Motor swap ?

cooper · Feb 28, 2006

First time on posting so I will start with a strange question. Has any one thought about putting a Sabaru flat apposed 4 cylinder liquid moter in there snow trac ?It would be nice to have a good water supplied heater in the cab. Not to mension my wife is a little tough on the VW moters. Does any one know of a adaptor plate to bolt to the VW tranny? I would appericate all thoughts on this.

thanks Paul Cooper

BigAl · Feb 28, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Cooper ,

Let me be the first to say welcome . You have come to the right place . If it can be done ,this is more than likely the place to find out . I own that other brand snowcat but also have a VW motor in one of them ,so I am also interested what the experts have to say about this .Here is a post on a toyota engine in a snowTrac . Maybe it may help .

So where you located ?
welcome aboard ,
Big Al

Melensdad · Feb 28, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Paul, if you do a search here, you will find a post by Larry (Roughwoods) where he swapped a Toyota motor into a Snow Trac. He was able to mate it up to the VW tranny. He showed a photo of it in the thread. While it is not a Subaru opposed 4 engine, it did fit under the hood. Look for a recent thread titled "Larry with another of his toys."

OkeeDon · Feb 28, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Here you go. Kennedy Engineering in California has adaptors for almost any engine you can think of to a VW transmission, including the 1.8 Subaru boxer.

BigAl · Feb 28, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

B_Skurka said:
Paul, if you do a search here, you will find a post by Larry (Roughwoods) where he swapped a Toyota motor into a Snow Trac. He was able to mate it up to the VW tranny. He showed a photo of it in the thread. While it is not a Subaru opposed 4 engine, it did fit under the hood. Look for a recent thread titled "Larry with another of his toys."

DOH!!!
I guess it would have been nice if I had provided the link to Larry's post ! Sorry about that Cooper .... Thanks for saving me ,Bob
Big Al

Snowcat Operations · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

My father has access to a new engine coming out very soon. Magnesium block flat 4 opposed cylinder (Just like a VW) but beefed up and still very light. In the production car it will get 70 MPG and be quicker and faster than a new Porsche 911. It runs off of compressed natural gas. You can also get it in regular gas (not available in the production car) and can be chosen from 125 HP up to 300 HP. I am waiting for some specs now.

Snowcat Operations · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

I am very happy though with the VW motor. Since the Snow Tracs are rated for 14.5 mph (low ratio) and 18.5 mph (high ratio) top speed not much power is really needed. My thoughts on improvements would be more torque and a bit more horse power and a remote oil filter. These should be easy to achieve. 85 HP would be the absolute highest hp I would put in the Snow Master / Trac. Not because of breaking issues or worries but because there is NO need for more in this application.

Melensdad · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Mike, as I live in a land of flat prairies and farm fields with the occasional ridge line to climb near a river, I can tell you that I don't see the need for more power than the VW engine offers, but as Larry pointed out in his Toyota engine swap, it sure would be nice to have a really good heater, and a water cooled engine provides that feature to a much greater degree than an air cooled engine.

Here is a direct link to Larry's motor swap thread: Larry's Toyota Snow Trac

BigAl · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

B_Skurka said:
, but as Larry pointed out in his Toyota engine swap, it sure would be nice to have a really good heater, and a water cooled engine provides that feature to a much greater degree than an air cooled engine.

COME ON GUY"S ! Are you telling me that with all this tech stuff out there ,no one has come up with a 12V electric heater that will work correctly ??? There must be something . I was actually thinking of removing my hot water heater on the KT7 and installing a all electric one so I could find a better placement . Now you have got me 2nd guessing myself .
Big Al :tiphat:

bczoom · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

BigAl said:
COME ON GUY"S ! Are you telling me that with all this tech stuff out there ,no one has come up with a 12V electric heater that will work correctly ???

Or 110V through an inverter. You would then have 110v plugs for other things. A 2nd battery with isolator should also be considered. I would use a deep-cycle marine battery for a heater application.

Melensdad · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Well we are off topic here, but just to straighten out Al I will indulge the diversion. Yes there are 12-volt heaters that will work and that is not a big issue. The issue of the heater is that VW air cooled flat 4 engines really had crappy heat output and that is a well known fact. As an option, Snow Trac did sell and install an auxilary gas heater, but again, it was an option. Electric heat is certainly easy to install and flexible in how it can be installed. But the Snow Tracs are also uninsulated as they were delivered from the factory, so plenty of heat is a good thing in any way it can be achieved. Also, several members have installed sound/heat insulation and even carpeting up their interior walls to help retain heat.

Now I don't know why Paul Cooper wants to do a Subaru engine swap, perhaps he has one available? Perhaps he has the desire for a different torque band? Perhaps it is for improved heat? Perhaps it is all or none of the above.

But I would hope that we could stay on this the topic of doing an ENGINE SWAP and provide Paul with some additional information.

BigAl · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

bczoom said:
Or 110V through an inverter. You would then have 110v plugs for other things. A 2nd battery with isolator should also be considered. I would use a deep-cycle marine battery for a heater application.

I have two solar electric systems on my cabin and also my home in Panama . That would be a lot of battery's to run a heater on 110V inverter . You have a 20% conversion loss right from the start. With a 110 V heater pulling... say 600 watts you could not run it long without draining the battery's .

Snowcat Operations · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

An electric heater is not a real good choice. I would stick with water heater system. As far as the Subaru engine swap. It is all the rage in the dune buggy industry. Its actually a very good engine. For simplicity and ultimate reliability I would stay with the VW AIR cooled engine. You dont have all those extra parts involved in a water cooled engine to worry about. Thats why air cooled engine ARE more reliable.

villi · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

This Snow Trac have Subaru engine and gearbox high and low top speed 60 kmh

Snowcat Operations · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Thats some pretty impressive numbers! Sure would stir up them Snow mobilers!

Snowcat Operations · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Villi what is the gerabox? Standard Activ gearbox I would imagine with the variators. Right now I can do most low hills in 3rd sometime I need 2nd. 1st on anything steep. 4th on mostly level or down hills. I feel the best thing would be a 5 gear OD. But I dont think a VW transmission could be adapted with a 5th gear. BUT I dont know. Anyone know of a 5 speed adaptor to a 4 speed trans?

BigAl · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

B_Skurka said:
Well we are off topic here, but just to straighten out Al I will indulge the diversion.
But I would hope that we could stay on this the topic of doing an ENGINE SWAP and provide Paul with some additional information.

You are right Bob . Sorry Paul , I did not mean to side swipe this motor swap thread .

I still think if a motor swap can be done ,this is the place to find out .
Allen :tiphat:

villi · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

The gearbox is from Subaru with 4 speed and high and low total 8 gears.The variators is mixed on the Subaru gearbox .

Snowcat Operations said:
Villi what is the gerabox? Standard Activ gearbox I would imagine with the variators. Right now I can do most low hills in 3rd sometime I need 2nd. 1st on anything steep. 4th on mostly level or down hills. I feel the best thing would be a 5 gear OD. But I dont think a VW transmission could be adapted with a 5th gear. BUT I dont know. Anyone know of a 5 speed adaptor to a 4 speed trans?

Melensdad · Mar 1, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

villi said:
The gearbox is from Subaru with 4 speed and high and low total 8 gears.

What kind of automotive gearbox has a dual range high and low? Are you saying it has 4 speeds forward in high range, plus 4 speeds forward in low? If so, that would sure be a nice transmission to have on varied ground.

Can we see a couple photos of the inside, particularly the gear shift, shift pattern, and the range selector? :weneedpic

roughwoods · Mar 2, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

I like the looks of the subaru swap, but would like to know more about the gear box set-up.I used the toyota in my rig because that is what i had laying around at the time i got the wild hair up my [trac rig]I got the trans adapter from Kennedy Engineering,I had to put front motor mounts in and raise the hood up about five inches,but I am real happy with the end results.I think that the subaru would be a easer swap .it is a lower profile and looks like it fits real good .If you can let us know more about the subaru trans- variator mix .that would be real nice!I like your swap beter than mine.

Melensdad · Mar 2, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

Larry,
How about some photos of your Toyota/Snow Trac with the hood closed so we can see how you raised the hood? Also how did you set up the cabin heat?

I do like the more compact Subaru installation, and I am very curious about the speed obtained with the Subaru gearbox. I'd love to see/hear a lot more detail about that install. I think 60kph is roughly 35+mph. That seems pretty darn fast in a machine that has rubber belts for tracks, but also would probably be a blast to drive on an open field of fresh snow.

villi · Mar 2, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

This Snow Trac is number 748 made in 1966. Subaru engine and Subaru gearbox it is for sale $ 3.801 in Iceland !!!

villi said:
This Snow Trac have Subaru engine and gearbox high and low top speed 60 kmh

roughwoods · Mar 2, 2006

Re: Moter swap ?

This is the box heater i used,mounted it on the pass-side floor boards,I hope you can tell by the pic. how I raised the hood.I sure hope Villi tells us more on the Subaru trans.

cooper · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Moter swap ?

Well here goes the Subaru motor swap. I just ordered the adaptor from Kenedys (sp?) (Its a month out) It should be a pretty easy swap as you still use the VW starter, clutch and pressure plate. The main reason for this swap is I want a good heater in the cab, more HP is just a bonous as we have very hilly terain here in this part of Alaska. (south central Kenai peninsula) The other reason is Subarus are a dime a dozen here. (VW's never caught on and parts are hard to find around here (lack of heater and to dam cold ) I will try and post lots of pictures. Any one interested in a original gas heater for one? I have a couple with spair parts.

Paul

ser# 07-2583

Melensdad · Mar 30, 2007

Re: Moter swap ?

cooper said:
Well here goes the Subaru motor swap. I just ordered the adaptor from Kenedys (sp?) (Its a month out) It should be a pretty easy swap as you still use the VW starter, clutch and pressure plate. The main reason for this swap is I want a good heater in the cab, more HP is just a bonous as we have very hilly terain here in this part of Alaska. (south central Kenai peninsula) The other reason is Subarus are a dime a dozen here. (VW's never caught on and parts are hard to find around here (lack of heater and to dam cold ) I will try and post lots of pictures. Any one interested in a original gas heater for one? I have a couple with spair parts.

Paul

ser# 07-2583

Hey Paul, when you get ready to install the motor, please start up a new thread on the topic. :weneedpic

This is one of the most common questions I get asked and I have no clue how to do it. I know that Kennedy has adapter plates to mate the VW tranny up to many different engines, so in theory this should not be a hard project, but I think the devil is in the details and your photos will be able to show the details that many members are curious about. It would be a great service to a lot of Snow Trac owners here, and probably to a lot of other brand owners too.

I think it would also be interesting to hear how it performs with greater horsepower. Because of gearing, the speed won't change, but obviously the engine with more horsepower will have a much easier task climbing hills and managing deep snow. Make sure you give us a "review" of the performance after the snow falls next winter.

mtmogs · Mar 30, 2007

Good luck Paul. Please keep us posted on your progress with lots of pics and tips!

-Paul

Snowcat Operations · Apr 7, 2007

Bob. With the Subaru engine swap the gearing isnt the limiting factor. The Red Line is on the VW compared to the Subaru. You get almost another 2000 rpm before you hit Red Line. This alone is a huge advantage! Plus with more than twice the HP this makes it much more driveable. To me this is a much better factor than the better heater. BUT then again I dont live in Alaska. Most the time I run my cat with the front of the sky light open to get some cool airflow. Now on crappy days I would love a better heater no doubt. I need to figure out away to run a window defroster for my windshield. This will be a great Swap. I need to get my adaptor plate ordered up as well. Paint should arrive anyday.

Bulldog1401 · Apr 7, 2007

First off, I dont own a Snow trac but am very impressed by the degree of engineering that went into them. Very ahead of their time. I am also impressed with the VW product in general; hard to beat German Engineering on any type of vehicle. It seems from a laymans point of view that parts availablity, reliability, and the ability to modify the current set-up for your intended use should govern you engine swap decision. I must admit that I am a thiokol owner but would have snapped up a snow track if one had been available at time of purchase (wife would much appreciate the car like characteristics of this machine).

Snowcat Operations · Apr 7, 2007

I love the VW engines but when you start to get up there in the HP range the Subarus are in then you start to loose the desired reliability plus the costs just get way up there! And yes women tend to love the "Oh thats just like my car. I can drive that" aspect of them!

Bulldog1401 · Apr 7, 2007

Same as my Imp.That sucker will do 25 MPH if it will do anything. But you have to rev it up in good shape. i dont like to because I can image how hard it is on the engine. Also it is a real hansful to control and steer at that speed. pull the stick too hard and you are sideways and out of control.....

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