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ARC Detect Circuit Breakers.....
- Thread starter Junkman
- Start date
Junkman said:
DAmn Junk,
You're trying to really test me tonight aren't ya?
Arc Fault Breakers are now required for any circuit that supplys anything in a bedroom. Lights, fans, smoke detectors, outlets, whatever. They actually detect an arc in the wiring or the appliance/device. They will sense a line break and also a line to neutral arc or line to ground arc.
I understand from a reliable source that soon arc fault breakers will soon be mandatory for ALL circuits in the house.
Next code cycle will allow an AFCI device, but it will have to be installed within 6' of the panel and the feed to be in conduit of some type.
They are much more reasonably priced now than when they first came out. They were in the hundreds of dollars at one time. Now they're down to $30-60 depending on brand.
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You might want to read this article
about them
about them
rico304
New member
If they change code to make all circuits arcfault, I can only imagine the problems everyone will have. I've heard of a bunch of ceiling fans that trip them, heaters, etc.. (I know they trip if the heater is on when you plug it in, but people have TOLD me that it happens when they turn it on properly) I hope they make some changes to the breaker if they change code.
I would imagine they would have to do an arcfault outlet instead of breaker as well. That would add a bunch of $$$ to a panel after you add 20-30 arcfault. (at an extra 20+ dollars per breaker)
Oh yes, I almost forgot that I've seen many complaints about using power tools and having them continuously trip.
I would imagine they would have to do an arcfault outlet instead of breaker as well. That would add a bunch of $$$ to a panel after you add 20-30 arcfault. (at an extra 20+ dollars per breaker)
Oh yes, I almost forgot that I've seen many complaints about using power tools and having them continuously trip.
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Junkman
Extra Super Moderator
Considering the size of the breakers, they will also need to change the size of the panels themselves. I can just see a 200 amp 42 breaker panel filled with ARC and GFI breakers. They will have to have the materials delivered by armored car because of the costs involved. Speaking of costs, I just scored 5 New Square D QO 20 amp GFI breakers on eBay for $46.97 plus $5.00 shipping. I would have to pay that for just one locally!!!
rico304
New member
Wouldn't that be covered by the first outlet in the circuit, like a GFCI. It adds about 500 to 600 dollars per average panel. That's a whole buncha overtime for me. haha Seems that if used like a GFCI outlet, and just use the breakers for lights, smokes, etc would cut the cost a little.
We can only hope
We can only hope
Disclaimer -I do not want to hijack this thread so please feel free to move or delete this post if you feel it is inappropriate here.
That being said, can anyone point me to a source for a G.F.C.I. tester for 208 volt 3-phase? The ones for 110 volt are cheap at 2-3 dollars each. The only thing I have found for 208 3 phase are circuit analyzers for $3500.00 and up.
I hope there is something simpler/less expensive that can me bought or made.
That being said, can anyone point me to a source for a G.F.C.I. tester for 208 volt 3-phase? The ones for 110 volt are cheap at 2-3 dollars each. The only thing I have found for 208 3 phase are circuit analyzers for $3500.00 and up.
I hope there is something simpler/less expensive that can me bought or made.
OhioTC18 said:DAmn Junk,
You're trying to really test me tonight aren't ya?
Arc Fault Breakers are now required for any circuit that supplys anything in a bedroom. Lights, fans, smoke detectors, outlets, whatever. They actually detect an arc in the wiring or the appliance/device. They will sense a line break and also a line to neutral arc or line to ground arc.
I understand from a reliable source that soon arc fault breakers will soon be mandatory for ALL circuits in the house.
Next code cycle will allow an AFCI device, but it will have to be installed within 6' of the panel and the feed to be in conduit of some type.
They are much more reasonably priced now than when they first came out. They were in the hundreds of dollars at one time. Now they're down to $30-60 depending on brand.
Hate to tell you but that infomation is wrong. NEC states that only outlets are required to be arc faulted in bed rooms of new homes. This is a change from the original code that stated everything in a bedroom will be arc faulted. This is due to the arcs that happen when you open or close a switch or when a ceiling fan motor is turned on or off. Now as to the whole house being arc faulted nonsence every type of heating element, vacume, switch blender mixer, coffee maker so on and so on... will trip the fault bue to the internal spark. So save your self some time from a do over Junkman, and only fault the outlets. If you need the code titles let me know
Badge142
badge142 said:
I'm wrong?.....News to me and the code making panel that wrote it. Kindly read the definition of "outlet" in the NEC, article 100 my friend. "A point on the wiring system at which current is taken to supply utilization equipment". That means lights, fans, receptacles, smoke detectors, etc.
Arguing with an Inspector is like wrestling with a pig in the mud. After a while, you figure out the pig loves it.
Junkman
Extra Super Moderator
Dang........... don't you know that COPS know everything about everything?????? Don't believe me, watch the real COPS on TV and you will see that they know everything about the bad guys.
I have always wondered why psychics can find killers after the fact, but if they are so good, then why can't they see the crime happening before it happens???????
I have always wondered why psychics can find killers after the fact, but if they are so good, then why can't they see the crime happening before it happens???????
rico304
New member
OhioTC18 said:
So now I'm confused. I understand that GFCI is different beast. But you don't have to run GFCI to solo circuit like a fridge or a sump pump for fear it will trip. What is the difference between that and an arcfault to a smoke detector? I know for fact ceiling fans will trip arcfault. No arguing that one. If that is on same circuit as smoke, light, fridge, sump, or other lights, you just lost the entire circuit. Arcfault does trip often. If you had something to do with the writing of NEC, how does it work around that?
Seems like we will have many circuits tripped.
Also I checked out an arcfault today at HD. $55 for a 20A! Wow! LIke I said earlier, that is an additional (give or take) $500 per panel.
Badge is an electrician, I'll run these by him as well.
Just seems like the cart might be put in front of the horse.
rico304 said:
rico,
depends on where the fridge and sump pump is plugged into, whether or not you need a GFCI.
I see ceiling fans everyday on AFCI circuits and there are no onger problems if you use a fan that cost more than $29. Smoke detectors are required to be arc fault protected, believe me. They could trip off sometime, that only means there is a problem in the circuit anyway, which you might want to get fixed right away. Besides they have a battery back-up so the protection is still there.
OhioTC18 said:
Maybe before answers are given out to people, one should take a few seconds to know a little about the person who needs the answer... I believe that Junkman lives in CT. If he does not I am sorry I might be wrong
oster_oo First time for everything I guess..CT like most states, except NH. and a few other rebels have made amendments to the NEC 210.12 Basicallly They changed the word outlet to recepiticals. So the Junkman does not need to include the light and smoke det. I would hate to have my family rely on a 99 cent battery.You made me doubt myself today so my cop instinct took over, I grabbed a coffee, donut and my cell phone and called the state electrical board in CT. Mistake 1... If you pay for minutes on a cell don't ask an inspector any questions. After a while and a long story about a huge bebate/fistfight I got my answer.The same as in Maine.
Just remember Junkman the local inspector has the final word.
I was wrong once, but that was when I thought I was wrong but I was really right.
The only thing better than wrestling a pig is roasting it.
Badge142,
I'll give you the fact that local rule can apply in a lot of places that have their own codes. However, you did write that the NEC states.......
Local code can change whats enforced, but it cannot change the wording in the NEC. So maybe we were both right.......in part
I'll give you the fact that local rule can apply in a lot of places that have their own codes. However, you did write that the NEC states.......
Local code can change whats enforced, but it cannot change the wording in the NEC. So maybe we were both right.......in part
OhioTC18 said:Badge142,
I'll give you the fact that local rule can apply in a lot of places that have their own codes. However, you did write that the NEC states.......
Local code can change whats enforced, but it cannot change the wording in the NEC. So maybe we were both right.......in part
10-4 good buddy Great conversation!
Junkman said:I like cops and inspectors.......... I don't like roasted pigs.... Now, can someone please tell me in simple words what they both said??????
Junk,
What I'm assuming he said was only the receptacles need to be protected by an AFCI breaker because of local amendments to the NEC. In other parts of the country that accept the NEC, everything in the bedrooms needs to be on one.
