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UNIONS stop pretending, clearly show support for Communism

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
If you can judge a person by his actions, instead of his words to determine his true intent then simply apply that to the SEIU. Take a look at the story, in one of the photos an SEIU organizer picks up a communist flag and marches with it along side his union members. The UAW is also represented alongside some of the communist groups in the parade/march. http://pajamasmedia.com/zombie/2011/05/06/seiu-drops-mask-goes-full-commie/

DSC_1802.jpg

JUST ENOUGH OF THE STORY FOR YOU TO GET THE IDEA, visit the link above to see lots of pictures of communist flags, SEIU posters, communist banners and the rest of the story:
A May Day rally in Los Angeles, co-sponsored by the SEIU and various communist groups, as well as other unions, reflected yet another step in the normalization of self-identified communist and socialist ideologies in the Obama era. Not only did the SEIU help to organize the rally in conjunction with communists, they marched side-by-side with communists, while union members carried communist flags, communists carried union signs, and altogether there was no real way to tell the two apart.

Southern California citizen journalist and photographer “Ringo” was on hand to record the day’s events, and posted a full-length photo essay on his site Ringo’s Pictures. To bring this important photo essay to a wider audience, I present here a small selection of Ringo’s May Day pictures; visit his site to see dozens more photos from the rally. . . .
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Funny how perceptions are different I see unions as free enterprise not communism. I find it the ultimate in free enterprise where the worker, you know the one that makes the goods has a say in the disbursement of the profits from said goods.
 

mak2

Active member
Funny how perceptions are different I see unions as free enterprise not communism. I find it the ultimate in free enterprise where the worker, you know the one that makes the goods has a say in the disbursement of the profits from said goods.

That's crazy thinking there Joe, paying workers a reasonable wage cuts into corporate profits. Cant have that. Next thing you know they will want healthcare. :whistling:
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
That's crazy thinking there Joe, paying workers a reasonable wage cuts into corporate profits. Cant have that. Next thing you know they will want healthcare. :whistling:

I agree god forbid those that actually build the products get as fair a share as those that put up the money. :yum::yum::yum:

As I said it is all perception nothing more.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Funny how perceptions are different I see unions as free enterprise not communism. I find it the ultimate in free enterprise where the worker, you know the one that makes the goods has a say in the disbursement of the profits from said goods.

Joe, I think the first half of what you wrote is not practically applied by unions. They obviously practice protection of the unproductive in virtually every industry.

On the other hand, I totally agree with the second half of what you wrote, but not solely limited to unions. We were union free at my old company, in fact we were Teamsters but they voted themselves out! We became a 50/50 employee owned company and employees were encouraged to have a say in all facets and were rewarded accordingly.

At my little cigar lounges we are strictly hourly wage but are now starting to develop some incentives and sales contests where the employees can influence both profits and their paychecks.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
And you don't think that those that produce your profits don't deserve a fair share? If I'm not mistaken that is what collective bargaining is all about. Now I've not belonged to a union in a very long time ('79) however my current job was based on bargaining also as any job is really. We all work for the most we can get for the job we do be it a 'boss' (money behind) and those that actually do the work. It would be a strange world if both sides had no say in what was fair, or don't you think that is fair. If so then I say as the money side then do it yourself.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
And you don't think that those that produce your profits don't deserve a fair share?
When did I say that?

Seriously when did I ever indicate that in anything I've ever written?

But there is a difference between fair compensation and a one-way set of demands that eventually bankrupts companies or government entities such as the Milwaukee teacher's compensation where the average pay fore each teacher is $102,000 per year and the city is effectively bankrupt. Or where companies (LTV Steel, Wisconsin Steel, Inland Steel, AMC, etc) are buried under pension obligations that are so 'generous' that they exceed all reason and were effectively extracted from the companies after prolonged strikes.

There are things that are fairly negotiated by unions but there are also wages and benefits that are effectively coerced and extracted at financial gunpoint. What is fair is fair. Quite often collectively bargaining leads to closing down of factories. That is, in fact, what has happened over the past 20 years, and it is, quite literally a direct result of 2 things which make us non-competitive in the world markets: government over-regulation and union extortion level compensation.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
When I worked for a union I always felt the union kept me from competing against my fellow workers in order to obtain higher wages. Seniority trumped effort and output and the union was a barrier to my obtaining a fair wage for my efforts.

Ultimately, the union protected the lazy (and obedient to the union) and worked against the ambitious and motivated worker.
 

jimbo

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Funny how perceptions are different I see unions as free enterprise not communism. I find it the ultimate in free enterprise where the worker, you know the one that makes the goods has a say in the disbursement of the profits from said goods.
Joe, unions are the exact opposite of free enterprise. In free enterprise each and every participant is allowed to negotiate it's own position. With a union the union makes the choice and the participants have no power to bargain based on their own worth to the consumer, which in this case is the employer. In fact, unions are the only legal monopoly in the country, and in closed shop states you are not even allowed to get a job without being in the club.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
When I worked for a union I always felt the union kept me from competing against my fellow workers in order to obtain higher wages. Seniority trumped effort and output and the union was a barrier to my obtaining a fair wage for my efforts.

Ultimately, the union protected the lazy (and obedient to the union) and worked against the ambitious and motivated worker.

Exactly what my wife is finding in her teaching job. She's been told to stop work at 3:20 each day and told she is making others 'look bad' by staying on the job until its done. Her pay is limited by her contract, and merit pay for higher results is impossible.

This year our governor signed new legislation that will 'pay for performance' and do several other things to reform teaching and education including making school choice an option statewide, as well as instituting the largest 'school voucher' system in the nation. Time will tell how it will work out but any change seems to be good.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
As a sheet metal worker I found it the opposite, but then I could not only read a blue print I could also do estimating which got me over scale. Scale is all that was promised but I never found it a hindrance to making more than that. I also can count the lazy workers I've meet in my life on less that 10 fingers over 20 years doing it.

I might add we got paid for hours worked, no paid holidays, retirement (paid ourselves) and health care (paid what the employer couldn't). Now no idea what union you belonged to PB but my was AFL/CIO and construction which is the only one I've ever belonged too.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Joe, unions are the exact opposite of free enterprise. In free enterprise each and every participant is allowed to negotiate it's own position. With a union the union makes the choice and the participants have no power to bargain based on their own worth to the consumer, which in this case is the employer. In fact, unions are the only legal monopoly in the country, and in closed shop states you are not even allowed to get a job without being in the club.

Really? How fair do those in the power to hire and fire without a union. A union is simply labor in a given field an equal footing with the powers that be to set a minimum price for a days labor. It is pretty much the same as a particular group of braininess getting together and deciding what the wage per hour will be. Oh and this is done by sitting down with management and coming to fair terms both agree on followed by a contract for X amount of time. With out unions in this country there would be no middle class, child labor laws, safety standards etc.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
I've belonged to several unions but when I was in the Newspaper Guild it was the worst. There were something like six other unions in house (electricians, pressman, machinists . . .) and they all competed against each other. It was pathetic. I got paid tons of money and barely worked but I just couldn't take the boredom - I needed a challenge.

I've also worked in supermarket unions and hospitality unions and they were all the same in their own ways. Protect the loyal union minion and punish anyone that bucked the system.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Well perhaps our experiences are different then however in my case I worked for every dime I made and got nothing when I didn't.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
When did I say that?

Seriously when did I ever indicate that in anything I've ever written?

But there is a difference between fair compensation and a one-way set of demands that eventually bankrupts companies or government entities such as the Milwaukee teacher's compensation where the average pay fore each teacher is $102,000 per year and the city is effectively bankrupt. Or where companies (LTV Steel, Wisconsin Steel, Inland Steel, AMC, etc) are buried under pension obligations that are so 'generous' that they exceed all reason and were effectively extracted from the companies after prolonged strikes.

There are things that are fairly negotiated by unions but there are also wages and benefits that are effectively coerced and extracted at financial gunpoint. What is fair is fair. Quite often collectively bargaining leads to closing down of factories. That is, in fact, what has happened over the past 20 years, and it is, quite literally a direct result of 2 things which make us non-competitive in the world markets: government over-regulation and union extortion level compensation.

And these companies didn't sit down with the unions and agree to sign a contract to that effect? I'm simply asking here Mel what is the difference between someone saying I will pay minimum wage compared to one decided by bargaining? The latter the employees had an input and to sit down with the employers as a group.

The business agreed to it based on their projections as did the employees and it didn't work out. Hence the fact you can renegotiate a new contract every so many years don't you think. Now most unions I've seen are willing to cut back on most things to save a buisness but not according to the current right which thinks they are a communist plot.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Joe, you never answered my question after you accused me of something.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Early on I needed a job and learned some plumbing and pipe fitting so I could apply to that union. I knew a member and knew I could do the work. I had experience and came close to getting in. The guy I knew told me another member's cousin was hired, and another members brother, and the son of a close friend of a union officer was hired. Experience / willingness to work meant nothing. It was a 'who you know' kind of job. To this day that is still how they operate.

In the long run they did me a favor but because of my experience I am very anti union. In some instances there is probably a need but in many others the workers would be better off without the union. E I Dupont is a good example in this area. Most plants here unionized. E I Dupont did not. Workers voted against unionizing. They are one of the few plants still open in this area. They still offer decent jobs where a worker can earn a decent wage. Unions are not required for workers to be treated fairly, but the union people want us to think they are required.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Now I worked for DuPont for about 5 years Doc. You do realize that if injured on a DuPont job you was shown as laid off the day before injured. I saw it more than once but will say this for them they did cover the medical expenses to keep their safety record perfect. I actually saw 3 men die on DuPont plants and their families got paid off to give the company line. I might say pretty fair trade also, not to take away from DuPont.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
How do you turn a rhetorical question into an accusation? :whistling:

It wasn't rhetorical. He indicated that I was opposed to paying people for their worth and even letting them have some say so in the profits, clearly saying I didn't believe in fair pay. That is clearly untrue and anyone who's been on these boards long enough to know me knows that I've been very open with my employees in sharing profits, paying employees on a merit based system, etc.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
It wasn't rhetorical. He indicated that I was opposed to paying people for their worth and even letting them have some say so in the profits, clearly saying I didn't believe in fair pay. That is clearly untrue and anyone who's been on these boards long enough to know me knows that I've been very open with my employees in sharing profits, paying employees on a merit based system, etc.

I didn't say jack about your business as I have no knowledge about what is involved be profits etc nor do I want to know. My point is unions in general period and most here need to look at the history before they existed and after. That should change some minds as to what difference they made.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Now I worked for DuPont for about 5 years Doc. You do realize that if injured on a DuPont job you was shown as laid off the day before injured. I saw it more than once but will say this for them they did cover the medical expenses to keep their safety record perfect. I actually saw 3 men die on DuPont plants and their families got paid off to give the company line. I might say pretty fair trade also, not to take away from DuPont.

I never worked for Dupont, but my brother does. I've never heard of anything such as faking where someone was injured, but not saying it could not happen. They do stress safety and number of days without a work related injury. Seems like a fair company to work for from my bro's experiences.

Joe, do you think a union would make Dupont a better or a worse place to work?
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
I never worked for Dupont, but my brother does. I've never heard of anything such as faking where someone was injured, but not saying it could not happen. They do stress safety and number of days without a work related injury. Seems like a fair company to work for from my bro's experiences.

Joe, do you think a union would make Dupont a better or a worse place to work?

DuPont for the most part is Union Doc. This has been going on for years but like I said they pay 100% of the medical as well as back pay to employees injured at least when I worked for them through '79. Now I don't know if this was an agreement with the union or not but either way they are a Union plant at least in the US. Oh and their safety record is their choice of proving they are a great US company. I might add here to satisfy the right wing among us that they really are a pretty good company to work for and are really fair with their employees though others aren't.
 

jimbo

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
DuPont for the most part is Union Doc. This has been going on for years but like I said they pay 100% of the medical as well as back pay to employees injured at least when I worked for them through '79. Now I don't know if this was an agreement with the union or not but either way they are a Union plant at least in the US. Oh and their safety record is their choice of proving they are a great US company. I might add here to satisfy the right wing among us that they really are a pretty good company to work for and are really fair with their employees though others aren't.
Just curious, Joe, what do you think would happen at DuPont if they decided instead of renegotiating the contract they chose to go non union, or perhaps move their operations to a right to work state
 

Lia

Banned
With out unions in this country there would be no middle class, child labor laws, safety standards etc.

I for one, entirely agree with this statement. Unions have brought about untold commendable solutions to many injustices and crimes against the young. and workers… however, there is another side to them that has to be addressed. They don’t always help where they could, and should. Take this case as just one example:

The New York Times had an eye-opening story about abuses in state-run homes for the elderly and disabled in New York this weekend. In particular, the article highlights how unions are aggressively defending those workers accused of very serious crimes:
The Times reviewed 399 disciplinary cases involving 233 state workers who were accused of one of seven serious offenses, including physical abuse and neglect, since 2008. In each of the cases examined, the agency had substantiated the charges, and the worker had been previously disciplined at least once.In 25 percent of the cases involving physical, sexual or psychological abuse, the state employees were transferred to other homes.The state initiated termination proceedings in 129 of the cases reviewed but succeeded in just 30 of them, in large part because the workers’ union, the Civil Service Employees Association, aggressively resisted firings in almost every case. A few employees resigned, even though the state sought only suspensions


Read more at the San Francisco Examiner: http://www.sfexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/03/nyt-public-sector-unions-defending-workers-accused-abuse-and-sexu#ixzz1LqQtWUSt

In many cases they take things to the extremes of ridiculous… and this isn’t the only case in hand, but merely a small part of some of their more unpalatable tactics. Take the Police Chief that was mentioned in another thread here, where he was required by law to apprehend a felony in progress, or if he suspected there might be one about to take place, even when off duty, yet he was vilified by his own Union, who had their own rules about this, and its members who worked under him, for doing so.

Just making the distinctions here… they can do wonderful things, but on the other hand, they can be worryingly sinister in their dealings… Moreover, one can't get away from the fact that a proportion of their members are very definitely pro communism.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
Just curious, Joe, what do you think would happen at DuPont if they decided instead of renegotiating the contract they chose to go non union, or perhaps move their operations to a right to work state

They have always been open shops using both non union and union. For the most part only the construction was done by mostly union companies, though on a contract basis.

Oh and they have several plants between Lake Charles LA and Houston TX with 3 just outside of Beaumont TX.
 
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