• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

New Ratrac-S owner

Snowcat Operations

Active member
SUPER Site Supporter
That OC4 would NOT stand a chance and would most likely grenade the second you tried to back out of your garage! No the 200 is a great little motor. Stock is best for it and the OC4. Now BOGGIE has a whole slew of rear diffs that could take a 500 hp Hemi! BUT I would just keep the 200 inline 6 an maybe rebuild her.
 

Sisu

New member
I have absolutely no previous experience regarding Ford industrial engines, but I've heard they are tough ones (aren't the same ones used in tractors?). Propably there's not enough space for a V8 anyway, as the engine cover seems to be quite narrow. So, if you guys think Ford has enough power and reliability - then my project is a bit faster.

Sorry for bombarding with more questions, but what is the best source for Ford rebuild kits? As I'm here the other side of the Atlantic, its better I order the parts as soon as possible because it takes 4-8 weeks to get them.

Btw, Bobcat - I found some evidence that Kristi has been manufacturing cars in Europe :bling:

2511163910102303344S600x600Q85.jpg
 
Last edited:

Snowcat Operations

Active member
SUPER Site Supporter
We can always ship you a rebuild kit. Ive sent stuff to my cousin in Furth, DE. for his Military Hummer of all things! As far as being tuff yes they are! There are alot of companies here in the US that build hot rod parts for them. BUT I would just rebuild it to stock specs with a header and exhaust port splitter. I will tell you more about that later. So we can help you get the rebuild kit. I can ship it. Just let me know if you need the help.
 

Sisu

New member
Ok, I send you a $5000,- cheque which should cover the expensies, and then you can wire the extra money for me through Western Union... Just joking! :halo: Seriously, how much you think a rebuild kit would cost, and yes making the engine breath better (+more noise :w00t:) sounds good! But first I have to open the engine to see what needs to be done (bearings, what oversize pistons etc.). Anyway, you shouldn't see any trouble for me - I can order directly (or are you a distributor?), no problem - but BIG THANKS for the offer! :thumb:

Did Thiokol build their cats with inch or millimetric system?

Btw, I was studying the paperwork that came with the cat, and the actual brand & type is "RATRAC SPRITE". Would be nice to learn more about the connection to Thiokol, and how many vehicles Ratrac build with licence.

...I can't wait to get the Ratrac in my garage! :w00t2:
 

Bobcat

Je Suis Charlie Hebdo
GOLD Site Supporter
<snip>
Did Thiokol build their cats with inch or millimetric system?

Btw, I was studying the paperwork that came with the cat, and the actual brand & type is "RATRAC SPRITE". Would be nice to learn more about the connection to Thiokol, and how many vehicles Ratrac build with licence.

...I can't wait to get the Ratrac in my garage! :w00t2:

I'm sure everything in a Thiokol is inch, but I don't know what Ratrac may have done.

So far, the only difference I've seen between your Ratrac and a Thiokol Spryte is the upper cab. I think you're safe calling it a Thiokol Spryte and assuming anything that works for the Spryte will work for you. I'll bet someone here like Lyndon can find you the details on the Thiokol/Ratrac history. If not, Peterson Equipment in Logan, Utah may know. They've inherited 'everything Thiokol'.

Some Ford inline 6 info and parts resources...
http://www.classicinlines.com/SmallSixSpecs.asp


There is some European Kristi history, but it was tarnished with some sort of patent dispute. The cat that Poma created from the Kristi design may be the most beautiful, sexy snowcat ever built. Think Jaguar on tracks! :w00t2: I know of only one picture of it and the owner will not allow it to be posted here.
 

kgracey

New member
Lieber Sisu, 1986 war ich ein Austauschstudent in Freiburg in Breisgau. Ich habe das durch Ihre Region mehrmals seit damals, normalerweise auf Geschäftsreisen gewesen wird.

Welcome to the forums!
 

mtncrawler

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Might look into it before ordering the engine rebuild kit to order the right one but I think your machine came with a 170 cubic inch industrial engine.
 

Sisu

New member
Leif, maybe you can hook up with the guy from this post... He's in your neck of the woods...
Thanks Bobcat! I just wrote him an email, hope I don't bother him too much but I told him I'm looking for brochures & more information regarding the connection between Ratrac and Thiokol. I'm not sure if he ever registered here, but his gallery is super and they have their own forum - too bad its in German...

I found one Ratrac video from their website, although its a different model than I have but still cool :biggrin:.

Lieber Sisu, 1986 war ich ein Austauschstudent in Freiburg in Breisgau. Ich habe das durch Ihre Region mehrmals seit damals, normalerweise auf Geschäftsreisen gewesen wird.
Welcome to the forums!
Uh, you have better German than I have :brows: My vocabularity is based on "bar German" :5boobs: The first sentence I learned was "Ein hefe Weizen, bitte schön!". But why everyone has been in Freiburg, I don't get it :shifty: Hope you enjoyed your stay as an exchange-student, if you are coming back here for a holiday etc. let me know...

Might look into it before ordering the engine rebuild kit to order the right one but I think your machine came with a 170 cubic inch industrial engine.
Yes, I still don't have the snowcat at my garage, my friend has a big trailer and there's been problems with arranging a day when we both have time to collect the Ratrac - then we know! But I guess its standard 170cid Ford... For sure I'll post a lot of photos when its here!

Btw, I have contacted a Finnish company which sells thousands of different industrial rubber products. They are now looking a suitable/inexpensive belt material for me so I can build new tracks. I thought best way to start is with new tracks, then have some test rides and see what needs total rebuild and what doesn't... Anyway, I will restore everything but its a good idea to have some feeling how it works...
 

Sisu

New member
Hi Guys,

Today I got information from the "rubber company", and they gave an estimate for new rubber for the tracks.

I'm not exactly sure how much rubber is needed, but I estimate about 80 meters in total (87,5 yards), each track has 4 x 10m stripes (about). There are two options to choose from:

- EP1250/3, layers 2+2, thickness ~11mm (0,43"), cut in the width of the original belt 135mm. Strenght 1250Nm/mm. Price 1512,- Eur (1943,- USD) + V.A.T. 22% if applicable

- EP1000/5, layers 2+2, thickness ~10mm (0,39"), cut in the width of the original belt 135mm. Strenght 1000Nm/mm. Price 1296,- Eur (1666,- USD) + V.A.T. 22% if applicable

Please notice the price in Euros is slightly more motivating for us in Europe, due the status of USD against EUR its looking worse for you guys in US.

So, this belt is industrial conveyor belt. That's the best they can offer, actually I'm very tempted because the price is what I expected and I've heard this type of rubber works for well for tracks. If anyone has anything against - please let me (us) know! I'm not sure which is better, do I really need the heavier duty stuff, or is the normal ok.

Thanks!
 

Sisu

New member
Been quite quiet here regarding the Ratrac, actually I had no time to pick it up from Switzerland until last Wednesday. Was absolutely great day, still a lot of snow everywhere, being surrounded by Alps, working at 1.3 miles up and perfect weather (68 Fahrenheits). Also picked up a hey fever :glare:

On German/Swiss border I was prepared to pay some Customs tax, but they let me through for free when they saw the "worthless piece of junk"...

Unfortunately I have had some probs with the old photos, so everything I published so far is now lost. The pics still exist in my laptop, but they were lost from the internet server, therefore sorry that this topic is missing some previous photos. I try to publish more and better pics soon.

The current plan is 100% restoration in original specification, but with some upgrades. I'm still not sure what color I'm going to use (like it was very important at this point :ermm:), likely either the original orange or green. I have a lot of high-tech (and expensive) green paint that was used by the Army and is great stuff hiding vehicles from Infrared cameras :whistling:, it sticks like crazy and isn't the new type water based color. It works well with every type of surface, even aluminium and galvanized steel.

I'm currently restoring several big trucks and other stuff, so the space is in premium. Therefore I used crane to lift the Ratrac on my FBW truck which is undergoing cabin restoration. This somewhat limits what I can do at this moment, but rather finish one of the trucks first and then continue with the snowcat:
2913790990102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


The FBW truck is also Swiss made, and funny enough has the same color :brows::
2136527450102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2885647100102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


I'm not exactly sure what I'll do with the rearend, everything is fully working but I'm tempted to install hydraulics and snowplow, which will propably be too much for the C4 :doh: :
2736525220102303344S600x600Q85.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sisu

New member
2031369630102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Its completely rust free, but shows the signs of use:
2439738140102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


It might take a while until this thing is drivable again, never drove one in my life:
2504640840102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


The very rare optional vacuum cleaner inside :brows::
2856944860102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Under the oil is Ford engine, somewhere...:
2232735540102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2348554990102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


I started working with the tracks, took the measurements and started taking them apart. Damn, thats a real project and will require a lot of :drink:! Anyway, soon I'm ordering all rubber and maybe fabricate new cleats (the old ones are several times repaired and don't look too good), I'm not exactly sure how I fabricate the cleats, but definately I try to automate it as much as I can:
2461507520102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2983669750102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Surprisingly everyone is asking what the hell I'm going to do with it once its finished, LOL!!
 

Sisu

New member
Some basic dimensions for comparison would be great. I imagine they can´t be too different, anyway I have a welding machine, lots of steel and several crates of excellent wheat beer ;)
 

nutsster

Member
Sisu,
Nice to have you on this forum. I had a discussion with Steve at Peterson's Equipment in Logan, Utah about the Ratrac. (Steve was employed by Thiokol in those days.) He told me that Thiokol built the chassis and installed the engines and drive-train for Ratrac and then shipped them over to Europe for them to complete the snow cat. Ratrac did the tracks, deck, upper cab and interior. He said they sent hundreds of them over there and it was quite successful for Thiokol and Ratrac.
If you need any parts, Peterson's would be a great contact for you. Snow Operations or Mtntopper are both very knowledgable about these machines and would be excellent to ask questions.
Unless you can find a good OC12 differential locally, I think it would be very costly to change. If you take care of the C4 and not abuse it, it will work fine for you. Don't put on a blade or pull any heavy objects with it! If you change the grousers out, don't go to a real aggressive blade, it will make the differential work much harder. If I had a Sprite with a C4, I would probably go to a low impact grouser and be very happy with it.
Good luck on your project!
 

Sisu

New member
Nutsster,

Great info - Many Thanks! This gives light to the history of the Thiokol and Ratrac brand co-operation in the early years. Its unbelievable there are still guys who have first hand information from those past times, please tell my best greetings to Steve with all the respect. Its great there's still someone who lived through those years AND still works with these things!

In my eyes, the value of my snowcat is even higher when its mostly US build. As you might have seen, I have 50s American cars, and always had US cars as daily drivers. Lets say I'm a fan of U.S. of A, the way things were engineered and built - nothing complicated but good solid design from real materials.

Here the snowcats are often called Ratracs. Ratrac had different models, but I guess they are also Thiokol "copies". In my version I can see the upper cabin building style differs from the lower body. In US its common to use rivets and no rivets were used in my upper cabin or doors, only welds. All lamps are either made by Prince of Darkness (Lucas) or Wipak, interesting Ratrac used British brands because they are the worst choice, LOL.

As you can see my headlights look like something from an Alien B-movie, I actually prefer the US "Peterbilt" style, just like what you have on your sig pic or as seen in The Shining. So, I will start asking those parts and look where to restore the sprockets etc. Thanks for the links!
2119670520102303344S600x600Q85.jpg

"Take me to your leader"... Looks damn scary! :blink:

So lets agree I keep the C4, in case it breaks apart I'll look for an upgrade, this will anyway be too expensive at the moment. Therefore I will postpone my decision to build the hydraulics and snowplow. I plan to rebuild the tracks for "all-season" use, which should be easier for the axle.

Many thanks for this valuable information! Don't forget to tell my greetings to Steve! :) :applause:
 

Sisu

New member
Maybe its a good idea to show the "great master plan" :gay:I can post some additional photos if someone is interested, and explain a bit more - actually I can bore you to death if you get me started...

Like probably most of the members in this forum I'm interested of vehicles, technology, tools etc. Therefore I have a vision of my ideal setup where I can either use one vehicle for something itself, or use it in combination with something else. I don't like buying anything ready made, so usually I buy a restoration project and restore everything back to new. Even if I would have more money, I would do the same way - as I enjoy too much of fabricating, doing research etc. gives a whole new aspect into the whole thing. I usually never let anyone else touch my projects, unless its upholstery work.

Firstly, I have a unique Finnish made 1977 Sisu off-road truck combination with prototype 1976 Sisu hydraulic driven trailer, another similar combination exists and its owned by Finnish War Museum (btw, Sisu is a small Finnish truck manufacturer). The truck weights 12200Lbs and is 20' long, the trailer has identical measures and is equipped with HIAB. The trailer is based on Sisu's Hydraulic Drive which they patented in the 50's(!), the combination is extremely competent in off-road conditions and deep snow. The idea is to have the snowcat on the trailer during the winters, and during summers it will transport my army assault boat (small, but 40 knots capable). Therefore its important I can quickly remove the snowcats roof, in case I have to cross a forest section I don't want to create any damage. This is kind of a "go-anywhere" setup... For support or short journeys I have Land Rover Defender TDI, which can also tow the snowcat with a small 2-axle trailer.

When I was in the Finnish Army serving the mandatory period, we sat on the beds of these trucks freezing our asses off when its was -40 Fahrenheits... Always liked them and their rugged design. The truck is currently under restoration (started on 2004) and will be finished on this year, trailer is in such a good condition only few hydraulic hoses need replacement.

Here's a sample what the truck will look like once its finished (forget the cannon - the German Authorities would hate it...):
2233905710102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Old picture of my trailer, sorry looks horrible. The rear tires have hydraulic drive, so powerful that one can use them to push the whole combination. The steering (2-speed forward, 1 reverse) is from drivers cabin via electronic joystick:
2160391590102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Secondly, I need means to transport the Sisu truck+trailer combination during long highway journeys - just to save the tires... Therefore I have a Swiss made FBW 6x4 truck, which originally was a concrete truck but I'm now converting it to semi-truck setup. They are very rare trucks and all were handbuilt, this one is 1974 and was equipped with Berliet twin-tandem axles (with locks) with 2-ratios, manual ZF-10 speed, Jakebrake and FBW Turbo-Diesel. The truck has only 267k miles and drives like new, its currently undergoing cabin restoration because I realized some point the front wall sealing had failed and therefore the whole front wall was rusted from inside, so much about Swiss quality, LOL. I'm looking for 2-3 axle low-loader trailer for it. Height, weight and width-wise the Sisu truck+snowcat setup should fit on it, and therefore its legal to drive in Europe. It makes it easy to move 2000 mile trips to North where I can play free with the off-road gear :clap:

Here's the photo of the truck, you have to imagine rest... It will get a big crane one day behind the cab once I find something in my price range. The cabin will be black once the restoration is finished within couple of months. Funny, it looks smaller than it really is, the roof will be about 15 inches higher because I want more room for overnight stay:
2405630510102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Thirdly, all vehicles incl. the boat will get SEM-35 Military Radios, I've owned about 10 of these and they are very rugged and excellent for backbag- or vehicle-setup, they work either by batteries or 24V. They are quite cheap to buy, and unbelievable quality for the money. I have antennas from 2 feet to 20 feet so that should offer enough coverage. Shown is vehicle setup for the trucks, I'm still not sure weather I use the backbag setup for the snowcat, or use 12>24V converter. Of course there's a selection of different microfones, headgear, intercom etc.:
2333154390102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


So, thats the starting point and idea for everything...
 

pixie

Well-known member
SUPER Site Supporter
WOW a hydraulically driven trailer ! Too cool !

The Swiss truck is handsome ! You have a great 'master plan' !!
 

Sisu

New member
I don't have many photos of my own boat, but found this from the internet - its slightly converted version which looks almost like mine. The Finnish Assault Boat is basically a very fast, low boat that carries 9 passengers (lying on the floor) and one driver. Its powered by big outboard engine, and like said - can reach 40 knots or more, as its almost flying on the surface of the water. I would say its like a fast bass-boat. The body is made of 4inch thick wood veneer and covered with thick layer of glassfibre (which they did in the factory), I can only describe it as robust (and basic), lenght is 20 feet and weight 825lbs.

In Finland there are over 56.000 lakes, so for the Army its important to have a light boat thats fast and doesn't give a big radar print.
2719734720102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Here's a photo of the Sisu Hydraulic Motor powering my trailer in case someone is interested:
2165963150102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


I'm sure many didn't know that this type of hydraulic motor is Finnish invention, created by an engineer who worked for Sisu Truck Factory. The engineer couldn't believe that no-one else had invented such an simple and effective motor, so they patented it on 1950's.
2010739720102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


---------------------
Coming back to the topic, I would imagine Thiokol Spryte's have the upper cabin made of aluminium? Mine - the part which is made in Switzerland - is made from steel, its actually the only part that has suffered from rust... I'm not sure why they chose steel for this purpose, anyway it means more work for me...

Back to the Master Plan... Today Ratrac, tomorrow THE WORLD!!!!
2799275820102303344S600x600Q85.jpg
 

mtn cat

New member
Many thanks for sharing,but it totall exhausts me thinking about all the work ahead of you. That hydrolic drive trailor is really unique.. my 1st snowcat was a thiacol and was all aluminum as you stated. It had the oc4 and tended to overheat and I didn't even have a plow or pull a drag. Keep the pics. comming.
 

Bulldog1401

Anybody seen my marbles?
SUPER Site Supporter
O.K. ..this hydraulic trailer is fascinating!! How do you disconnect the system for highway speeds? How do you sink it to the trucks speed offroad? Thanks.
 

Sisu

New member
Many thanks for sharing,but it totall exhausts me thinking about all the work ahead of you. That hydrolic drive trailor is really unique.. my 1st snowcat was a thiacol and was all aluminum as you stated. It had the oc4 and tended to overheat and I didn't even have a plow or pull a drag. Keep the pics. comming.
Well, to be honest I'm not that much worried about the work ahead of me, but the economy is getting worse and its getting harder to earn enough to keep the projects going.

Regarding the hydraulic trailer - thanks guys for your interest - there's a lever on the left side of the trailer where one chooses either hydraulic drive on or off. When the drive is off, the hubs turn freely. When the drive is on, the speed is controlled via joystick located next to the driver. Its not about max. speed (as it only works on 2 lowest off-road gears, the joystick has similar speed settings), but torque. There really is so much torque that one can push the whole combination in the forest-conditions without using the trucks own power.

There's one advantage of having separate joystick for the trailer drive, as once the combination gets stuck in a mud, snow or something - one can create "rythm" going back-and-forth with the trailer and truck applying power to trailer in exactly the right point. Hard to explain, but sometimes its good to fastly change the pull direction of the combination from trailer to the truck. My English reaches its limits here, LOL.

Some photos which I scanned from two excellent books (ISBN: 952-5026-50-7 and ISBN: 978-952-5026-61-0), which are written by the gentleman who designed the trailer. He used to work for the Finnish Army but is now retired and writes books about the Finnish army vehicles. His information helped a lot and with all the docs and books -I should be able to finish the project this year.

Most of the photos are from the "Winter Camp" mid-70's test session in Finnish Lapland. As you can see they used a snowplow in front of the truck during off-road driving in deep snow.
2950317430102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2734670630102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Naturally the bed sides are removable within minutes. The lever which connects the hydraulic drive can be seen left side of the chassis, under the crane and left side of its support leg:
2746504520102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Here's the design for the hydraulic motors:
2596884360102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


The reason why this and the other trailer in War Museum were the only ones - was the cost. The Army wasn't willing to invest enough money for the project to get the production going, the prototype trailers itself were a success.

...And for last, here's the current status of my Sisu truck... Well, not exactly true because I've been working with the other stuff, fabricated new cabin and bed etc. Hope to get it back together soon!
2136471690102303344S600x600Q85.jpg
 
Last edited:

Bulldog1401

Anybody seen my marbles?
SUPER Site Supporter
Thanks for an informative post!! It's not hard to imagine the usefulness of the powered trailer. Sounds like a very nice set up!
 

Sisu

New member
I was very lucky on last Friday receiving a call from a friend. He told he's standing next to a Ratrac snowcat that can be bought very cheaply. It has wide tracks which I could be interested of.

Of course I immediately jumped up and went to see the snowcat. Someone had taken the snowcat to the metal recycling place and so I could buy it for 500,- Eur incl. the tracks. I can't believe my luck! Now I can replace my C4-rear-end, and will actually combine parts from both old&"new" machines to create a wide track snowcat, but with the heavy duty parts from this machine. Both have Ford Industrial engines - great(!) - a working spare engine sounds good! Did I tell I purchased a full DVD-pack containing all Galactica Episodes? Yes, I'm interested of building something that looks like a Land Ram!!

This Ratrac was brought to the metal recycling place because the hydraulic tool in the rear got damaged and they just thought it was cheaper to buy a new snowcat... It was fully working when brought, but someone stupid took off the tracks buy cutting them half... So, new rubber has to be bought - but all the aluminium track parts are almost like new!!!

2732695800102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2281572040102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2390837620102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2811784260102303344S600x600Q85.jpg
 
Last edited:

Sisu

New member
2395236910102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2839733350102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2922925900102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


Silly - someone cut the tracks in two parts per side... So here's the other side... Look the aluminium parts are almost like new!:
2866918410102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


2850414950102303344S600x600Q85.jpg


So, to me it looks like OC-12 or similar rearend, right? At least it can't be wimpy C4!!!
 

Bobcat

Je Suis Charlie Hebdo
GOLD Site Supporter
can't see no stinking pictures...still waiting for 'webshots'. :hammer:


just upload the darn pictures here. :glare:






And forget the Land Ram. Try the 'Chariot' from Lost In Space'. It was built on a Spryte chassis.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XS5BQBOou1w"]YouTube - First Season Chariot COLOR Footage.[/ame]



:biggrin:
 
Last edited:

Mainer

Boggie likes our museum
SUPER Site Supporter
What a find! Those tracks are gorgeous and the OC-12... you have quite an interesting collection of goodies.
 
Top