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If we bail out Greece, then what happens?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Greece is in turmoil, massive riots, murders, burning of buildings. The International Monetary Fund is looking to bail out Greece. Of that, roughly 35 BILLION DOLLARS will come from the US tax payers.

So if we bail out Greece and they don't actually change their spending ways, then what about the other LARGER economies that are in nearly as bad a shape as Greece?

And then what happens here INSIDE the USA because we have states like California, Illinois and New York that seem unable to cut spending, trim their budgets and act in a fiscally responsible way.

Will we just keep bailing out until the US is in the same shape as Greece and we simply collapse? By bailing out other nations, and then our own states, are we simply enabling bad behavior? And are we simply exhibiting the same bad behavior and will we fall for the same reasons?
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
I say simply let Greece default and be done with it, that also goes for our banks as well.
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Greece is in turmoil, massive riots, murders, burning of buildings. The International Monetary Fund is looking to bail out Greece. Of that, roughly 35 BILLION DOLLARS will come from the US tax payers.

So if we bail out Greece and they don't actually change their spending ways, then what about the other LARGER economies that are in nearly as bad a shape as Greece?

And then what happens here INSIDE the USA because we have states like California, Illinois and New York that seem unable to cut spending, trim their budgets and act in a fiscally responsible way.

Will we just keep bailing out until the US is in the same shape as Greece and we simply collapse? By bailing out other nations, and then our own states, are we simply enabling bad behavior? And are we simply exhibiting the same bad behavior and will we fall for the same reasons?
Bob ,
Did I read that right ? 35Billion ? I thought I read where it was from European countries who use the Euro .
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Bob ,
Did I read that right ? 35Billion ? I thought I read where it was from European countries who use the Euro .

I am NOT positive my number is correct, I caught the radio news and thought they said $35 BILLON DOLLARS was the United States "share" of the IMF bailout. Perhaps they said the USA share of the bailout is 35 Billion Euros???

Whatever the number, we citizens of the US are apparently taking part of the bailout. It is not just limited to the Euro-Zone nations.



I say simply let Greece default and be done with it, that also goes for our banks as well.

And do we also let California, Illinois, New York, NJ, Michigan and about a dozen total states default too?
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
If the US is expected to bail them out then something is really wrong. Great Britain was smart enough to stay of the European Union and we should be also. This falls on Germany to bail them out followed but the other 3 or 4 nations in trouble in the Union.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
If the US is expected to bail them out then something is really wrong. Great Britain was smart enough to stay of the European Union and we should be also. This falls on Germany to bail them out followed but the other 3 or 4 nations in trouble in the Union.

But the US, while not 'expected' to bail them out has pledged billions to the IMF to help.

And Great Britain is in serious financial shape too, they my actually be in just as bad a shape as Greece.


And not just to Joe, but to everyone/anyone, what about bailing out California, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, etc etc etc?
 

Bamby

New member
Guess Who's Paying For The Greece Bailout? That's Right -- YOU

The bailout outrages never stop.

Of the 110-billion Euro Greece bailout, 30-billion (approx $40 billion) will be paid for by the IMF.

The US supplies almost 20% of the IMF's funding (per quotas). So that means US taxpayers are providing ~$8 billion of the $145 billion going to kick the Greek can down the road.


That's the first outrage. (Why is this our problem?)


The second outrage is that, as in some of the US bailouts, our bailout money is JUNIOR to Greece's existing debt. That means that, over the next couple of years, the idiot banks that loaned bankrupt Greece money will get their money back. And then, when Greece runs out of cash again, we'll be left holding the bag (along with Germany and the rest of the folks who bailed Greece out).


In any normal financing, the lender of last resort would be SENIOR to all existing debt. It would get its money back first, before the other idiots got a penny.


In the Greece bailout, however, the new money we're putting in will be going right out the door to pay off existing lenders who would have lost their shirts. And if the Greece austerity measures don't work and there's nothing left for us? Tough.


(Why don't the existing creditors have to lose a penny? Same reason the AIG creditors didn't lose a penny. Because it would apparently be too traumatic to ask them to do that. The idea that the existing creditors might have to lose money was apparently so unthinkable that it was never even on the table).


It's nice of us to bail out Greece, isn't it? Can't we at least get the Parthenon as collateral or something?


Now see: How much the bailout is costing YOU >

Yep, we're already commented to the tune of 8 read it 8 billion dollars of mere dept we're to pay off. Can't have the bankers take a haircut or a loss could we.

 

tsaw

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Greece is in turmoil, massive riots, murders, burning of buildings. The International Monetary Fund is looking to bail out Greece. Of that, roughly 35 BILLION DOLLARS will come from the US tax payers.

So if we bail out Greece and they don't actually change their spending ways, then what about the other LARGER economies that are in nearly as bad a shape as Greece?

And then what happens here INSIDE the USA because we have states like California, Illinois and New York that seem unable to cut spending, trim their budgets and act in a fiscally responsible way.

Will we just keep bailing out until the US is in the same shape as Greece and we simply collapse? By bailing out other nations, and then our own states, are we simply enabling bad behavior? And are we simply exhibiting the same bad behavior and will we fall for the same reasons?

What you see happening in Greece is just looking into the future. The same thing will happen here in the U.S. Who will bail us out? Nobody can.
We have printed wealth out of paper. And spent it like toilet paper. It's all over.

The end of the paper fool money is upon us my friends. Think about what is going on in Greece.
That is what is going to happen all over the world!
I pray to Rusty - that it don't happen.
 

JEV

Mr. Congeniality
GOLD Site Supporter
And not just to Joe, but to everyone/anyone, what about bailing out California, Illinois, New Jersey, New York, etc etc etc?
Fuck California, New Jersey, New York, ect & ect & ect. All heavily unionized states that got their own asses in the deep shit they are in now. Let them rot in the mess they have created, or find a way to dig themselves out of the steaming pile THEY have created. My guess is if you get rid 30-50% of gubmit workers in those states, that the state would function just fine. Let THEM find out what "doing more with less" is all about. But no, the precious unions won't have any part of giving up what they so eloquently extorted from the people.

Fuckem all. They made their bed now let them sleep in it. The same goes for the voters who continue to put tax & spend politicians in office, knowing that ultimately it's the people who get fucked, never the gubmit.

As long as you have this government developed dependent class of people, you will have idiots to vote for you, and you can run amuck with the taxpayer's money. After all, it's not their own money they're playing with, and their fellow tax & spend crowd in Washington will bail you out because you're "too big to fail."

I better stop before I let my true feelings show through.
 

nixon

Boned
GOLD Site Supporter
Fuck California, New Jersey, New York, ect & ect & ect. All heavily unionized states that got their own asses in the deep shit they are in now. Let them rot in the mess they have created, or find a way to dig themselves out of the steaming pile THEY have created.

Of course in Your scenario the rest of the states will be unaffected .:yum:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Here is an interesting editorial, it shows the issues that Greece faces, spells doom for that nation, and also compares California's spending problems and how it totally fails to address the issues.

A Money Too Far
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/07/opinion/07krugman.html

By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: May 6, 2010
So, is Greece the next Lehman? No. It isn’t either big enough or interconnected enough to cause global financial markets to freeze up the way they did in 2008. Whatever caused that brief 1,000-point swoon in the Dow, it wasn’t justified by actual events in Europe.

Nor should you take seriously analysts claiming that we’re seeing the start of a run on all government debt. U.S. borrowing costs actually plunged on Thursday to their lowest level in months. And while worriers warned that Britain could be the next Greece, British rates also fell slightly.

That’s the good news. The bad news is that Greece’s problems are deeper than Europe’s leaders are willing to acknowledge, even now — and they’re shared, to a lesser degree, by other European countries. Many observers now expect the Greek tragedy to end in default; I’m increasingly convinced that they’re too optimistic, that default will be accompanied or followed by departure from the euro.

In some ways, this is a chronicle of a crisis foretold. I remember quipping, back when the Maastricht Treaty setting Europe on the path to the euro was signed, that they chose the wrong Dutch city for the ceremony. It should have taken place in Arnhem, the site of World War II’s infamous “bridge too far,” where an overly ambitious Allied battle plan ended in disaster.

The problem, as obvious in prospect as it is now, is that Europe lacks some of the key attributes of a successful currency area. Above all, it lacks a central government.

Consider the often-made comparison between Greece and the state of California. Both are in deep fiscal trouble, both have a history of fiscal irresponsibility. And the political deadlock in California is, if anything, worse — after all, despite the demonstrations, Greece’s Parliament has, in fact, approved harsh austerity measures.

But California’s fiscal woes just don’t matter as much, even to its own residents, as those of Greece. Why? Because much of the money spent in California comes from Washington, not Sacramento. State funding may be slashed, but Medicare reimbursements, Social Security checks, and payments to defense contractors will keep on coming.

What this means, among other things, is that California’s budget woes won’t keep the state from sharing in a broader U.S. economic recovery. Greece’s budget cuts, on the other hand, will have a strong depressing effect on an already depressed economy.

So is a debt restructuring — a polite term for partial default — the answer? It wouldn’t help nearly as much as many people imagine, because interest payments only account for part of Greece’s budget deficit. Even if it completely stopped servicing its debt, the Greek government wouldn’t free up enough money to avoid savage budget cuts.

The only thing that could seriously reduce Greek pain would be an economic recovery, which would both generate higher revenues, reducing the need for spending cuts, and create jobs. If Greece had its own currency, it could try to engineer such a recovery by devaluing that currency, increasing its export competitiveness. But Greece is on the euro.

So how does this end? Logically, I see three ways Greece could stay on the euro.

First, Greek workers could redeem themselves through suffering, accepting large wage cuts that make Greece competitive enough to add jobs again. Second, the European Central Bank could engage in much more expansionary policy, among other things buying lots of government debt, and accepting — indeed welcoming — the resulting inflation; this would make adjustment in Greece and other troubled euro-zone nations much easier. Or third, Berlin could become to Athens what Washington is to Sacramento — that is, fiscally stronger European governments could offer their weaker neighbors enough aid to make the crisis bearable.

The trouble, of course, is that none of these alternatives seem politically plausible.

What remains seems unthinkable: Greece leaving the euro. But when you’ve ruled out everything else, that’s what’s left.

If it happens, it will play something like Argentina in 2001, which had a supposedly permanent, unbreakable peg to the dollar. Ending that peg was considered unthinkable for the same reasons leaving the euro seems impossible: even suggesting the possibility would risk crippling bank runs. But the bank runs happened anyway, and the Argentine government imposed emergency restrictions on withdrawals. This left the door open for devaluation, and Argentina eventually walked through that door.

If something like that happens in Greece, it will send shock waves through Europe, possibly triggering crises in other countries. But unless European leaders are able and willing to act far more boldly than anything we’ve seen so far, that’s where this is heading.​
 

JEV

Mr. Congeniality
GOLD Site Supporter
Of course in Your scenario the rest of the states will be unaffected .:yum:
What part of "etc and etc and etc" don't you understand? Let me help you since by your statement you did not read the entire sentence. That means Fuck them ALL! Don't try to make me look stoopid. I can do that all by myself without your incompetent help. There, a serious answer with a bit of levity for the challenged among us.
 
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