Thiokol Imp

After looking at a Spryte A-Model I found the Imp might be just as good to suite our needs. I found two Imp's a gentleman here in South West Colorado has for sale. The first one needs a new harmonic belt (I believe that is right) and he thinks the machine has about 1500 hours on it. He has owned the Imp for 20 years. He is asking $10,000 for this one. Steel grousers

The second Imp he has owned for 10 years and is the second owner. The Colorado Public service company was the original owner. He still has the Public Service sticker on the door. Both Imps are fully enclosed with about 6 seats. The second Imp has 1058 hours. He is asking $12,000 for this one. This Imp has a winch on the front and has aluminum grousers.

He is emailing me pictures this week. Are these machines worth the money and will they be good to use for back country skiing?

I think they would work well for your needs but you will have to build some racks for your equipment. I have been looking for a imp also and would like to see the pictures too. First find out if they are wide tracks and what model they are, the 1450 is a little bigger and has a 6 cylinder motor with an auto trans. The wide track is the one you will need for the deep powder snow in colorado. I would be interested in the other one thar you dont get so keep me informed . good luck Charlie.

From what I remember he stated they were I think 32" tracks. I know both have the Ford v4 motors. I need a cat that can haul about 5-6 people up a mountain slope about 15-20 degree. I'm kind of leaning toward the old Public Service cat with the aluminum tracks.

That means they are 1404 imp and may hold 5 people with gear . They also have a manual tranny in them . I would still be interested in the other one if the condition of it is good . Looking forward to . and any info. you can get, thanks. ps . what is a harmonic belt ?

Well as soon as I get pics I will post them. As for the harmonic belt I'm not sure myself. He stated that if it is not replaced the one on the machine could break and damage the radiator.

For hauling that number of people I wouldn't settle for less than the Super Imp 1450.

I'm guessing you're looking at one of the Imps on the bottom of this page...

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=9965&page=12

gs_adventure said:

Well as soon as I get pics I will post them. As for the harmonic belt I'm not sure myself. He stated that if it is not replaced the one on the machine could break and damage the radiator.

Click to expand...

I think that he is referring to the Harmonic Balancer which is the front crankshaft pulley on the engine that has the fan belts on it. It may have lost it's Vulcanizations on the two parts and will in fact come off at some point and make a mess under the hood... or it may have "Rotated" and the timing marks do not line up and can't be timed in the normal fashion. Either way, it would be a good deal to replace. That is also a red flag, that means the engine has backfired a few time really hard and the sharp jolts is what normally breaks the inner and outer parts apart. Anyway, keep your eyes open.

As for the prices, they seem to be a bit high for the market unless they look new when you see them. What shape are the track belts in? Are they cracked from sitting in the sun? That is type of questions you want to ask.

Post the photos when you get them!

Good luck

kgracey said:

For hauling that number of people I wouldn't settle for less than the Super Imp 1450.

Click to expand...

Recently I saw an Imp for sale that said "Seating for 8." I don't know if the 8 are elves, dogs, or children under 5 but I can't imagine getting more than 6 people, no gear, into an Imp and even then it would be PACKED. You could build the racks, etc... but 'gear' can be an awful lot depending. I would agree with KG that looking at a 1450 would be wise plus you get the OC-12 diff. Or look at a full-cab spryte (not sure if Snow Ops still has it for sale or not but his stretch Thiokol is nice). I'd recommend a 601 if your snow conditions were packed but they are not machines for powder as they sink rather than float due to weight and track size. You can load 8-12 into either a 601 or a full-cab spryte but those numbers would require gear on top as well.

I don't know if he still has it for sale, but there's a kick-A Tucker with a bus conversion on the back for sale in Idaho. It's too cool and you know this thing runs tip-top given the previous owner and business. Just an idea but these things are great and this thing is just the coolest thing on four tracks around...

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=14239

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=8361

bobpierce said:

I'm guessing you're looking at one of the Imps on the bottom of this page...

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=9965&page=12

Click to expand...

I don't know who has more blood hound in him... you or Boggie!

bobpierce - Yes I believe those are Dave's machines.

I will get more pics from Dave early this week and will post them. So after reading through others posts it is sounding more like the Imp may not be the right cat to haul 5-6 people in plus gear.

I liked the Tucker in the links above with the school bus shell. With the weight of the Tucker and bus shell would it float on the Colorado powder?

Good question on the float... everyone raves about Tuckers and floatability in powder so not sure if this puts it over the top on float factor...

gs_adventure:

I like your plan to take friends powder skiing, but I want to send out a bunch of alarms before you proceed. First, you will always be the driver of the snowcat so you won't be skiing. You are going to learn the nuances of a particular machine and know its sensitivities. Not even gas money is going to take care of the cost of running it - things that break will cost much more to fix and you're going to be the guy who's working the hardest to take the buddies powder skiing. You may have a friend you can trust to drive, but you're going to be worrying about how they'll handle the breakdown when you're a half-mile away. . . which often puts you back as the driver.

Next, you'll need some routes that you can access easily: level, gentle grade, etc. It will also be much easier to take the same trail twice once you've broken it down, otherwhise it'll be pretty slow going up a mountain with a bunch of people and gear.

Realize the dream, but approach the machine choice with some caution. Spend lots of time doing your research and make the choice once. Choose something with the highest reliability and service history. Anything that gives you less confidence will transform your fun into a major hassle. It's taken some time for me to venture off my property into the USFS land. . . and it's a good thing I didn't do that too quickly else the USFS would have their very own lawn ornament.

As far as the IMP, I bet you'd do fine with a Super Imp 1450 and three passengers + gear. Once machines get larger they are often too big for trailers.

kgracey - Thanks for the information and input. I understand the one who will be driving the most is me. I have an older son that I plan to teach the machine once I learn it. Then I'm not always the one driving. At this point of researching I do not think the Imp will be enough for what I have planned. I did find another Thiokol A model with a full cab and seating for at least 6. The entire cab is the aircraft fuselage aluminum color (raw) looks like no paint. They too are suppose to get me pictures this week and mail them. The track from what they stated has a few patches. It has the 36" tracks and the machine has 872 hours on it. The only problem is the cat is a days drive away. At least 10-12 hours one way. They are asking $9500 for the machine. I guess I will have to wait and see the pictures first. Again I will post them when I get them.

I could be wrong but is this the cat?
I'm not sure what purchase situation you've arranged but I saw this for sale up until a couple weeks ago. So, not sure if someone else bought and they are reselling it to you... I could be totally off base but unless they know it well, I'd be careful on a price until it's been fully analyzed. It may be fantastic and near perfect. Then again, I could have the totally wrong cat in which case, please disregard me! Just trying to help.

Yes that is the other snowcat I've been thinking about. Currently it is owned by a Search and Rescue. From talking to the gentleman on the phone they do not know much at all on the snowcat.

So are you saying this cat was owned by someone else and now being re-sold again? Does anyone have any further information on this cat?

The cat was in Council Idaho when I came across it. I was just sniffing around... but wasn't looking to buy so I didn't inquire...not because I didn't think it looked attractive just because it wasn't a 601. But, I thought it sold a couple of weeks ago to someone in Cali. So, I was bringing it up because I thought it sounded like the cat but thought it sold and someone was just flipping it to you without being able to provide you with the whole history, condition, etc...

This cat is still in Council. As far as I know they the Search and Rescue has owned the cat for 2 years or more. I think they said they bought it at an auction.

There is a lot of talk of history warranties and condition of used cats here it has been my opinion that all cats need work and if they don't then they are not being used. so here may be a different way at looking at used cats if you by a used cat there is a reason either some one upgraded it or they don't use it or bought it to make a buck on it but most are sold for some reason and you may just be buying someone else's headache . so i would say that no matter what cat you will by it will need work as i have stated before it is better to pay more at the start for a better cat because if you don't you will spend it later.

We sold this cat as a " donation" for The Council Idaho Search and Rescue a years ago, after taking it in trade from a large Calif. Utility Co. It Was in good condition, just has been setting around a lot and not use. I think the machine will need some track work and a lot of TLC. The custom cab was built in Utah for the original owner and was never painted and was in very good condition when donated. Council is 50 miles from our facility in Weiser. We do have several cats that we do not list on our web page due to the low price and quick turn over of our Fixer Up Cats and Others that will not fit into our Sales/Leasing program. Contact: Bill Guthrie 208-549-2501 or feel free to stop by any time for more information.

I was was up on Red Mtn Pass near Silverton last year and saw a Super Imp with wide tracks cruising uphill in deep unbroken powder and it had a full blade on the front. This was at 11,500' and it was doing fine. So I'd give it a thumbs up based on that.

mkntrakes - I agree with your view. Spend a little more and get a better cat with a little less work needed.

I'm going to continue to see what I can find here locally. I will post the Imp pics when I get them. The cat in Council is nice, but I think I will keep looking for a couple more weeks here locally.

gs_adventure - there's another solution if you can wait a bit. You could contact Boggie and have him do a complete mechanical teardown/rebuild on a machine of your choice. You'll spend more, maybe 2x as much, but you'll have something you can have a lot of trust in. That's what I'm doing when I'm done with TreeHugger (my current machine, a massive Skidozer hydrostatic diesel).

The fixer uppers are just money suckers that will drain you if not careful. It is often well worth the dollars to spend the extra and have a better platform to get it the way you want it. I see very little under 12K unless it is a standard Imp that is really snow worthy that I would trust to go to the top of the mountain and back. Also it is easy to spend 6 to 8K to rebuild a set of tracks with new grousers, belts and hardware. Now of course I have my "findmespot" rescue unit that will pay for a helicopter rescue for me. I may get braver but the cat will stay on the mountain as I wave bye bye broke down cat as it is not included with the rescue insurance.

I think you're right about this for a regular running cat... I really like that 1200 you had with the wood panel sides. Very tastefully done. However, I think it depends on what you're after... and even then it's still doable with an older cat. I know several guys that go into the oblivion in AK and WA almost trying to get into trouble with 601's and they run like a clock. If you look at old cats then there are some weaknesses based on advancements in material science, etc...however, some old stuff is built better than modern so it's give and take...and complexity is an issue as well. The more modern in some ways the more there is to go wrong and if something does happen out there...the more you can be screwed if it's electronic, etc... like working on a honda spaghetti engine rather than a Ford 300 industrial... that's more of an extreme contrast but just illustrative for argument sake.

At the same time, I think the older cats can absolutely be a seemingly bottomless money pit. Then again, if you buy a cat for $2K and put $10K into it then you may have a hell of a cat that is better than a straight up $12K cat. Then there are creature comforts, etc...but if you are rebuilding then you can do that how you like. For me, the fun is in the restoration and then the use. I looked at more modern cats but the fun or taking old back to new and better than new is so much fun. An interesting question to answer would be...as with SUV's that actually get used off-road... what % of cats out there actually go 'deep-tundra' like where fogtender goes? That's not to say other areas are not dangerous, but as an extreme litmus test... 10% 50%?

Thanks again for all the great suggestions and advice. I'm going to be heading down to SW Colorado to have a look at these Imps in the next week. I will bring my camera and post pics.