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WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404 & 1450

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

We have one coming back in that we sold 4-5 years ago still in perfect condition
New tracks and cleats

PM if interested, it won’t last long, needs nothing
 

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Helmsman38

Member Formerly Known As Kristi KT7
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

Call 530 321 8433 if your still looking for an IMP
 

rodre

Member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

Does anyone have the bed measurements of a 2 man Imp vs. Super Imp? I looked at the manuals on Safety One's web site but they don't give the bed dimensions. I can probably figure out the width but not the depth. Also, I am 6' tall, would I be able to lie down in the back of a full body Imp or Super Imp?
 

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

We have a super imp in the shop,and width is 62 wide by 72 long.that’s without the gas tank taking up space,and that would be outside dimensions.
It would be a little cramped at best 70” with special gas tank under the seat.
 

rodre

Member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

We have a super imp in the shop,and width is 62 wide by 72 long.that’s without the gas tank taking up space,and that would be outside dimensions.
It would be a little cramped at best 70” with special gas tank under the seat.

Wow, they look so much bigger in pictures, I guess there is no way I could lay down in a full body regular Imp. Looks like I am going to have to go with a 1450 and a Capri Camper in the bed. I think that just made my search harder and more expensive :bonk:
 

rodre

Member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

This is the West Coast insanity I speak of...

I had a good line on a 2 unit bundle deal from the East Coast, was thinking to buy them, redo both, and sell one to break even but shipping was $4k. If this goes on eBay for $25k I might have to rethink that. Problem now is that they were 1404's and now I am seriously thinking 1450.
 

rodre

Member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

How can I change the title of this thread to include the 1450? Do the mods have to do it?
 
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rodre

Member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

Looks like none of those Imps or other cats where the owners were asking $20+K for sold on eBay, hopefully this puts some reality into the market place. I think ifsomeone was going to drop $20+K into a machine they would start looking for something newer for which engine parts are readily available etc. Also at $20+k that excludes alot of hobbiests who have wives and college funds to contend with. I understand that for the people who restore them that is probably around what they have invested in them, not including their time, but I think it's like old boats and cars, you never tend to get out what you put into them. I do realize however that anything in this world is worth what one person will buy for and what the other will sell for and of course supply and demand.
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

Looks like none of those Imps or other cats where the owners were asking $20+K for sold on eBay, hopefully this puts some reality into the market place. I think ifsomeone was going to drop $20+K into a machine they would start looking for something newer for which engine parts are readily available etc. Also at $20+k that excludes alot of hobbiests who have wives and college funds to contend with. I understand that for the people who restore them that is probably around what they have invested in them, not including their time, but I think it's like old boats and cars, you never tend to get out what you put into them. I do realize however that anything in this world is worth what one person will buy for and what the other will sell for and of course supply and demand.

Without being disrespectful, my impression is you are focusing too much on price, and not enough on value. The lowest price machine may not be (it very likely isn't) the best value. Parts for snowcats of any brand can add up really fast, and with some manufacturers out of business, even finding decent used parts (at almost any price) can be "challenging" (a nicer way of saying a PITA).

Comparing snowcats for sale online is difficult. Many sellers don't know all that much about their machines and, intentional or not, misrepresent them. Others embellish the cr*p out of their descriptions, and it's up to you, the buyer, to determine the real condition. I think the natural inclination is to trust someone, but as Ronald Reagan famously said "Trust, but verify".

Dealing long distance makes things even tougher. If you're inexperienced, it's easy to make a very costly mistake. I've seen a fair number of Tuckers listed for sale on ebay at seemingly low prices. However upon carefully looking at the photos, these machines were in terrible shape and required many thousands of dollars in parts just to get them up to a reasonably functional standard. That cost would be far greater than buying a Tucker already in decent shape.

I wish you the best of luck in your search!

BTW, earlier in this thread you posted your frustration with JJ Kane Auctioneers. I'm a kindred spirit. Here were my thoughts on a JJ Kane auction that had several snowcats in it back in 2015:
http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=72033&highlight=jj+kane+auction+in+slc

And here's one of those snowcats...still for sale. At the auction all the ex-Rocky Mountain Power machines came on trailers. If my memory is right he would have paid $17K for the machine (with trailer) plus the buyer's premium (12%). I'm not positive, but I think sales tax as well.

https://www.ksl.com/classifieds/listing/50081022
 

The Sweet Wbj1

Active member
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

And here's one of those snowcats...still for sale. At the auction all the ex-Rocky Mountain Power machines came on trailers. If my memory is right he would have paid $17K for the machine (with trailer) plus the buyer's premium (12%). I'm not positive, but I think sales tax as well.

https://www.ksl.com/classifieds/listing/50081022

Blackfoot,

I may be mistaken, but isn't that your favorite re-seller in that area? The guy that usually uses MONSTER to describe everything? If so, then his story about accidentally buying all those machines is total BS!

EDIT: Sorry Rodre, didn't mean to hijack!
 

rodre

Member
All I can say is that after reading your eval of the snowcats at the JJ Kane Auction I am glad they didn't let me bid as it seems like I would have made a "purchased sight unseen" mistake, but then again they did go with trailer at around the $4k mark so the mistake may have been about $1K too high. My thought still stands that $20+K, even for a machine that has been completely redone is too high, especially for a 40+ year old machine. If I buy this for my business I would rather spend $40+ K on a newer machine. As a hobbiests I would rather spend 5-10k on one that needs some love and get to know the machine, which in my mind put the value of a redone machine in the $15-$20 k range depending on condition and if it comes with a trailer. These are just my thoughts, I don't mean to devalue anyone's property, and in reality want to hear other opinions. Feel free to attack me lol
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WTB: Thiokol IMP 1404

Blackfoot,

I may be mistaken, but isn't that your favorite re-seller in that area? The guy that usually uses MONSTER to describe everything? If so, then his story about accidentally buying all those machines is total BS!

EDIT: Sorry Rodre, didn't mean to hijack!

Actually, it's two different people.

The guy who describes virtually anything and everything he's selling as "MONSTER" (and the entire listing is in capital letters) identifies himself on ksl.com as "JEFF".

The fellow who bought up all the snowcats at the JJ Kane auction back in 2015 lists his name as "Rob" on ksl.com.

They also have different phone numbers.
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
All I can say is that after reading your eval of the snowcats at the JJ Kane Auction I am glad they didn't let me bid as it seems like I would have made a "purchased sight unseen" mistake, but then again they did go with trailer at around the $4k mark so the mistake may have been about $1K too high. My thought still stands that $20+K, even for a machine that has been completely redone is too high, especially for a 40+ year old machine. If I buy this for my business I would rather spend $40+ K on a newer machine. As a hobbiests I would rather spend 5-10k on one that needs some love and get to know the machine, which in my mind put the value of a redone machine in the $15-$20 k range depending on condition and if it comes with a trailer. These are just my thoughts, I don't mean to devalue anyone's property, and in reality want to hear other opinions. Feel free to attack me lol

Rodre, I'm not "attacking", but hopefully adding information so you're more informed. These prices are several years old, which means current prices are undoubtedly higher. My experience is solely with Tuckers, but I have no reason to believe Tucker is an outlier in their pricing.

In terms of the track system you have four rubber belts per track, and of course four tracks, so 16 total. Belt pricing (from Tucker, there are other sources) depends on track length. Belts for long track machines were $220.00 each.

The steel grousers last a long time on a machine that's not abused. But if the machine was run frequently on low snow/no snow conditions the grousers will wear prematurely. One new grouser was $170.00 and on a long track machine there are 124 of them. Admittedly, you'd never buy a whole set of new ones, but I mention the price for educational purposes.

The idler wheels (some call them bogie wheels) are $250.00 each and on a long track machine there are 20 of them. The rear-most idler wheel is made from a harder compound and it's called a "De-icer" wheel. Those are $350.00 each, and there are four.

If you have the damper wheel conversion you have 3 damper wheels per long track (2 on short and mid length tracks), so 12 and 8 total respectively. They run $160.00 each.

There are also drive sprockets, two per track, eight total, that are $250.00 each.

I could very easily picture a rubber tracked Tucker listed for say $8,000 with a lot of hours, that needed work on the tracks. Add up all new belts, say five idler wheels, three sprockets and eight grousers. Let's say you find some used grousers at $50 each. All those parts add up to $5,920, plus shipping, which would put the total over $6K.

Your $8,000 Tucker is now $14,000, and changing out all the belts is a significant amount of work: remember the 124 grousers? Each one is held on by two studs and six bolts...call it a thousand fasteners to be removed. I virtually guarantee you'll be fighting with a bunch of 'em, and you'll likely make the decision to buy all new bolts, washers and nuts. Since you've got all the idler wheels off, you decide to repack the wheel bearings and install new seals. Not all that expensive, but a bunch more time.

The $8K Tucker, with medium to high hours, (and especially if it was used as a groomer) probably has some poorly done mechanical repairs that might need to be addressed. It may also be in rather poor cosmetic condition, so perhaps some new seats and a paint job. Three thousand bucks there?

We're up to $17,000 and you've spent a chunk of your free time on this machine. You've got all new track belts, several new idler wheels and sprockets, but a bunch of the others may only have two seasons left before needing replacement.

Perhaps that "overpriced" $20K cream puff isn't such a bad deal after all...

I'm not a Thiokol/DMC/LMC guy, but from what I understand there's a world of difference between a standard track Thiokol Imp 1404 and a wide track DMC 1450. They made changes over the years that improved the machine's capability significantly. The point being you have to fair in comparing pricing on different machines.
 

rodre

Member
Thanks Blackfoot, I was just kidding about the "attacking", it was more aimed at the imp owners who were probably reading my comments and thinking "how dare you say my baby isn't worth $25k after all the blood sweat and tears I put into her", I know if I was on that side of the ownership spectrum I might be thinking that lol

I appreciate your comments, as an analyst this is exactly what I want to hear, does anyone have similar figures for thiokol machines?
 

GlacierSean

Member
SUPER Site Supporter
Hey Rodre- been following this thread, it's tough to know what snowcat you want from looking on the Internet. If you haven’t bought a cat before one of the snowcat events "McCall, Vail" I recommend that you go. It's a great opportunity to see a bunch of manufacturers and models of snowcats. You can check out the cats, hear them run, see who gets stuck, who breaks and talk to the owners. I really like my snowcat but would have made better choices had I gone to a snowcat gathering first. Good luck in your search.
 

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Thanks Blackfoot, I was just kidding about the "attacking", it was more aimed at the imp owners who were probably reading my comments and thinking "how dare you say my baby isn't worth $25k after all the blood sweat and tears I put into her", I know if I was on that side of the ownership spectrum I might be thinking that lol

I appreciate your comments, as an analyst this is exactly what I want to hear, does anyone have similar figures for thiokol machines?

Rodre,

Lots of good info from Blackfoot Tucker.

The most expensive items on the Thiokol 1404,1450

Tracks and differentials

Tracks a new set can set you back 10K complete belts,cleats,bolts, backing plates.

Now it’s rare you would need them complete,unless the machine had no tracks,but a little sweat equity gets you a long ways.

But some choose not to do that kind of work, track rebuilds are the least favorite item in our shops

Differential parts add up fast ring and pinions 1200-1500
Steering band reline 200-300 set
Internal components,
Internal pinions x6
Brake drums x2
Sun gear x2
Planet gears x6
Axle gears x2
Axles x2
Not to mention bushings,bearings
And sometimes cracked of broken carriers

Its not uncommon to have costs on a differential to average 3-5 thousand!

OC4 in the 1404 the transmission is part of the differential

OC12 in the 1450 has external auto transmission before differential
The automatic is far nicer to drive and the OC12 is a stronger differential

So when you see a machine with a new set of tracks its sometimes hard to comprehend it’s worth 5-10K more than one that the tracks are toast.

And if the differential has been maintained and cared for its value is real.

It pains some buyers that call us and ask what is going to cost to fix their differential on this machine they just bought? from some auction. And the tracks are bad also,but they got a good deal?
 
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Cidertom

Chionophile
GOLD Site Supporter
All same model cats cost the same. Some it's cash up front, others less up front but the difference in the long run. Once in a dozen blue moons you might stumble on a cat that was little used, carefully used and taken care of cheap. You might also win the lottery.

Also, as I learned the very hard way. Don't believe what you are told. Verify it for yourself, or treat it as a rumor.
 

rodre

Member
I like the idea of going to McCall and seeing things in person, as a big part of my problem in deciding between 1404 & 1450 is that I have never seen one in person to get a feel for the size etc so I know what would better fit my needs. I just don't know if I can make it as I am busy with work but I guess I should keep it in mind.

MNoutdoors, thanks for the insight on parts, would you say if a machine has it's original tracks on it and they are in good condition that it would be a good reflection of the condition of it's diff?
 

MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
I like the idea of going to McCall and seeing things in person, as a big part of my problem in deciding between 1404 & 1450 is that I have never seen one in person to get a feel for the size etc so I know what would better fit my needs. I just don't know if I can make it as I am busy with work but I guess I should keep it in mind.

MNoutdoors, thanks for the insight on parts, would you say if a machine has it's original tracks on it and they are in good condition that it would be a good reflection of the condition of it's diff?

I would not use that as reason to think that the differential was good.
It could have been run out of oil, sat a long time like at a government facility never checked ran without oil even just a few hours and it could be toast.
JMHO

PS: two things happen when you just assume something. You can make ass u me
 
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rodre

Member
Yes, I have seen that one, really nice machine but too far out my price range. Currently the Canadian dollar is only worth about $0.76 US so that ends up being around a $40K machine for me. Then I would have to get it shipped across the country and pay taxes on it at the border. Probably end up costing me $50k all said and done.
 
I'm far from being one of the experts on this forum, but I'll add my $0.25 anyway - I shadowed the forum for 2 - 3 years before making a purchase - I first bought a J5 because I needed an all purpose machine that could push around a bit of dirt, clear a bit of brush and do some winter trail grooming - the J5 does do a variety of jobs. but none of them as well as a machine designed for the job does and I found it lacking in grooming capability or some snow conditions - I'd had some experience with an elderly 2 track Snow-trac, and while it was a fun little machine, easy to haul, there was a lot of time involved in fixing things, although I admit that most of the things were easy to fix, although awkward to fix out on the trail - in heavy snow conditions it wasn't a good groomer and I would have to assume that it wouldn't be very good in steep terrain with heavy snow conditions either - I had the idea that a tucker would be the machine that would suit my needs the best, with it's easy to find domestic parts available at most wreckers at prices that wouldn't require a mortgage - the 4 tracks powered at all times would work well for grooming on my narrow twisty trails, and I assumed that a low hour machine that had been owned by a utility company would be well maintained - I found one that had been owned by a utility with 1344 hrs for what I think was a great price - it has required almost no repairs other than fixing a track that I broke by not paying attention to a frozen snowball stuck in the tracks - it's not a show piece, but it's in good condition and ready to go to work - my $0.25 anyway
 
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