• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

And I was dissapointed

Cowboyjg

Country Club Member
Site Supporter
And you should be...in fact you should be outraged. The part that makes me angry is the lack of authorization/ warrants. I suggest that there would have been justification enough but then the process would have made it public. That is where the conflict is. They need to keep it quiet for it to work and they can't if they have to get the OK.

Edited to include.....As Rep. Barr put it.."The way it's implemented" I can understand the need. It's the lack of control and accountability that I have a problem with
 

Cityboy

Banned
People tend to forget we are at war with Islamo-fascism. The endless debate in the media is nothing more than an attempt to discredit the Bush Administration. Why is this so hard for people to see?

Why would you want to stop the NSA from bagging terrorists? This very public debate has harmed our national security and provided classified information to our enemies.

More politicians looking for political gain at the demise of national security.
 

Archdean

New member
I really have about had it with the crippled thinking that is overtaking the American mind set in this country!!

While the left and some fence siting middle of the roadies (don't get me started on this panty waisted finger in the air group) are wringing their hands and rushing to-wards the camera to espouse their shock and horror with great glee and almost tasting the word "SPY" as they let it spew from their mouth are the very same that couldn't get there fast enough to denounce the CIA/FBI for not having gathered sufficient intelligence about the WMD's and the other important issues we are all going to have visited upon us at some point in the future!!!!

Just how in hell are you supposed to get information ?? Might be an appropriate question these morons surely can not answer!!

Dean
 

OkeeDon

New member
There has been sufficient information posted about how one gets the needed information. Warrants for all of the necessary eavesdropping are obtained through the court. The statement that this process is too slow is a flat lie; there is a process to do the eavesdropping first, and get the warant retroactively. The laws that require this are established by our Constitution and it's protection of privacy. It's interesting that the people who pretend so earnestly to be strict Constitutionalists on other matters, such as the second amendment, can be so willing to ignore the Constitution when their so-called leader gets caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

There are good Republicans who are just as upset about this illegal activity as some of the Democrats are; this is not something that can be put off by claiming "liberal bias" or "ACLU". I can't believe that ANY true conservative would try to shrug off a violation of our basic rights.

The fact that the administration condoned this practice, and continues to defend it, can only mean one thing -- they have something to hide. I don't know what it is they're hiding, but it should scare every citizen in their boots to think that the administration can so cavalierly ignore our laws.

You should think of this: Administrations change. Not every administration sees things the same way. If this administration gets away with violating the laws for something they think is important, the precedent has been set, and some future administration can/will take the same action for what they think is important. The difference is, you might not agree, next time, and it might be your privacy they disregard.

If that happens, you won't have a leg to stand on, because you thought it was OK to ignore the laws, this time. Don't you understand, that's why we are a government of laws, not men. Men made this decision, with disregard for the laws, and that should scare the heck out of you.
 

LarryRB

Member
last night, all the news stations mentioned CLinton and Carter and specific things they signed.... This is old news boys, not new.. So what, the NSA and probably others have been listening in on some conversations... We're talking about 500 people here, and all on some watch lists... This is taken out of context so much, it is sickening....Something that is not a big deal is quickly becoming WWIII.... The day will come when one intercepted phone call will prevent the "mother load" equal or worse than 9/11, then what will the complainers have to say then?
 

Archdean

New member
Don Don Don!!!

"The fact that the administration condoned this practice, and continues to defend it, can only mean one thing -- they have something to hide. I don't know what it is they're hiding, but it should scare every citizen in their boots to think that the administration can so cavalierly ignore our laws."

" Don't you understand, that's why we are a government of laws, not men. Men made this decision, with disregard for the laws, and that should scare the heck out of you."

Is there some secret thing that you eat for breakfast that somehow makes you think that the rest of us are incapable of thought and your hell bent on saving us from ourselves??

Don, Do yourself a favor curtail the lecture and the writing as though your reader is a rabid moron incapable of understanding unless we see the fervor of your position!!!

In a previous thread you stated to me on a very personal note the following, I'll just change the addressee!! : "Do I have that about right DON" !!!!

Dean
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Personally I dislike the practice. I see the need for checks and balances. I see nothing wrong with 'spying' on Americans, or 'spying' on people who are here in the US and non-citizens. But I believe there needs to be reasonable doubt and reasonable evidence, at that point we can follow due process. Now if we need an accelerated process in some instances then I would agree to it, provided it is still a process and provided there are checks and balances. I do not believe that a Presidential order is enough to warrent breaking the law, nor do I believe that 'a time of war' or similar situation warrents breaking the law. Again, I'm saying it is OK to spy within our borders but giving up essential freedoms are not an acceptable way to maintain our overall freedoms. This is a massive slippery slope issue.

I don't see where we should abandon our Constitution and our laws to give the President the power to spy without due process. If the process is broken then fix that, and then follow the new process.
 

Archdean

New member
"nor do I believe that 'a time of war' or similar situation warrents breaking the law."

I encourage a rethink be undertaken on your above statement! Laws are written in times of vastly different circumstances and per say rarely are elastic enough to encompass such a narrow description!!


'WARRANTLESS' SEARCHES NOT UNPRECEDENTEDBy Charles HurtTHE WASHINGTON TIMES-----------------------------------------------------------Previous administrations, as well as the court that oversees national security cases, agreed with President Bush's position that a president legally may authorize searches without warrants in pursuit of foreign intelligence. "The Department of Justice believes -- and the case law supports -- that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes and that the president may, as he has done, delegate this authority to the attorney general," Clinton Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick said in 1994 testimony before the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence. That same authority, she added, pertains to electronic surveillance such as wiretaps. More recently, the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court -- the secretive judicial system that handles classified intelligence cases -- wrote in a declassified opinion that the court has long held "that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information." Such warrantless searches have been at the center of a political fight in Washington after the New York Times reported Friday that the Bush administration had a program to intercept communications between al Qaeda suspects and persons in this country, a story whose publication coincided with the congressional debate over reauthorizing the USA Patriot Act. In a 2002 opinion about the constitutionality of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) and the USA Patriot Act, the court wrote: "We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President's constitutional power." Indeed, previous administrations have used that same authority. One of the most famous examples of warrantless searches in recent years was the investigation of CIA official Aldrich H. Ames, who ultimately pleaded guilty to spying for the former Soviet Union. That case was largely built upon secret searches of Ames' home and office in 1993, conducted without federal warrants. In 1994, President Clinton expanded the use of warrantless searches to entirely domestic situations with no foreign intelligence value whatsoever. In a radio address promoting a crime-fighting bill, Mr. Clinton discussed a new policy to conduct warrantless searches in highly violent public housing projects. Previous administrations also asserted the authority of the president to conduct searches in the interest of national security. In 1978, for instance, Attorney General Griffin B. Bell testified before a federal judge about warrantless searches he and President Carter had authorized against two men suspected of spying on behalf of the Vietnam government. That same year, Congress approved and Mr. Carter signed FISA, which created the secret court and required federal agents to get approval to conduct electronic surveillance in most foreign intelligence cases. A Washington Post report at the time said the new FISA law permits "the government (primarily NSA with the occasional help of an FBI 'black bag job' or break-in) to continue electronic spying without a court order if it is directed solely at the premises or communications of 'official' powers, such as governments, factions or entities openly known to be directed and controlled by foreign governments." The year after FISA became law, a columnist in The Washington Post described what could still happen to any person or group determined to be "an agent of a foreign power." "Once the attorney general has made that finding about someone, then the FBI can spy on them or burglarize their offices," wrote William Greider in a May 1979 column. The Bush administration and Republicans on Capitol Hill say terrorist cells in this country are precisely what those FISA loopholes were intended for, even if they don't represent a traditional enemy state. "Following the 9/11 attacks, it was obvious that al Qaeda utilized high-tech communication systems and modified its communication methods to avoid surveillance," Sen. John Cornyn, Texas Republican, said. Mr. Cornyn and other Republicans have agreed with Democrats that hearings are necessary to learn more about Mr. Bush's domestic spy policy. There remains disagreement, however, over whether those hearings should be open to the public. One area certain to be discussed in any hearings would be the use of warrantless searches in previous administrations. In an interview yesterday, Miss Gorelick acknowledged her testimony before Congress but said it pertained to presidential authority prior to 1994, when Congress expanded FISA laws. Left unanswered, she said, is whether that congressional action trumped the president's "inherent authority." "The Clinton administration did not take a position on that," she said.
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
I am not going to be drawn into the debate and I am not going to take side, but I will remind ALL participants in this thread that I intend to make sure that all of you remain civil in your comments to each other. There are already comments posted that are borderline and I don't want to continue down this road. The rules are clearly posted and there will be NO flaming. Everyone, please take a moment to reflect on what you post before you hit the final posting button. There is no reason that we all can't get along with differences of opinions and still keep the discussion with a civil tone.
Thanks
Junkman
Super Moderator (that means that I am the guy with the big stick!! :D)
 

Archdean

New member
Don,

I believe strongly that we, as two participants in this forum are able to have meaningful and respectful disagreements , you may from this point forward count on my word!! What say you?

Dean
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Thanks Junk!!!!! Well spoken!

Okay, question for all. So far 147 have viewed this thread (some more than once). How many changed there mind/opinion on the matter?
I'll venture a guess. No one!!!!
Please remember to be civil. No one will win these discussions. No one will change anothers mind. No sense in getting into personal battles that in the end everyone including FF looses.
....And most of all, we don't want Junk to have bring out that big stick now do we?
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
OkeeDon said:
Don't you understand, that's why we are a government of laws, not men. Men made this decision, with disregard for the laws, and that should scare the heck out of you.



Don,

What you said above is absolutely right. I don't think there was nothing wrong with the NSA listening but we do have laws and them laws should be followed. If the President can do it why can't I??? Under the circumstances of 911 if the proper procedures would have been followed we would not be discussing this right now. The President or the NSA would have gotten an approval within 30 seconds I am sure.


Murph
 

OregonAlex

New member
So we are just supposed to trust the whitehouse when they say that they only used this for anti-terrorism purposes?

That is a good one. I am sure no one in the whitehouse cares about how to go about having an edge on political opponents in the future and would ever dare to use it in any way unrelated to terrorism.

Watergate was just a fluke. ;-) I don't have to remind any of you that this was the exact reason for POST activity checks and balances in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. You just can't go around spying on anyone you want without making a record of it someplace after the fact. Without this record of the surveillance, the power is just prone to abuse as in the case of Watergate.



What amazes me is no one used this "awesome" technology to discover that this information was being leaked to the newspaper. Ironic.. dont you think.

.... and the statement that the media is to blame because terrorists now suddenly have an edge on us because they NOW KNOW that someone could be doing secret phonetaps on them.... that takes the cake... and frankly is very insulting to the intelligence of most citizens. where do they come up with this? who comes up with this?? Word of advice.. .fire this spin "master" immediately for allowing this statement to be feed into the president remarks.

Are they thinking most Americans are idiots? The Terrorists have been ignorant to the fact that their conversations could be monitored??? But now they are wize to the governement monitoring? WTF?
 
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Archdean

New member
"Watergate was just a fluke. ;-) I don't have to remind any of you that this was the exact reason for POST activity checks and balances in the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. You just can't go around spying on anyone you want without making a record of it someplace after the fact. Without this record of the surveillance, the power is just prone to abuse as in the case of Watergate."

How as a citizen can you know that a record is or was not made with the information at your disposal to date!!

We elect our leaders to do what we can not,, agreed we have been brilliant and naive in our choices, depending on your OX (gored or blessed)!!

I can't imagine anything more irresponsible then to make every Tom /Dick/or Jane privy to things that they are at best unable to even spell!!!

Dean
 

OregonAlex

New member
Archdean said:
How as a citizen can you know that a record is or was not made with the information at your disposal to date!!

We elect our leaders to do what we can not,, agreed we have been brilliant and naive in our choices, depending on your OX (gored or blessed)!!

I can't imagine anything more irresponsible then to make every Tom /Dick/or Jane privy to things that they are at best unable to even spell!!!

Dean
Just to make sure.....are you saying that
"we shouldn't have our government keep records of their monitoring because the average citizen won't be reading the records anyways?"

I like that... wonder if that will be the next big spin on this subject.

We shouldn't keep records because doing so will put our country in great danger.. and besides the average citzen would be bored with our records keeping anyways. Just let us do our job and look the other way.. trust us. :whistle:
 

BoneheadNW

New member
Archdean said:
"I can't imagine anything more irresponsible then to make every Tom /Dick/or Jane privy to things that they are at best unable to even spell!!!

Dean
Just let the pres, veep and their men take care of everything. That is their job anyway. And if Tom/Dick/or Jane asks questions, screw em. As the president said some time ago, "You are either with us, or against us."
Bonehead
 

Archdean

New member
OregonAlex said:
Just to make sure.....are you saying that
"we shouldn't have our government keep records of their monitoring because the average citizen won't be reading the records anyways?"

I like that... wonder if that will be the next big spin on this subject.

I said no such thing!! You said "You just can't go around spying on anyone you want without making a record of it someplace after the fact."

My response is as previously stated!!

Dean
 

OregonAlex

New member
Archdean said:
I said no such thing!! You said "You just can't go around spying on anyone you want without making a record of it someplace after the fact."

My response is as previously stated!!

Dean
help. I can't figure out which response you are referring to.

:confused:

-average citizen.
 

Archdean

New member
BoneheadNW said:
Just let the pres, veep and their men take care of everything. That is their job anyway. And if Tom/Dick/or Jane asks questions, screw em. As the president said some time ago, "You are either with us, or against us."
Bonehead

Not what I said nor implied, however in retrospect if I took the time to train each and every passenger as to the information I recieved prior to takeoff I seriously doubt that we would ever get airborne , hence you put your trust in your pilot to make those decisions and interpretations for you in your best interest!!

You really want the sleepy long haired dude in sandals occupying seat C Isle 17 to have to be fully cognizant in all PIC (pilot in command) duties to sign-off on my decisions to take off and until he says ok with me man your cool , you can go now!!!!

Dean
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Good article by "John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States"

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

Favorite quote:

"But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again."

My take on this whole thing is that it is another spin session by some sour grapes to make something into an issue that it isn't.
 

OregonAlex

New member
Archdean said:
Not what I said nor implied, however in retrospect if I took the time to train each and every passenger as to the information I recieved prior to takeoff I seriously doubt that we would ever get airborne , hence you put your trust in your pilot to make those decisions and interpretations for you in your best interest!!

You really want the sleepy long haired dude in sandals occupying seat C Isle 17 to have to be fully cognizant in all PIC (pilot in command) duties to sign-off on my decisions to take off and until he says ok with me man your cool , you can go now!!!!

Dean
I maybe be wrong but I think running a democratic goverment is a little different then piloting a plane. But then, I am by no means a pilot or a law maker.


btw,

I would like to know which airline is allowed by the FAA to operate the plane without recording your conversations to the tower and without a black box? Somehow I think the average citizen would find comfort knowing that records are kept, so that after a crash they can determine what really went wrong.

Then again.. maybe pilots are immune to keeping records and should be trusted with the lives of hundreds of passengers without any need to keep any sort of log of his/her actions.

We trust the lives of millions of Americans to the goverment, why not pilots?

btw, I, and when I say "I", I mean me. ...wouldn't prejudge the mental capacity of that sleepy long haired dude in sandals occupying seat C Isle 17. He might be smarter then the pilot.
 
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OregonAlex

New member
I will keep it simple.

what is the harm of keeping records?


Besides checks and balances is the basis for our goverment. You take that away and what do you have?
 

Junkman

Extra Super Moderator
Re: And I was disappointed

not many checks left and there is not much left in the way of balance in the government. I believe that the only reason that the Republicans haven't pushed the nuclear option is that they are afraid that it will be used against them if and when they no longer control the government branches.
 

OregonAlex

New member
Re: And I was disappointed

Junkman said:
not many checks left and there is not much left in the way of balance in the government. I believe that the only reason that the Republicans haven't pushed the nuclear option is that they are afraid that it will be used against them if and when they no longer control the government branches.
There is always the press. Notice this leak was sent to the press not the democrats. Recall the same thing happened in Watergate.
 

Archdean

New member
OregonAlex said:
I maybe be wrong but I think running a democratic goverment is a little different then piloting a plane. But then, I am by no means a pilot or a law maker.


btw,

I would like to know which airline is allowed by the FAA to operate the plane without recording your conversations to the tower and without a black box? Somehow I think the average citizen would find comfort knowing that records are kept, so that after a crash they can determine what really went wrong.

Ok I'll try one more time The point is: If you are in dire need of an Emt unit do you first demand to see the records of certification then, during and in the yet to be written future, or can you accept a reasonable amount of trust that the folks in white with the red rotating lights paid for with your and your communities tax dollars are there to act in your best interest or, no matter what, you are damn well going to bleed to death because you will not /can not trust that they will do the right thing!!!!

Now on to the FAA /Correct but you will find yourself in a room without any smiling faces including your own at the terminial should you demand to see them prior to your boarding !!

Dean
 

OregonAlex

New member
Archdean said:
Ok I'll try one more time The point is: If you are in dire need of an Emt unit do you first demand to see the records of certification then, during and in the yet to be written future, or can you accept a reasonable amount of trust that the folks in white with the red rotating lights paid for with your and your communities tax dollars are there to act in your best interest or, no matter what, you are damn well going to bleed to death because you will not /can not trust that they will do the right thing!!!!

Now on to the FAA /Correct but you will find yourself in a room without any smiling faces including your own at the terminial should you demand to see them prior to your boarding !!

Dean
Dean,

I really can't continue with this debate... this analogy is soo far off topic that I don't even know to approach this analogy and relate it back to the issue at hand. Sorry, I mean no offence.. I just don't see a valid analogy between what you state above and my desire to have the governement keep records about who they are monitoring AFTER the fact.

Maybe someone else does.. sorry. I can't see it.

"what is the harm of keeping records"?
The EMT are force to keep records of what they do to me and my stats.
If I die in thier hands you are sure my lawyers will be asking for this records.
The fight maintaince crew are forced to keep records to make sure the black box is installed and operational before the plane leaves.
If the plane goes donwn and no black box is found or is not operation.. you can count that someone is going to be asking for the maintanence records.

Notice these records are all the things that would be reference AFTER the event. No one asks for these records before they get on a plane or get EMT treatment.. but you can bet records are still required to be kept in case of a review at a later date.

"what is the harm of keeping records?"
 
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Archdean

New member
Ok , it really isn't that difficult to see the point but to each his own, and I respect your decision!!
Dean
 

Archdean

New member
I accept your edit after my reply and appreciate it also!!

There is no harm in keeping records what-so-ever, in fact it protects the actionary as well as the actionees!!

And now we agree with the exception of the probability that you claim: "btw, I, and when I say "I", I mean me. ...wouldn't prejudge the mental capacity of that sleepy long haired dude in sandals occupying seat C Isle 17. He might be smarter then the pilot."

He may very well be but then again he may not!! You stick him up front if you like and I'll step down Sir!!

Dean
 
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