Houses keep getting BIGGER!?!

My house is a nice size house at +/-4000 square feet, it used to be considered a large house, but now it seems to be dwarfed by many new houses. When I built my house, a REALLY BIG house was about 6500 sq.ft.

I now have employees who have houses larger than mine. Many of our friends who have moved into newly constructed homes over the past few years have homes that range from 4500 square feet on up. And while they are far from 'normal' I am seeing many many more 10,000 to 12,000 square foot homes being built over the past 5 or so years.

My first house was 1300 sq/ft. It seemed big enough. Yesterday my wife and daughter were talking about putting a 1200 sq ft addition onto our house. . . a house that only 3 people live in!?! WTF?

The "average new home construction" was about 2250 square feet 5 to 10 years ago. 15 years ago the average new construction was about 1800 square feet. 40 years ago 1500 square feet was average. Families are smaller, houses are bigger.

I have to wonder if the combination of bigger houses, and all the other complications of life (cell phone bills, internet bills, 3 or more car payments, etc) is why we see more and more bankruptcies as people get in over their heads financially?

Lots of people with really big houses, and beautiful landscaping.......

Plus a mortgage they can barely pay, a Futon in the livingroom and Campbells Tomato Soup in the cabinet.

Keeping up with the Jones's is tough work these days.

DaveNay said:

Lots of people with really big houses, and beautiful landscaping.......

Plus a mortgage they can barely pay, a Futon in the livingroom and Campbells Tomato Soup in the cabinet.

Keeping up with the Jones's is tough work these days.

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I have a friend in big home who has some unfinished floors, incomplete woodwork, etc. What he has is TOP quality, but the house has been unfinished for 11+ years (and counting).

The other thing I see on some of these big houses is cheap ass construction, bricks that are only 1/2" thick forming a thin veneer, and then only on the front of the house. Inexpensive windows, despite the need in my area for high energy efficiency windows. Even many large houses have 2x4 exterior walls instead of 2x6 with thicker insulation. Good looks, lots of rooms, impressive facades, but not a lot of substance.

I guess I'd really rather have fewer square feet of quality . . . and mortgage payment that is not a large fraction of the national debt.

What the heck is wrong with people!?!

A friend of mine who is a banker gave me this answer to the same question. Some people are doing interest only mortgages and are depending on rising home values to give them their equity. Maybe I'm old fashioned but this sounds awfully risky to me, especially with the market here in the NE
$ 250,000 for a half acre building lot and we're not talking waterfront or view.

B_Skurka said:

I have to wonder if the combination of bigger houses, and all the other complications of life (cell phone bills, internet bills, 3 or more car payments, etc) is why we see more and more bankruptcies as people get in over their heads financially?

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Yes. People think they need more and more space, a more prestigious car, and all the other trappings and they are willing to take on more and more debt to get it.

To me, net worth is a more accurate measure of success. It's great to have nice stuff and take relaxing vacations, but how relaxing can your vacation be if you finance it? How relaxing can it be to watch a financed plasma TV with your financed surround sound? And head off to work in your financed BMW?

As far as consumer items go, if I can't afford to pay cash, I can't afford it right now. In a few years, my house and land will be paid off free and clear; only encumbered anually by the tax man. I'm 42. To me success is owning everything, owing no one, and basicalliy being financially un-vulnerable.

I don't see how people handle the stress of all that debt hanging over their heads.

Cityboy said:

To me, net worth is a more accurate measure of success. It's great to have nice stuff and take relaxing vacations, but how relaxing can your vacation be if you finance it? How relaxing can it be to watch a financed plasma TV with your financed surround sound? And head off to work in your financed BMW?

As far as consumer items go, if I can't afford to pay cash, I can't afford it right now. In a few years, my house and land will be paid off free and clear; only encumbered anually by the tax man. I'm 42. To me success is owning everything, owing no one, and basicalliy being financially un-vulnerable.

I don't see how people handle the stress of all that debt hanging over their heads.

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Clearly, and skillfully said Cityboy. Freedom from financial debt is a genuine freedom that many people will never know. I totally agree with you as many people with financial obligations beyond their ability to pay will never know the freedom of not having to borrow to get through life. By working hard in business, investing wisely, and not accumulating debt beyond my means, I was able to semi retire at 51 and today I can do what I like to do. I now buy and sell residential properties and commercial properties for fun and profit.

We have had the large homes (4000+sq ft) with all the amenities and now are quite happy living with less “stuff” and are really enjoying life. Our mountain home is smaller and very easy to maintain. At one time we were maintaining three homes and it was just too time consuming and left little time to enjoy other things in life. We now have the freedom to do as we wish and are not obligated to outside interests.

I'm already thinking of the "issue" of the size of my house after all the kids are gone. I honestly never plan on moving, so at some point in the, unfortunately, not so far future, I'll have plenty of extra space. For now, I'm still looking over those plans to add on to my barn...

B_Skurka said:

I have a friend in big home who has some unfinished floors, incomplete woodwork, etc. What he has is TOP quality, but the house has been unfinished for 11+ years (and counting).

The other thing I see on some of these big houses is cheap ass construction, bricks that are only 1/2" thick forming a thin veneer, and then only on the front of the house. Inexpensive windows, despite the need in my area for high energy efficiency windows. Even many large houses have 2x4 exterior walls instead of 2x6 with thicker insulation. Good looks, lots of rooms, impressive facades, but not a lot of substance.

I guess I'd really rather have fewer square feet of quality . . . and mortgage payment that is not a large fraction of the national debt.

What the heck is wrong with people!?!

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I have watched tons of these "McMansions" go up around here (NE Mass.) over the last decade and a half. In my opinion most of them are pretty shoddy quality. Vinyl siding, thin walls, brick veneers- not real brick, cheaper windows, etc. In the end this market is driven by the consumers who demand larger and larger houses. In my personal opinion this is all a status thing, driven by what my wife calls the 'square footage people'. To them status means a big house (doesnt matter how crappy the actual house is) , a luxury car, and good looking wife with big boobs. I sort of think of it as "drive by status", where you show up at a party in your fancy car, your walk around with your cute wife on your arm, and you can instantly convey how successful you are by talking about what town you live in and how many square feet your house has. I see these big houses having problems all the time. A couple of years ago the guy two lots over from me knocked down the little farmhouse him and his family were living in and put up a mcmansion type house. I personally watched them slap on the vinyl siding with absolutely no water barrier behind it. The framing all looked like a bit of hack job to me, and I can tell the windows are cheaper brand vinyl framed window. I am waiting to see how long it takes before he starts having to do major maintainence work to it.

A few years back my wife and I bought a 1950's single floor ranch. After a couple of years we added second floor and redid the entire exterior. We decided to go with painted cedar shingles on the outside and it was interesting because almost every single person we talked to inevitably asked "why don't you go with vinyl"? . I took personally took this as an indicator of how lazy a lot of people have become. I kept hearing the same thing - " you will have to paint the house every 3-4 years" and crap like that. Well the cedar shingles have been on the house for about 4 years now and look as good as new. This is because they were painted properly , but craftmanship is a concept that people just dont get any more. They don't even know for instance that there is a difference between a good paint job and a bad paint job and that difference might be the paint lasts 3 years vs. the paint lasts 15. The way I look at it is if you don't have the time to paint your house every 15 years or so you probably should be living in a condo.

The whole big vinyl covered house thing is a bit of sore subject with me - I see it as a good indicator of an attitude among many people where they want all the fancy trimmings but they don't want to actually have to do the work to get it so they settle for a reasonable facsimile and go into debt to do it.

Dargo said:

I honestly never plan on moving, so at some point in the, unfortunately, not so far future, I'll have plenty of extra space.

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Oh-Oh!!!

Will you adopt me?

Well I dunno, I guess I don't understand what goes through the minds of some of these people. Another indicator of cheap ass construction that is visible from the street are the exterior light fixtures used on some of these big homes . . . little jelly jar light fixtures! Those are fine on a small home, but stick out like a sore thumb on a large house.

Heck, I'd trade away a lot of square footage for quality construction any day. And while we are considering adding on to our house, I could easily and happily live in a smaller one. I understand Dargo having a large house, he has lots of kids, but I've got a grand total of 3 people and 1.125 dogs living here.

It just seems sort of crazy to me to see so many people who build these monster sized homes. Several people brought up financial security and to me that is a BIG deal.

When I built my house it was over 2/3rds paid for before we moved in. We paid cash for the land. Had the floorplans for a few years and we bought flooring, appliances and all sorts of plumbing and lighting fixtures and stored them until we needed them. Doing it that way allowed us to save for the new house in 2 ways, one was by buying things as we had the money, the other was by not financing them.

Maybe I'm too simplistic, but at age 45, my house is fully paid for. We pay our savings accounts before we pay our bills (direct deposit to those accounts) so my child's college fund was started less than 30 days after she was born and I've never missed a contribution in 11+ years, but I have increased them over time. I don't worry about Social Security going broke as we've been funding our retirement accounts to the maximum allowed by the programs for as long as we've both been employed. I could retire today but enjoy my job. No, I've never leased a BMW or financed a vacation. I guess I'm old fashioned. I borrow only what I have to borrow and lived this long waiting to buy things that I can afford to pay cash for so I don't spend twice as much on the goods after finance charges are factored in.

Vinyl siding, brick veneer and a status looking house built like crap seem to be symptoms of a spoiled society that forgot how to live within its means.

It's all a facade. People have too much money (or financing) available to them these days. There will be a correction at some time. If I was smart enough to know when then I'd be really rich.

Lots of these monster houses are so poorly maintained and constructed that the people that buy them have to sell before the house hits 10 years and everything starts to fall apart.

B_Skurka said:

I understand Dargo having a large house, he has lots of kids....

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Thanks Bob. Yes, it is true that I honestly do have 5 kids. However, on any given day you would think I have 20 with all the other kids here. But that is the way I want it. Never mind that at times they drive me nuts, it's a long story for another time as to why I wanted to "have it all" where I live. In short, when I grew up, we had nothing. From about the age of 4 up I was never home. I always wanted to go to the "cool" kid's house with all of the rest of my friends. My goal in life was not only to have my own fleet of kids, but to have that "cool" place where all my kids wanted to bring their friends.

Sure, it's cost me plenty and I get pissed at times. But the bottom line is that I wouldn't do things any differently. All of my construction is between high end consumer and commercial stuff (for obvious reasons). I won't say exactly how big it is, but it really is big and getting bigger. Maybe that is why property taxes are one of my biggest pet peeves!

Lately my house and guest/pool house have been getting booked up with friends and relatives parties, reunions, anniversaries and weddings. I don't charge a dime and I wouldn't have it any other way. Yeah, I bitch at times about different things, but that's just me. I'm actually honored that our close friends and relatives want to have their functions at our house and even to be married at a couple of different scenic places at our property. Do I feel that I get 'used' at times? Of course, but I really don't think that is very often. Most all guests are at least somewhat respectful of our property and we've never had an issue with theft. I understand that one time a 'friend of a friend' was going to lift something from us when he was here but another 'friend of a friend' intervened and simply told that person not to do that here because he didn't want to ever lose the open invite to be here nearly any time.

Oh well, yes, the house is big and getting bigger. I keep working my butt off and taking years off of my life with the associated stress, but it's my choice. I'm like a 'little Bob' in that I don't believe in buying anything that I can't pay for on the spot. When I first built my house I had a mortgage for a few years and that worried me silly. I guess that is why I am firmly in the camp of being astonished at the people who build these mansions and have a debt to income ratio that would choke a horse. I suppose you could say that I've been on the Dave Ramsey plan before Dave Ramsey ever came along. Thanks, by the way, to whoever mentioned his radio show on this site a few months ago. I like what he has to say. He has a lot of sound advice. Those of you who have not heard his show ought to check it out. It's on both satellite stations as well as being broadcasted on many radio stations and having a web-cast.

PBinWA said:

Lots of these monster houses are so poorly maintained and constructed that the people that buy them have to sell before the house hits 10 years and everything starts to fall apart.

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This is a very important point. My house is nearly 100 years old, and is still in "good" condition. I have friends though that have newly constructed houses they have lived in for only 5-10 years, and they are deteriorating rapidly. No way do I believe most of the houses being built these days will be livable in 60 years time.

jdwilson44 said:

. . . they settle for a reasonable facsimile and go into debt to do it.

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PBinWA said:

Lots of these monster houses are so poorly maintained and constructed that the people that buy them have to sell before the house hits 10 years and everything starts to fall apart.

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DaveNay said:

No way do I believe most of the houses being built these days will be livable in 60 years time.

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Sort of makes you wonder what the real estate market will do to the value of the McMansions. What will that 'correction' do to these people who have these homes and care barely afford to take care of them? Seems to me the day of reckoning is only a few very large mortgages payments away, and if they are lucky they will get out and downsize before they get slapped too hard. Especially when you factor in the debt load these people have.

Do you see the market changing in a few years where people return to smaller, simplier, and better built homes?



-------- off topic ---------

Financed conspicuous consumption, another worrisome trend in my opinion that destabilizes to some degree the entire economic system. I also developed a Dave Ramsey mindset long before I heard the name. 46 years young now; and approaching the 10 year point since I have paid a dime in interest. There is a benefit to living “below your means” that some folks will never enjoy.

This is the guest house......... The second picture is of the main house we live in.....

Junkman said:

This is the guest house......... The second picture is of the main house we live in.....

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You know that house you live in looks like it might have been a neat little house at one point. It has a hell of a view - I would frankly rather have the little house ( in a better state of repair ) than the Mcmansion house of the first picture.

FWIW - I don't know where some of you guys live or what you do for work that allows you to have your property paid off in your 40's - out here in Northeast MA I though I was doing pretty good to have 12 years left on my mortgage at 42, and have my car and tractor paid off and a little bit of money in the bank. Property prices are pretty steep out here - a decent 1/2 acre building lot in my town is probably in the $200,000 to $250,000 range now. I honestly don't know how people afford stuff out here now with the prices so high.

DaveNay said:

This is a very important point. My house is nearly 100 years old, and is still in "good" condition. I have friends though that have newly constructed houses they have lived in for only 5-10 years, and they are deteriorating rapidly. No way do I believe most of the houses being built these days will be livable in 60 years time.

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I have seen the same thing - my ranch house was built in the mid 50's. At the time we bought it it still had the original cedar shingle siding (in pretty good shape), the original window frames with replacement windows, it had three layers of shingles on the roof, and had not really been maintained all that well for probably 10 - 20 years. I did a total rehab and added a second floor, redid the entire exterior, and replaced all the windows. But the core house itself was in pretty good shape - and given the amount of neglect the house had I expected to find more things wrong. I have seen new $900,000 houses out here that have the trim rotting off the house after just 5 years, cracked foundations, poor quality materials, etc. This is just shoddy construction and using poor materials. The real problem is that home buyers don't know better - the builders just add a few required touches here and there and people fork over the money. I have learned a pretty good amount about home construction over the last 10 years or so and a lot of the houses I have seen built lately are just crap.

jdwilson44 said:

The real problem is that home buyers don't know better - the builders just add a few required touches here and there and people fork over the money. I have learned a pretty good amount about home construction over the last 10 years or so and a lot of the houses I have seen built lately are just crap.

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I'm pretty darn good friends with two of the best builders in my area. The guy who built my main house is the same guy who built Steve Chancellor's mega-mansion; largest and most expensive house in Indiana as well as Evander Holyfield's house just outside of Atlanta. The other guy just does custom houses by appointment. One guy is huge with an office staff of nearly 30, and the other guy has a staff of about 3. However, both have refused to go into the "icing" business. That is a slang word by builders where they build a $hit house and dress it all up with icing. You know, the little shudders with red hearts cut into them, the frills around the Corinthian columns outside and other things like that. They have done very well for themselves and always have a waiting list.

I have two relatives who are in the icing business. They actually are worth a fortune, but they darn near need bodyguards 24/7 and are in court several times a month. One of them got nailed when a building inspector "got religion" and turned him in for giving him a quarter million cash donation for Christmas one year. That same relative, with a straight face, told me that if I'm not in tax trouble with the government that I'm losing money. He explained to me that they (the government) will always settle for pennies on the dollar when you have a good attorney. He said he's saved hundreds of thousands of dollars that way.

I guess it all boils down to there being a right way to do things and a wrong way to do things. Since I plan on always living where I do, I always considered "code" as being a bare minimum building standard. I didn't want anything that just met code; it damn well better be far better than "code"! I looked at buying my wife's grandparent's house a month or so ago from her family's estate. I'm telling you, some older homes were built so poorly that it's absolutely amazing that they are still standing! I'm talking about floor joists on 24" centers made of 2X4's. All of the rafters are 2X4's on 16" centers. Needless to say, all floors are sagging big time and the roof line looks like that of an old worn out horse. The basement walls are blocked with 4" thick block. When I built my house, code was 8", and I used 12". There are some good old homes, but there are an awful lot of them that will fall down in the next few years. And, you can have one quality home right next to a trash one. There doesn't seem to be any common thread other than what the person paying for the construction wanted.

Our first house was 828 square feet, not counting the finished basement. We would probably still be living there if it wasn't for the 66 x 97 city lot! We built our present home on 3.67 "park-like" acres, but moved up to a 1840 square foot house. There's only two of us (and a spoiled dog), and I wonder if that's too large. Do we really need a family room AND a living room... or two extra bedrooms that always have the doors closed? After seeing the 10,000 square foot house across the road, and knowing how much time I spend doing work around this house, I wonder how much time would be needed for maintenance and cleaning over there???

We've built a fair amount of equity in this house over the three years we've lived here, and we're leaning towards taking our money and moving somewhere else... some place where comparable real estate is much less expensive. One potential plan is to find a home (not too large) that fits our needs on a couple acres, and pay cash for this one. Being able to continue to work, but live without the stress of a mortgage sounds great... We've got a couple areas identified as places to move to, and we have put in for jobs and looked at possible houses.

We felt it's time to try something new... We'll see what's in store for us over the next few months!

We lived in a house for 27 years that is 1928 ft. After the kids moved on, that started feeling sorta "wasted space". We just recently moved to a new place with a home that's only 1488 ft. Extremely cheap to heat and cool, less to clean, less to take care of. For the 2 of us and 2 dogs, it's plenty big enough.

Monster homes galore around here. When I see them, I can't help but think about utility bills.

Yes, I'm cheaper than Jack Benny.

I agree with FarmwithJunk. I have 3 homes . All paid for . Care to guess which one is my favorite ???? The smallest one . 1450 square feet . Easy to take care of and cheap to maintain .
Too many people buy stuff to impress other people and end up killing themselves with debt . I could care less what my nieghbor owns or is trying to impress me with .

Q:

B_Skurka said:

What the heck is wrong with people!?!

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A:

B_Skurka said:

...impressive facades, but not a lot of substance...

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....is that oversimplification?


"Supersize me"

Jakki, sure it is over simplification, but on forums like this it is fairly difficult to fully explore things in short posts, and long posts are simply past over by many people so the point is totally missed.

But the reality is that many of these homes do look good from the street, but upon detailed inspection really do lack quality.

As for asking what the heck is wrong with people, perhaps it is a better question asked of society? What the heck are we doing that causes so many people to strive to impress other people at the expense of their own financial security, at the expense of their future financial stability? Why are so many people preoccupied with style over substance, that they over extend their finances to impress other people.

...... over simplification on MY part I meant......

....just noticed that u'd actually answered ur own question.....as far as my opinion on the subject goes.....

I actually do believe that the "Supersize Me" phenomenon is directly related to "substance" levels withtin the individual.....that would be inversely proportional, of course

jdwilson44 said:

You know that house you live in looks like it might have been a neat little house at one point. It has a hell of a view - I would frankly rather have the little house ( in a better state of repair ) than the Mcmansion house of the first picture.

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That is a picture that came with Windows XP, and I have always found it to be a favorite. If I actually owned it, I would fix the old barn and use it, although it does look great the way it is. Problem is that it will fall down in a few years if it weren't repaired.

jdwilson44 said:

FWIW - I don't know where some of you guys live or what you do for work that allows you to have your property paid off in your 40's - out here in Northeast MA I though I was doing pretty good to have 12 years left on my mortgage at 42, and have my car and tractor paid off and a little bit of money in the bank. Property prices are pretty steep out here - a decent 1/2 acre building lot in my town is probably in the $200,000 to $250,000 range now. I honestly don't know how people afford stuff out here now with the prices so high.

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We did it by living in a 2 room cottage for a few years, saving, while we built a new home in 1982. Then I sold the home that I had been renting out and used that money to finish the interior of the new home. Double mortgage payments made the principle go down quickly and we lived conservatively. Today, the home is paid for, but the taxes are going crazy. Every 6 weeks or so, there is another referendum vote to increase the taxes in town, and every time it keeps getting voted down. The people that want more money for the schools don't understand NO, and they keep bringing up new proposals to be voted on. It cost the town $3500 each time a vote is called for. So far, for 2006, it is $10500 wasted, and they are talking about trying again this summer. The school department gets 76% of the towns budget and they have a $400,000 budget shortfall. I know that there are a lot of people that are selling because the taxes are going up. These are the people without children in the schools, and they are selling to people that have school aged children, so the school system is going to be further stressed. If they were to give the people without children a break, then they would stay and continue to pay taxes. It has become an never ending cycle....

Forgot to mention..... the brick house isn't our home either.... it is a picture that I found a few years ago, when someone asked for a picture of our home. I would never live in a home that large... I wouldn't even want to pay to heat it.... Junk.

B_Skurka said:

Why are so many people preoccupied with style over substance, that they over extend their finances to impress other people.

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i'd love to make this a new thread.....

RoadKing said:

A friend of mine who is a banker gave me this answer to the same question. Some people are doing interest only mortgages and are depending on rising home values to give them their equity. Maybe I'm old fashioned but this sounds awfully risky to me, especially with the market here in the NE
$ 250,000 for a half acre building lot and we're not talking waterfront or view.

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These mortgages are a sham! Folks, if you depend on rising values, you might just get stuck with something you can not get rid of. 20 years from now when you STILL OWE all you paid for the house, get ready to pay for it all the way into retirement.

My house is 1000 sq ft. Not fancy, not plain. BUT it will be mine, paid for in full in 7 years.

Cityboy said:

Yes. People think they need more and more space, a more prestigious car, and all the other trappings and they are willing to take on more and more debt to get it.

To me, net worth is a more accurate measure of success. It's great to have nice stuff and take relaxing vacations, but how relaxing can your vacation be if you finance it? How relaxing can it be to watch a financed plasma TV with your financed surround sound? And head off to work in your financed BMW?

Silly stuff that will go away and you still have a debt on it.

As far as consumer items go, if I can't afford to pay cash, I can't afford it right now. In a few years, my house and land will be paid off free and clear; only encumbered anually by the tax man. I'm 42. To me success is owning everything, owing no one, and basicalliy being financially un-vulnerable.

Amen and amen. Paid in full is nice to see

I don't see how people handle the stress of all that debt hanging over their heads.

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Me either, I hate owing when I make much more than I owe. Save 10% each payday in stock plan and want to do more.

I didn't see the reason for no interest loans either, until talking with a fresh college grad that major'd in finance. Out of school he could not afford much of a house unless he went with the no interest option. He planned to be in the house for two years. The two years have already come and gone and he's now sold the house and made a tidy sum. Enough to use for the deposit of the next house he & his wife are having built. From the way he talked I would guess it is an oversized house, but I can't be sure since I've never seen it.
No doubt he was living beyond his means, he even said that, but he was in a sense betting on the housing boom to continue two years, and it did. He took the gamble and made out. While I'm not sure I would have done the same had I been in his shoes I appreciate the concept and how he worked his plan.