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Economy Cars ... my new VW Jetta TDI (diesel) vs Toyota Prius

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Sorry, no pictures yet.

I picked up my new 2010 Jetta TDI a couple days ago and am really impressed with this little car.

A couple observations, first the Jetta is considered an economy car, but this car priced out at something just north of $30,000 so its not cheap to buy. That said, when I looked at the dealer's inventory on Jettas, in various configurations of sedans and wagons, gas and diesels, not one other vehicle was within $4000 of what I paid and several were showing stickers almost $10K less than I paid. So clearly this is a car that can be economical, or it can be optioned up to a 'near' luxury compact car. My particular car is obviously optioned up with lots of goodies.

But what impresses me most about the car is not all the fancy doo-jiggies and thing-a-mabobs that I added to it, but rather the little diesel engine.

I've got just over 230 miles on the car. Picked it up with 9 miles on the odometer. The little computer read out on the dash board is telling me that my "average" fuel economy, as of this morning, is 40.4 miles per gallon. That is combined mileage. I drive a lot of rural 2 lane roads and a lot of suburban driving, but so far I've not driven anything that would be called 'city' driving.

Now I could probably get similar fuel economy with a Toyota Prius. And when I checked those the price, similarly equipped, was in the same ball park of $30-$32,000.

But there are some HUGE differences between the VW diesel and the Prius. First off, the interior of the cabin of the VW is very much like a real car :biggrin: Ok, very much like a small car. Both have very nice interiors with leather seats and quality trim pieces. Both, equipped the same, have nifty navigation computers, and stereo systems that have telephone bluetooth integration to automatically switch to speaker phones if a call comes in/goes out. But the Prius does it and makes you fell like (clearly my opinion) you are sitting in a dining room chair in front of a computer pin ball machine without any real road feel. To say the Prius is a fun or exciting car to drive (again my opinion) would be an outright lie. The Jetta TDI, on the other hand, handles very nicely and has an amazing amount of low end torque so it feels very peppy. Its actually fun to drive the Jetta TDI. And while it is a small car, it feels very substantial and grounded. Modern VWs are generally known for being heavy for their class, and while I didn't look up the weights on either the Prius or the Jetta it sure feels like you are in a much more substantial car in the Jetta. To me (again opinion inserted) the Prius felt very light, and while that is not necessarily bad, it did not inspire a lot of confidence in what would happen in a wreck; clearly that is just a perception on my part but going over bumps in a Prius versus going over bumps in a Jetta TDI are two different types of experiences. The Jetta TDI doesn't seem to bounce around like a wild pin-ball but seems to stay grounded better. My neighbor regularly bottoms out her Prius on our rough country roads here, but I've yet to do that in the new Jetta (perhaps I've not found the right bump yet?).

As it is, I've driven about 230 miles on just over 1/3rd of a tank of gas. In theory I will get, if I continue with a similar driving pattern, almost 600 miles out of roughly 13 gallons of fuel. With my Touareg I've got a fuel tank roughly double that size and I'm getting about 400 miles per tank of gas (or about 350 miles between refuels because I don't run it empty).

Seats in the Jetta, are very supportive. I'm 6' and gained a bit of weight so I'm currently tipping the scales at 200#. The seats have lateral support to hold in a driver and I suspect they would not be confining if the driver weight 20 to 30# more than I do. As it is, I'd actually like the seat bolsters a bit narrower to provide a bit more support. Seating surfaces in my car are a very nice perforated leather with a too slippery finish. Again, not great for driving aggressively if you combine a slippery finish with wide side bolsters, but then again this car is not a race car. From the appearance standpoint these are very nice seats, and for normal driving I can find no fault in them. Standard seats for this car are shaped and sized identically but have cloth covering. I suspect those would provide more grip and would probably be more suitable for sport driving.

A couple things I don't like about the Jetta TDI. No matter what configuration I tried, I could not order it with "automatic" headlamps. That is a simple convenience item that I have on my other cars and really like. Another feature not available is an auto-dimming mirror. I've contacted a custom shop and will be adding an aftermarket variant. My Touareg has auto-dimming mirrors inside and outside and with country drivers who often have their bright lights on, those are a great option.
 

Erik

SelfBane
Site Supporter
good review - SWMBO and I both like the looks of the TDI Jetta but it's not currently in the budget. As we have just under 4 miles of gravel between home and blacktop - and we do a LOT of highway driving, the small diesel looks like a better option for us than a hybrid like the prius.
(our actual ideal would be an AWD with small, high effeciency diesel, but that's not likely to ever be in the budget)
 

Melensdad

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I think a Prius is going to be more economical if you have a higher % of city driving but clearly loses its advantage on the highway where the diesel matches or beats the hybrid for economy.

We have SOME gravel roads around us, but mostly we have bumpy roads if you get off of the main rural roads. I would NOT want to ever take a Prius on a gravel road and the bumpy roads are pretty marginal for a Prius because of its tiny tires and low ground clearance.
 

Viking

New member
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Great review Bob! Thanks.

I have been kicking around the idea of buying a Jetta TDI. I have a diesel, 1 ton, crew cab, 4x4, dually truck and a gas, half ton, 4x4 truck. My larger diesel gets better MPG than the 1/2 ton. I love my diesel truck and wish that GM or Ford would put a small diesel in a sedan and a small truck. What are they waiting for! I prefer GM and Ford and have not owned a foreign car in over 20 years but the VW diesels sure are tempting.

Wouldn't it be easier and more cost efficient to develop a clean running, fun to drive, efficient diesel engine for a Ford Fusion or Chevy Malibu, for instance, than throwing 100's of millions of $'s into all this hybrid technology? Advanced diesel technology already exists and is in wide use as is evident in the Jetta TDI and many other European passenger vehicles.
 
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Melensdad

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Funny thing about Ford, they have a Ford in England that gets 65mpg with a small diesel engine. The President of Ford said there was no interest in bringing that engine to America because the market for diesels is too small here.

Seems to me that engine could pull double duty if they put it in a Ford Ranger and also in a Focus. There are plenty of people looking for economical but still fun to drive vehicles.

In my case I wanted a combination of fuel economy, fun to drive, and modest luxury. My Jetta TDI gives me virtually unbeatable fuel economy, and so far it seems to meet/exceed my expectations on being both fun to drive and with most of the luxury features I wanted. Yes, I'd like a few more luxury features, and I'm looking into adding them as aftermarket. But even in the BASE model Diesel TDI Jetta it comes very nicely equipped for about $23,000. There is an "alternative fuel" tax credit of $1300 that you get off your taxes to that brings the cost down to roughly $21,700. The Toyota Prius does not qualify for the "alternative fuel" tax credit but the BASE model Prius seems to run in the range of $22 - $23K.

Clearly if you are looking for PURE ECONOMY then a Kia or Toyota Yaris, or a whole host of other cars are going to be even better on the pocket book because they can be purchased for so much less that even with lower fuel economy they would cheaper. BUT that said, for a comparable car to either the JETTA TDI or the PRIUS, then I think the costs will be similar and the economy will be better with either of these 2 vehicles than most others.

TO BE TOTALLY HONEST, there is a HYBRID from Honda that I did not consider or price. THAT may compare favorably to the Jetta TDI or PRIUS but I simply don't know about it.

In all the payback models I did, the Jetta TDI, even with the higher cost of fuel, has a quicker payback than the Prius (but my models may not be suitable for other people's driving).
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Do you know how many "battery cooling fans" I've had to replace on hybrid cars with service contracts? Hell, I didn't even know they had to have cooling fans on the batteries. That, along with the fact that there's high voltage warning stickers everywhere and many wreckers and emergency crews are very wary of hybrid vehicles, makes me start to question our current crop of hybrid vehicles quite a bit. Attached is a copy of what is pasted on the dash of several local wrecker company's vehicles with a list of potential hybrid vehicles.
 

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BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Nice comments Bob,
Our old Montero is getting older and starting to need repairs . I would love to try a Jetta but my old butt would never fit in one .:sad:
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Dargo, can you try that again?

Um, you know how that tech stuff is...:whistling:

There, I think I got it but managed to cut off the part where it says that there is a minimum of 300 volts with enough amps to seriously kill you.

I gotta figure out how to operate a Mac one of these days...:hammer:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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Nice comments Bob,
Our old Montero is getting older and starting to need repairs . I would love to try a Jetta but my old butt would never fit in one .:sad:

Well my "dream" diesel car would actually be an Audi A4, which is a slightly larger platform car. Unfortunately that is not YET imported into the US with a diesel engine. I've driven the diesel A4 and its more roomy than the Jetta by a reasonable margin, nicer interior too. If those ever get imported here you may want to try one of those??? Audi does import the A3, but it is built on the same frame size as the Jetta TDI and uses the same engine.

Really the other other option that I know of for larger sizes is going all the way up to the $55,000 Mercedes Benz E class diesel. I didn't think my daughter should learn how to drive in one of those!!!
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Well my "dream" diesel car would actually be an Audi A4, which is a slightly larger platform car. Unfortunately that is not YET imported into the US with a diesel engine. I've driven the diesel A4 and its more roomy than the Jetta by a reasonable margin, nicer interior too. If those ever get imported here you may want to try one of those??? Audi does import the A3, but it is built on the same frame size as the Jetta TDI and uses the same engine.

Really the other other option that I know of for larger sizes is going all the way up to the $55,000 Mercedes Benz E class diesel. I didn't think my daughter should learn how to drive in one of those!!!

I had a family member who had a Audi .It spent more time at the dealer than time he drove it . He finally dumped it the first year . Kinda scared me away from even looking at that brand.
The E class is a damn nice car . My father in law has one . Not sure it would be my best bet in The Idaho back country ,when we finally get everything moved .
That does bring up a question . Is your Jetta a "all wheel Drive"
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
My new Prius is averaging 49-52 overall mpg. On a recent run to S. Carolina we got 55.8 on the way down. Coming back only got about 49.8 but I was hammering hard on the highway back up 81 from N.Carolina. If I would drive the speed limit most likely about 52-53. As far as gravel roads, that is all we have around here. There are only 2 paved roads in our town so mine is run on gravel a lot. This new one gets about 3mpg better than the 2007 did. I personally do not like the new interior as much as the old one. It is still cheap to run over any of our other vehicles. Soon time to put it away for the winter once the snow starts flying. Then we run the suburban or the pickup. If Toyota would let you turn off the traction assist like their other vehicles it would probably do all right in light snow. Did I tell you how much I despise computer controls on vehicles!! The damn thing senses any wheel spin and locks out the drive totally till it corrects it. By then you have lost all momentum and are screwed. At least with the suburban you can bypass that by running low range in the transfer case. Oh for the days of locking in warn hubs, shifting the transfer case and GO!
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Bob, had the Touareg been offered with a diesel engine when you bought yours would you have gone with that option?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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My new Prius is averaging 49-52 overall mpg. On a recent run to S. Carolina we got 55.8 on the way down. Coming back only got about 49.8 but I was hammering hard on the highway. . .

Soon time to put it away for the winter once the snow starts flying. Then we run the suburban or the pickup. If Toyota would let you turn off the traction assist like their other vehicles it would probably do all right in light snow. . .
That sounds similar to what my neighbor says about mileage. I'm curious to see what I end up averaging over long term. Many TDI users report that milage increases a bit up to about 9 months and then settles in. The Jetta owners are reporting highway milage that seems to run from 50 to 60 mpg. The Prius will be better in the city than the Jetta could ever dream of being in terms of FUEL ECONOMY. But as I don't do a lot of city driving that is of far less concern to me. I'll actually be thrilled if I can get about 40mpg in my real world driving mix of rural and suburban driving.

As for the snow, well being on the south end of Lake Michigan we can get anything from NOTHING to a FOOT of snow in one evening . . . depending on the wind. So watching my neighbor slip slide around on the road every time we get a dusting was just another nail in the coffin.


Bob, had the Touareg been offered with a diesel engine when you bought yours would you have gone with that option?
YES!!! They did offer it the year before, and I think they came back with it a year or two after. It was the big 10 cylinder diesel with about 9-million :whistling: foot pounds of torque. That engine had so much power you could probably pull a house off its foundation.


One other factor that I have tucked in the dark recesses of my little mind is brewing bio-diesel at home. I'd love to at least experiment with it. Not something I could do with a gas or hybrid engine and in reality that was part of the reason I wanted the Jetta.
 

Durwood RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
I agree with u Bob on the Ford diesel. They could own the small truck market if they put it here in the Ranger and also a small car like the Focus. Did u check out the Fusion hybrid? It is bigger plus they say it drives like a real car and u can't tell when it switches from electric to gas motor. It is about 30 grand too. The only thing that would scare me is VWs reliability is very bad from what i have read, and they are expensive to maintain. I hope u have good luck with it. My dad had a mercury diesel (whatever the equivalent was to the ford small car then...lynx maybe ? ) back in early eighties i think it was. It got 56 mpg but man was it ever loud.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Bob, had the Touareg been offered with a diesel engine when you bought yours would you have gone with that option?

I wonder if VW has gotten all the problems worked out on the Touareg? Actuarial statistics on repairs for them are plain scary. We won't cover them. Consumer reports rank the Touareg pretty well at the bottom of the least reliable vehicles. If they get the problems ironed out, I'd consider looking at a used one at one of the dealer auctions. You can really, really buy them at a price that makes me consider taking a chance on one. They can't be that bad, can they? They sure look sharp and the one time I rode in one it seemed well built.
 

buckle97

New member
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I test drove a TDI Jetta back in 2004 when I was looking for a commuter car. I actually found one available new on a dealers lot and was strongly considering it. I ended up buying a used Taurus and in the end I was better off financially but I had a ho-hum car to drive.

I'll admit that I would probably buy a diesel Ranger if they sold them new in the US.
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
I wonder if VW has gotten all the problems worked out on the Touareg?

I'm not sure what year model it is, but a friends sister literally stole one from Carmax about three months ago. It looks and rides like new, although it has been in the shop three times already for mechanical issues.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
I'm not sure what year model it is, but a friends sister literally stole one from Carmax about three months ago. It looks and rides like new, although it has been in the shop three times already for mechanical issues.

Uh, eww. I know they can be had big time cheap, but I'm concerned about fixes for the failures. VW parts are NOT cheap nor are techs who work on them. If I could do the Sprocket Dance and work on them, I'd buy one for my daughter to drive. Your comment about it being in several times for mechanical issues tells me that my thought of getting one isn't one I can act on. Honestly, their residual value is similar, or lower, than a Kia. Unfortunately, the Kia vehicles seem to be on the upward swing reliability wise and the VW Tourareg isn't. Yeah, I know it sounds wrong, but even though they are a good buy, really, I'm not sure my daughter would be thrilled if I put her in a Kia.
 

Melensdad

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My Touareg has been virtually trouble free up until a couple weeks ago when the fuel pump went out. That was shockingly expensive to repair/replace. But honestly my Touareg has been one of the best vehicles I've ever owned, driving satisfaction has been excellent. I really enjoy driving it, and from the utility standpoint its been great for its size. Tows like a much bigger vehicle, with a 7700# capacity, and I've probably towed about 6200# to 6500# with it and not had issues. The cargo room is less than my wife's Volvo XC90, and it only seats 5, so it really fits the bill as a mid-size SUV but tows and carries loads like a full size SUV. Comfort and convenience and luxury of the Touareg rival any luxury car too.

Maybe I got a good one but I'm sold on the vehicle and would not only recommend them to others but would buy another one.
 

Melensdad

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QUICK UPDATE:

Got fuel for the first time late last evening. Had driven 442 miles and still had better than a quarter of a tank of diesel but figured I'd go to the station since I had time to kill while Melen was in her violin lesson. I put in 10.504 gallons. The trip computer calculated that I had a "range" of 140 miles left in the tank before I put those 10 gallons into the car.

So it appears, that in real world driving I can get nearly 600 miles out of a tank full of fuel. IF that proves to be true long term then I can say that this will be a love affair to remember. Now realize its not just about the economy, I really am loving driving this car, at least so far. Seats are great, luxury level is pretty good. Ride comfort is very good. Driving experience is very good with the right amount of road feel and response.

Averaging roughly 41mpg for my daily driving. That is a mix of suburban and rural driving. NONE of it on the highway.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
Bob, glad you finally came over to the dark side of TDi VWs. My 2001 Jetta TDi now has over 170k miles on it and is still a superb driving car. (The wife's TDi Beetle has over 100k, now.)

I have a spreadsheet with mileage computations since new on this car. I peaked with a high of 56 mpg and bottom spike of 38 mpg. The overall average has been 46.775 mpg. This will be more that you will get with your 2010, thanks to the EPA and thier imeasurable ignorance in rule making. I wouldn't doube you could average ~42 mpg. This is also why you will most likely never see those superb Ford diesels like in Europe. (Remember the diesel Liberty? Coulda, woulda, shoulda...)

You will note that fuel quality will make a big difference in mileage. Easily makes 10-15% difference in my TDi.

As far as maintenance issues: I replace the water-pump and timing belt every 100k (was 60k when new, last one at 120k was a new design), new battery twice, one set of glow plugs and a radio antenna.
 

Melensdad

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I'm looking forward to a trip on one of the interstates just to see what type of highway miles this thing can get. So far the only highway type driving I've done has been on 2 lane rural highways, but those typically only offer a couple miles of constant road speed before needing to turn, slow down for traffic, or speed up around a tractor pulling a hay/grain wagon.

I figure if I can get 38 to 40mpg in the suburban type driving I'm doing then the car should be able to easily beat the EPA rated 44mpg Highway rating.

My wife is still unsure about diesel. I've been telling her for a couple years that I wanted a diesel car and she didn't understand why. She drove it for the first time on Sunday afternoon and I think she was expecting it to sound like a bus, blow out black stinky smoke, and drive like a tractor. She was very pleasantly surprised.

I doubt this will be driven to much starting in mid-December and through February as that is "snow season" here so I'll probably switch back to the Touareg for its 4wd traction. Right now I've parked the Touareg so I can play with the Jetta and am having a lot of fun driving it around!
 

Lyndon

Bronze Member
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My 2001 Jetta TDI get's a consistant 48 to 50 MPG, has 175 K on it and still runs nice. I'm waiting to see the comparison between the New TDI all wheel drive wagon (Jetta or Passat) -Versus- the new Subaru Diesel wagon. Neither gets 50 MPG, but they will certainly be the most economical all wheel drives around. Mini Matt Tracks?

And now for something a bit different:
Better than Electric Car - 258 miles/gallon: IPO 2010 in Shanghai
This is a single seated car
From conception to production: 3 years and the company is headquartered in Hamburg ,Germany .
Will be selling for 4000 yuan, equivalent to US$600..
Gas tank capacity = 1.7 gallons
Speed = 62 - 74.6 Miles/hour
Fuel efficiency = 258 miles/gallon
Travel distance with a full tank = 404 miles
Pictures to come.
 

Lyndon

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
VW SINGLE SEAT​

This will beat all the low fuel consumption cars in the world!


NEW CAR- FOR US $600. ------- New Single Seat VW


If you could go to Shanghai for a vacation, buy two or more of these cars, one for your wife and one for yourself, and one for each of your kids, have them shipped to Canada and still spend less money than if you bought a car in Canada. Getting the car(s) into USA , still an ordeal.
This is not a toy, not a concept car. It is a newly developed single seat car in highly aerodynamic tear-shape road-proven real car. It is ready to be launched as a single-seater for sale in Shanghaiin 2010 for a mere RMB 4,000 (US$600)!
Interested? Wait till you learn that it will cruise at 100-120 Km/Hr with an unbelievable 0.99litre/100Km (258 miles/gallon)!
Impressed? Totally, after you have read all the details below about the hi-tech and space-age material input into this car!
The Most Economic Car in the World will be on sale next year
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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My 2001 Jetta TDI get's a consistant 48 to 50 MPG, has 175 K on it and still runs nice. . . .

Lyndon, I suspect that the pre-2009 TDI engines will get slightly better fuel economy than the 2009/2010 TDI engines as the newer engines deal with emissions in a different way than the older version.

The upside is that the new engines are 50 state compliant.

The downsides are that the new engines are more sensitive to bio-diesel and they also get very slightly less fuel economy because they send vaporized but un-burnt fuel into the exhaust to burn combust inside the exhaust system to burn out the particulates that accumulated in the system.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Bob,

I'm not liking VW's web site. Lots of graphics but little info. I was using the build function to spec one out for Mrs. Zoom but I don't have all night...
A couple questions you may know the answer to if I may.
It only showed a 6-speed manual tranny. Is there an auto tranny?
Is it available in AWD?
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Brian, the Jetta is not CURRENTLY available with AWD. There are plenty of rumors it will be offered with an AWD in the future. It is available with either manual or auto transmission. Mine has the automatic transmission, I believe it is a 6 speed auto. Sometimes referred to as a DSG transmission???
 
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