric discovered while zooming down a highway at 85 mph.

The elder Fuentes received an SMS "speed alert" on his phone telling him his son was booking it. The same alert was available via an e-mail or on a Web site,

And there's more to this system, known as "Whereabouts, Family Tracking and Navigation" developed by Aurora-based Clarity Communication Systems Inc., a start-up founded by Fuentes and seven other former Lucent wireless software engineers in 1998.

Whereabouts, now being tested by a Midwestern wireless company, also enables parents to set up "geo-zones," which send out alerts when the phone enters or leaves a defined area. Fuentes said the system, for example, can be used to see if a child is home in time for curfew.

Subscribers can use Whereabouts to check on the location of others on a phone list, whether stationary or mobile. A button can be pushed to tell other subscribers when a user has arrived at a location. And the phone has an SOS button that can be used to call for help.

Lisa Carter, vice president of corporate development and marketing at Clarity, agreed the tracking system potentially could compromise some users' privacy. "We can't control how the phones are used," she said.

Within a family, she said minors provided with phones by their parents would have to comply with the tracking system. However, she said Clarity is developing a "privacy manager" that would require users to request or refuse tracking.

Carter said phone users would quickly realize they are being tracked because the phone interface has a map showing where users are located.

Carter said other products on the market would be more easily used for spying than cell phones that need to be regularly recharged.

Clarity is part of the emerging market of location-based services built on basic location information available on most cell phones to help 911 operators.

Robert Gourdine, director of marketing of the North American Internet & Wireless Business Unit of Chicago-based Navteq, the leading provider of digital map data, said there are "huge business opportunities" for companies such as Clarity that develop location-based services.

"The industry is moving beyond location and navigation. You can overlay any type of service on top of location information, and create something new," he said.

Clarity found its way into the location-based services business as a result of developing gear for Lucent aimed at helping wireless phone companies locate phones as required under the federal mandate for 911 services on cell phones.

Leo Modica, Clarity's principal engineer, said "We discovered to our surprise how accurate the GPS devices were on cell phones. They were accurate in the best case to within 5 to 10 feet."

Fuentes said cellular companies were open to new ideas since the new location systems required billions of dollars of investment and would only be used for 911 calls on average once every two years per customer.

Clarity got into the location business in early 2003 with Navigator, a GPS-based service on a cell phone, which provides directions, points of interests and turn-by-turn, voiced-guided navigation. The service is available for Nextel customers for a $9.99 activation fee plus $6.95 per month. For more information, go to www.way-to-go.net.

Navigator morphed into Whereabouts, which last year won an award for personal security in Navteq's Global LBS Challenge, a competition designed to encourage location technology innovation and reward it with cash prizes and Navteq software licenses. Clarity is a semi-finalist in the business applications category in this year's LBS Challenge with its Where2Talk product, which combines Clarity's push-to-talk technology with location services.

Subscribers who use Where2Talk can see current locations of other users on a contact list. The service has a PC-based Dispatch Console that maps a team, and enables a dispatcher to contact team members based on their location, pushing them directions or other information onto their handsets.

Bill Jenkins, vice president of business development at Clarity, said Where2Talk is aimed at builders, delivery services and other companies with "deployed work forces," but could be used by families and friends to keep track of each other.

hwolinsky@suntimes.com

Dargo · Mar 31, 2006

Bob, where is the model that works with Cingular? Where I live and mostly travel, Nextel isn't worth a darn. Believe me, I shop constantly since I don't sign any contracts and we can now take our numbers with us.

BigAl · Mar 31, 2006

So where is the trust Bob??? I know there are a lot of temptations out there for young kids but good communications and trust is essential between a parent and their child . I knew the results of my actions if I screwed up in my younger days . Mom or Dad had no problem with discipline if necessary. Did I turn me into a crazy killing machine or cause mental problems in my adult life . I don’t think so, but I do seem to have a thing for Kristi snowcats . We sat down to dinner a 5 o’clock every night and talked .If we missed that time , oh well.... They don’t do that much anymore . The TV does the talking . This new “proper way” to raise and discipline a child is a bunch of crap . It does not work and it has been proven now by time . There is little or no respect for adults by younger people . Did you ever call the friends of your parents by the first name ??? How about your Teachers??? They do now . But not in my home .
I guess my “caveman like” ways must work . I have 3 kids .All college educated, all have jobs , No Drugs and they actually come over or call just to chat .The youngest is 19 and looking to buy her 1st home and she is doing it on her own .
If I needed to know where my kids were going ,I just asked . Most often they just told me ,without even being asked .
I kinda got off target here but what did we do before cell phones being used as locators??

Melensdad · Mar 31, 2006

Allen . . . you were raised the way I was raised. My daughter is being brought up in a house where we eat dinner together as a family 95% of the time. But I gather from her friends that our family is not the typical family anymore.

I also believe that children today are exposed to far more than we were exposed to, have more temptations, and have far greater mobility with far fewer expected consequences. Communities have become far more annonymous. If I stepped out of line when I was a kid, I could expect a neighbor or someone else to contact my parents. That doesn't happen much now.

Dargo . . . I dunno if/when the service will be expanded.

My daughter is just 11 years old. I'm still trying to figure things out and looking for advice from others.

Junkman · Mar 31, 2006

Have it installed on the Lovely Mrs_B's phone and don't tell her. They you will learn if the service really works and if it gives any useful information. I think that it is a great idea. Junk....

Melensdad · Mar 31, 2006

Junkman, we actually use the NEXTEL system of tracking for our truck drivers. It does not have some of the features that the system in the article has, but it is a great work tool.

We have the ability to pull up a computer screen that pinpoints our trucks on a map. If the driver is lost (happens more frequently than I care to admit) then we can tell him where he is, and how to get where he is supposed to be. We also use it to provide better customer service when the customers call and are in need of product in a hurry we can give them a reasonable estimate of the amount of time it will be before our truck will arrive, or we can see if the truck can be re-routed to put that customer in front of other delieveries without inconveniencing too many other customers. Etc. It is very useful. But like I said, it does not have some of the 'monitoring' functions like sending messages if the driver is speeding, or if the driver strays out of the 'authorized' area.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Mar 31, 2006

Trust but verify. Resist the urge to let your children know they are being tracked.

It's nice to know that you can find your child if they are misplaced.

I remember the time my teenaged sister went missing for 6-8 hours. My dad drove around the town in a fury looking for her. I think having the ability to find out where she is would have been a lot easier on his blood pressure.

Of course, in those days we didn't have cell phones. Today that whole bad night would have been solved by a phone call to her phone.

It's an ever changing world. You can hold on to the old world for as long as you want but eventually you just have to learn to adapt. Same with parenting and all the other stuff.

Before there were cars all you had to worry about was that your kids walked away some where (or maybe rode a horse). Same stress - different technology.

beds · Mar 31, 2006

I've been down this path. Years ago MSN would capture logs (it still does if it is set that way). The issue for us was whether we should be going through the logs to see what's going on in his life. I took a look at a few, and it was lots of swearing and bragging and treating friends like garbage (kind of like most people around here

). But that was enough. Definitely at some point you have to let them go, tell them you trust them and want that to continue and be open when they tell you ANYTHING. That was my son, when it's my daughter at that age, I dunno!

Kwiens · Mar 31, 2006

I'd use it!!

Trust but VERIFY!!

It's all part of the process of growing up. Our kids today are growing up in a different world than I and my wife did. Society is not out to help and protect them. If I did something wrong and my neighbor saw me do it, I was disciplined by my neighbor. I also was disciplined when I got home because my neighbor would call my parents.

We did monitor our high school daughter's phone calls and MSN convo's. And we will do the same with our son. Parents have a responsiblity to be involved in their children's life. Each parent must make that decision as to the level of involvement.

Kevin in Kansas

Snowcat Operations · Mar 31, 2006

My son already knows I will be tracking his loacation and speed in his vehicle. From what I am told it will reduce his insurance and he is all for that. (he has to pay his own insurnace). So from day one when he told me he wanted a car I told him up front what I was going to do. At first he was upset but then I told him that was what it would take to get me to sign off on his license. If not he can wait till he was 18 before he got it. His attitude changed instantly! No problem. Also First speeding ticket and the License is gone for 6 months to a year. Zero tolerance!

REDDOGTWO · Mar 31, 2006

I really do not think that the world is that much worse off than when we were kids. Just different. Information is more readily available.

My main concern is their ability to provide as good as life style for themselves and families that we were able to. My son for example dropped out of college as a junior, now working nights at target. At his age, I was married, owned a duplex and working on more property. I also had money in the bank.

Trust them.

The main thing is to forget how you were in your teenage years.

I know that my kids were a lot better than I was, or maybe I just do not know all.

nixon · Mar 31, 2006

REDDOGTWO said:
I really do not think that the world is that much worse off than when we were kids. Just different. Information is more readily available.

I don't remember metal detectors ,and security guards as the accepted norms at the school I went to . That's not the case today . You're right, things Are different .

Melensdad · Oct 17, 2006

Interesting little tidbit occurred today. Nextel demonstrated a new program to us today. It involves a computer program that works with the Nextel/Sprint system and allows you to set up 'off limit' areas and notification proximity areas.

For example, if your child gets within 500' of a house that you don't want your child to go to, the phone sends you an email of its location and the time. You can set up different boundaries, you can set up authorized routes of travel, etc. All sorts of interesting options.

The system is developed for commercial trucking, delivery, etc applications and can be used to notify employers if employees are going home while on the job, etc. It can also be used to notify customers when a delievery or service person is approaching their location, etc.

California · Oct 17, 2006

Bob, did you see this news story? I though of your attempts to keep your kid sheltered as soon as I saw it.

In short: a 13 year old Junior Hi girl briefly hosted a Myspace group that she named "People who want to stab Bush" or something - she said she doesn't remember the exact name because she soon changed it. "After an eighth-grade history lesson in which she learned that threatening the president is against the law, Julia said she changed the group name to "So Bush is an idiot but hey what else is new?" "

So she's ignorant (8th grade!) but not stupid. After Jr Hi she started in the gifted student's program in high school. Same as my two daughters, same high school and all, except mine were interested in ecology instead of politics.

My daughters never told me if they ever created such a rucus (I think not) but 40+ years ago my little sister sure did when she started fundraisers there (same school) to fund SNCC voter registration drives in Mississippi. I'm pretty sure that made the papers and had freedom of speech issues.

Ok, back on-topic. Months later the Bush administration sent two Secret Service agents who pulled this girl out of Molecular Biology last Wednesday and spoke harshly to her. They weren't there to take her in, just to simply terrorize her.

She has already said she realized she did something stupid and soon rectified it, in fact she abandoned Myspace, 'too juvenile', when she finished junior high.

I think an issue here is whether the power of government should be used to intimidate a citizen when there is no intention to prosecute.

And - do we really know at all times what our daughters are up to? Especially the bright ones!

Link - Yahoo Article

And - the local newspaper, a little more detail. see:
sacbee.com/111/story/38768.html (May require free registration)

I think you have to teach your kids good values so they arrive at their own decisions showing prudence and good sense. You can't possibly imagine everything they will be exposed to but they should illustrate good character, that you have helped shape, wherever they find themselves. I think that radio device is fine for a driver on the clock but not for a kid. (unless he/she is already on some kind of probation).

HGM · Oct 18, 2006

California said:
I think you have to teach your kids good values so they arrive at their own decisions showing prudence and good sense. You can't possibly imagine everything they will be exposed to but they should illustrate good character, that you have helped shape, wherever they find themselves. I think that radio device is fine for a driver on the clock but not for a kid. (unless he/she is already on some kind of probation).

Sticky topic, but I agree with this phrase the most... I guess it depends on the child.. I wouldnt think twice about having something like this on my niece, but never on my kid... I trust he is better behaved(than even I was), and will allow him to make his own judgements and mistakes, like i did... I'm noticing now that he is a little more dependant on my help with things than I would like.. Its part of growing up to make your own choices, with a safety net, they are more likely to live thoughtlessly because someone will step in if they are wrong.. :myopinion:

Doc · Oct 18, 2006

I have to agree Greg. You lead by example. If the child has broken the rules then you use the phone technology to track them and alert you if they stray. But they deserve full trust until they prove otherwise.
If you track them but don't tell them until after they've been caught I think you will loose the childs trust. I also believe they will find ways to get around any gadget you can buy to monitor them (just leave the phone at school or at a friends house when you want to go off the allowed path).
My kids are grown. I resisted the urge to use the technology available back when they were teens and I'm glad I did. Like Greg said, my kids turned out better than I did, in the sense that they have never gotten into the trouble I did, or done plain ole stupid stuff as the old man did. They have turned into adults I can be very proud of.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Oct 18, 2006

Trust but verify.

dmccarty · Nov 6, 2006

Interesting topic.

Most of the appends are concerning what the kid will do. Hence the Trust and Verify comments. Right now I'm not concerned what the kids do but what others will try to do to the kids. The ability to track them would be a very good thing.

But when do you give the kids cell phones?

On our land I would hope my kids will eventually walk and explore the woods like I did when I was young. But as a safety measure it would sure be nice to be able to call them home or see where they are at a given moment. This would have saved my parents quite a bit of grief when I should have been home but I was out and about.

What they access on the Internet is just a whole another ball of wax.

Later,
Dan

"Spying on your kid" or Good Parenting?

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