If your car wasn't union made, it may be lacking in quality...

joec · Nov 21, 2011

thcri said:
It was my understanding that the union tried unionizing Toyota. The employees said no. I am sure if the majority wanted to unionize they would have as the laws favor unions right now.

Really and that is surprising just look where they built these plants. Have you ever wondered why the picked the places they did? Perhaps it the fact it is states that have a long history of being mostly non union, the south for example. You are beating a dead horse now as I said a year ago to you in another tread about unions they are dead today and will never come back.

squerly · Nov 21, 2011

This is an official Government Notice and must not be defaced by anyone.

lol

joec · Nov 21, 2011

Doc said:
I heard similar stories from guys working at the Marysville Ohio Honda plant. So, perhaps they are true. Assuming they are, so what? The company can run it as they see fit. It was 12+ years ago when I was in the area to hear about these workers and even then people were lining up for those jobs. They were an opportunity. On the job performers moved up. Non performers were let go. Imagine that.

I agree Doc but isn't a bit sad that today people that work for a living don't have any say in their working conditions as the employer gets to set all the rules. Kind of reminds me of say China or some other 3rd world nation were the employer regardless sets the rules be it compensation, work conditions, as we are now slaves to the employers instead of a two way street where both sides have a say in the rules. Perhaps someday some one will offer a job and now one will apply as they are tired of working for low wages, long hours in unsafe conditions for chump change so the owner can get more for himself.

thcri · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
Really and that is surprising just look where they built these plants. Have you ever wondered why the picked the places they did? Perhaps it the fact it is states that have a long history of being mostly non union, the south for example. You are beating a dead horse now as I said a year ago to you in another tread about unions they are dead today and will never come back.

So I am beating a dead horse just because I don't agree with you? The National Labor Relations Board is the rule here not the State. And if the union had the employees backing they could shut Toyota down pretty dam fast.

You have a few people that say they don't like it there but yet the majority is doing nothing? Just maybe they like it the way it is?

joec · Nov 21, 2011

thcri said:
So I am beating a dead horse just because I don't agree with you? The National Labor Relations Board is the rule here not the State. And if the union had the employees backing they could shut Toyota down pretty dam fast.

You have a few people that say they don't like it there but yet the majority is doing nothing? Just maybe they like it the way it is?

I'm actually agreeing with you thcri. Please go back and re read as I have said unions are dead no point in debating them regardless since they are such a small part of the piece of those that actually have jobs now or in the last 25 years or so. We now live in a non union world where to get a job you bow your head and be willing to kiss the ass of the fine person that hired you regardless. Read my tag line as that about sums it up.

squerly · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
I agree Doc but isn't a bit sad that today people that work for a living don't have any say in their working conditions as the employer gets to set all the rules. Kind of reminds me of say China or some other 3rd world nation were the employer regardless sets the rules be it compensation, work conditions, as we are now slaves to the employers instead of a two way street where both sides have a say in the rules.

OMG, this is nuts Joe. From the perspective of an employeer, I'm offering a job. You want to work here and I like your qualifications, then we have a deal. But I'm the guy paying the money and if you don't make the cut then it's your fault. Don't like the chair I bought for you to sit in? Then go somewhere else and work. Jeeze...

What the hell makes you think you have any say in what my business does? I'm paying you for christs sake, your there to do a job. If you don't like it that way then go start your own business.

thcri · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
We now live in a non union world where to get a job you bow your head and be willing to kiss the ass of the fine person that hired you regardless.

That is not always true. My employees appreciate their jobs and will do just about anything I ask of them. In fact I really don't have to ask them. Last Friday night I called a crew to install a furnace for a couple that had no heat. The installer recognized my caller ID and he said Yes I can help out before I even asked what I needed. I didn't need them Friday night as I had talked the customer into waiting until Saturday. The customer came to me after a union contractor refused to do the work until Monday. The union has tried many times to get a bunch of my employees to start the organization process and failed. My employees like what they have and don't want to change it.

joec · Nov 21, 2011

squerly said:
OMG, this is nuts Joe. From the perspective of an employeer, I'm offering a job. You want to work here and I like your qualifications, then we have a deal. But I'm the guy paying the money and if you don't make the cut then it's your fault. Don't like the chair I bought for you to sit in? Then go somewhere else and work. Jeeze...

What the hell makes you think you have any say in what my business does? I'm paying you for christs sake, your there to do a job. If you don't like it that way then go start your own business.

Think of it this way then, I as a worker am offering you my services to build or create something you can't do by yourself. Now I owe you a days work for a days pay, and at the end of a week you owe me a salary. Now I have a right to negotiate what I will sell my services to you for as you need them as bad as I need you. We are now on an equal playing field not me begging for a damned job from someone who considers me part of his problem instead of his profit killer. Since without workers you don't have the money to pay anyone making you part of the rest of us. The whole point is this is a two way street, you pay money for people to produce a product so you can pay them and by the same token have money to buy your product. Now you don't pay a fair wage with fair practices you will be out of business the same is true for a worker over charge for your services and no need for them. A balance as both sides need the other to survive.

squerly · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
Think of it this way then, I as a worker am offering you my services to build or create something you can't do by yourself. Now I owe you a days work for a days pay, and at the end of a week you owe me a salary. Now I have a right to negotiate what I will sell my services to you for as you need them as bad as I need you. We are now on an equal playing field not me begging for a damned job from someone who considers me part of his problem instead of his profit killer. Since without workers you don't have the money to pay anyone making you part of the rest of us.

If you're worth a damn then I'll treat you like family. If you're not, your gone. Forget this crap about you (an employee) coming into my "investment" and telling me what you want and how it's going to be. I'm they guy footing the bills, your the one wanting the job. Or did you forget that?

joec · Nov 21, 2011

squerly said:
If you're worth a damn then I'll treat you like family. If you're not, your gone. Forget this crap about you (an employee) coming into my "investment" and telling me what you want and how it's going to be. I'm they guy footing the bills, your the one wanting the job. Or did you forget that?

I tell you want squerly that attitude is why I work for my self now with no boss at all. I worked for wages for years and got tired of being told I owned them when it was them that owed me come every payday as I got paid after the work was done not before. Perhaps slavery is coming back in the form of indenture servitude. And yes you foot the bills and one is the cost of getting your crap done for you since you can't do it by yourself. I know when I need something done for me I have to negotiate a price to get it done but then a contractor you might consider just another employee until your plumbing backs up.

squerly · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
I tell you want squerly that attitude is why I work for my self now with no boss at all.

I see you made the right decision there Joe, and now you get to hire the people and pay them. And that being the case, my guess is that you want it done your way. As it should be...

joec · Nov 21, 2011

squerly said:
I see you made the right decision there Joe. And now you get to hire the people and pay them. And that being the case, my guess is that you want it done your way. As it should be...

Oh yes I want it done my way but they set their price not me. My choice is to shop for the best price from someone I can trust to do it my way for a fair price. Hence I have long established contractors that do work for me on a regular basis and mark their costs off as the price of doing business. I paid a guy just yesterday to come out and fix a gate that suddenly stopped working. Service call was $100 and he was here all of 10 minutes but that is what it costs as they are the only one within my area that can do the job.

squerly · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
Oh yes I want it done my way but they set their price not me. My choice is to shop for the best price from someone I can trust to do it my way for a fair price. Hence I have long established contractors that do work for me on a regular basis and mark their costs off as the price of doing business. I paid a guy just yesterday to come out and fix a gate that suddenly stopped working. Service call was $100 and he was here all of 10 minutes but that is what it costs as they are the only one within my area that can do the job.

Apples to oranges Joe... you're hireing subs and I'm talking about hiring permenant employees. But regardless, I'm going to go watch the Pats beat Kansas City... See ya.

joec · Nov 21, 2011

Well subs are the same as employees guy and eventually the day might come you figure that out. That is when it gets hard to fill jobs you need done.

FrancSevin · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
Simply go talk to anyone that has worked for Toyota here in Kentucky. Don't know about Nashville but have a few tenants here that have worked serveral times now for Toyota and hate it to the person just have no choice anymore. So you disagreed with me how about you proving your point for a change.

I suppose I couldhave suggested tht you could go talk to some ex Secret Service guys about the Clintons and the Obamas, but that isn't reasonable is it, so I didn't suggest it.

Just putting the shoe on your foot pal.

But Seriously, there ought to be some stats to backup your claim. Especialy if it is a onerous as you have made it our to be. I'll bet the unions have them.

In the end, I haven't heard any of that. In fact just the oppposite. Andstill it doesn't justify the claim of this thread title. I'm not buying crap just because it has a union label. And neither do most Americans,,,,,including union members.

I googled Toyota working conditions complaints and got about a hundred articles about car defects,. Not one about worker complaints.

If you google Toyata worker complaints you get a stream of them but no different than if you ask the same about Ford or GM.

Kane · Nov 21, 2011

joec said:
Think of it this way then, I as a worker am offering you my services to build or create something you can't do by yourself. Now I owe you a days work for a days pay, and at the end of a week you owe me a salary. Now I have a right to negotiate what I will sell my services to you for as you need them as bad as I need you. We are now on an equal playing field not me begging for a damned job from someone who considers me part of his problem instead of his profit killer. Since without workers you don't have the money to pay anyone making you part of the rest of us. The whole point is this is a two way street, you pay money for people to produce a product so you can pay them and by the same token have money to buy your product. Now you don't pay a fair wage with fair practices you will be out of business the same is true for a worker over charge for your services and no need for them. A balance as both sides need the other to survive.

Only in your dreams, joec.

This is what the OWS crowd doesn't understand. The auto industry does not build cars under the control of the state (well, except for GM) and if they did, then maybe the worker would have some say in the process.

This notion of fairly sharing in the profits is for social dreamers.

It is called supply and demand. The man or corporation that risks its capital to build a product establishes the demand for skilled labor. And if the labor pool is extensive (which it always is for most all manufacturing and construction processes) the worker does as told or he/she will be promptly replaced.

In the professional fields, where demand may outstrip supply of talent, the roles can be reversed. That's why smart kids go to college and get a degree that is marketable. These degrees are academically difficult to obtain. The kids that get the easy anthropology degrees are SOL. They go occupy Wall Street.

But for unschooled, common or skilled labor, you liberals can dream on that the employee will ever have a say in sharing the fruits of the capital put at risk by the employer.

And dream on that the unions have any real concern for the quality of the product it/they produce. Other than bargaining for working conditions and wages for the workmen, the only concern of the union is the collection of dues to sustain its own existence and to wield political power.

Unlike you, joec, who seems to have done just about every job in the world during your life :yum:

this is what I did for forty years: Observe and study the differences between merit shop workmen vs. union shop workmen. Give me a merit shop man any day of the week, because he works and produces and is paid based upon his merit, not based upon the protection he derives from some union.

And an ambitious merit shop man can make some awesome money. Because he has merit - a hard thing for some folks to understand.

.

joec · Nov 21, 2011

Kane said:
Only in your dreams, joec.

This is what the OWS crowd doesn't understand. The auto industry does not build cars under the control of the state (well, except for GM) and if they did, then maybe the worker would have some say in the process.

This notion of fairly sharing in the profits is for social dreamers.

It is called supply and demand. The man or corporation that risks its capital to build a product establishes the demand for skilled labor. And if the labor pool is extensive (which it always is for most all manufacturing and construction processes) the worker does as told or he/she will be promptly replaced.

In the professional fields, where demand may outstrip supply of talent, the roles can be reversed. That's why smart kids go to college and get a degree that is marketable. These degrees are academically difficult to obtain. The kids that get the easy anthropology degrees are SOL. They go occupy Wall Street.

But for unschooled, common or skilled labor, you liberals can dream on that the employee will ever have a say in sharing the fruits of the capital put at risk by the employer.

And dream on that the unions have any real concern for the quality of the product it they produce. Other than bargaining for working conditions and wages for the workmen, the only concern of the union is the collection of dues to sustain its own existence and to wield political power.

Unlike you, joec, who seems to have done just about every job in the world during your life this is what I did for forty years: Observe and study the differences between merit shop workmen vs. union shop workmen. Give me a merit shop man any day of the week, because he works and produces based upon his merit, not based upon the protection he derives from some union.

And an ambitious merit shop man can make some awesome money. Because he has merit - a hard thing for some folks to understand.

.

I left the union in 78 and as I said it was construction. Yes the quality of the work done then was important to both the union but the workers also. Merit shops I'm not familiar however it boils down to this. Right now their is an abundance of labor out there will to work for little just to survive but that too will change as it has in the past. When it does and it will if the world survives the next few years you may find the shoe is on the other foot then.

Oh and I have a number of different professions in my life from a draftsman in a ship yard to a sheet metal worker, karate instructor, security/courier, system analyst (after going back to collage in my late 40's), and now self storage business. I assume that is about average today for career changes

FrancSevin · Nov 21, 2011

To Your [point KANE, if alla worker brings to the table is a willingness to trade his time for some money he doesn't bring much of excellence to the table. Andhe can be easily replaced. In those shops a union is helpful for the conditions of employment but brings no "value" to the product or services.
In a true Trade union situation, where knowledge and skill are required toeven apply, the worker adds value. If the trade union provides that training service, from apprentice to master, then the Union brings value.

That is why trade unions tend to spend less time barganing for employment security and more time bargaing for pay packages.

IN the first case you get SEIU unions and on the other you get master electricians and carpenters.

Putting five lugbolts on a wheel,,,, any redneck can do. Following a broom accros a marble floored lobby, any fool can do. Why do those guys get high dollar jobs? Wire a three phase panel with spark arresting breakers and load the system in balance with the source power and the applied equipment loads. All within local codes.

That takes skill and worth every penny to get the union lable. I'll wager the nut jockey and the school janitor do not make a much less than the union electrician.

joec · Nov 21, 2011

FrancSevin said:
To Your [point KANE, if alla worker brings to the table is a willingness to trade his time for some money he doesn't bring much of excellence to the table. Andhe can be easily replaced. In those shops a union is helpful for the conditions of employment but brings no "value" to the product or services.
In a true Trade union situation, where knowledge and skill are required toeven apply, the worker adds value. If the trade union provides that training service, from apprentice to master, then the Union brings value.

That is why trade unions tend to spend less time barganing for employment security and more time bargaing for pay packages.

IN the first case you get SEIU unions and on the other you get master electricians and carpenters.

Putting five lugbolts on a wheel,,,, any redneck can do. Why do those guys get high dollar jobs? Wire a three phase panel with spark arresting breakers and load the system in balance with the source power and the applied equipment loads. All within local codes.

That takes skill and worth every penny to get the union lable.

Damn I don't believe it and you have it exactly. As I said real unions have been dead since the end of the 70's. We where trained to take a raw material and turn it in to something by hand. We didn't have security in the sense that they do today in that the union found you the job and it was up to you to keep it. The union through bargaining set the wages but we had no paid days off or vacations. We also paid our own retirement and health care costs though we did get a group rate due to the size of the union. I can't relate to other unions other than the now history Sheet Metal Workers Union that is now pretty much no longer exists.

Thanks though for the input.

Av8r3400 · Nov 22, 2011

Perspective statement: In what universe is unskilled assembly work worth more than the $15 per hour that the non-union auto assemblers pay?

These ridiculously high pay grades are the reason domestic manufacture has all gone overseas.

Unions serve no functional purpose other than extorting money from their ignorant rank and file and channeling it to the democRAT party.

Big Dog · Nov 22, 2011

thcri said:
Here is a good video of some of the stuff that I see happening a lot.

Video

Watching that my questions are ........... Why in the hell aren't the picketers workings and why are they spending so much in that kind of campaign?

joec said:
I agree Doc but isn't a bit sad that today people that work for a living don't have any say in their working conditions as the employer gets to set all the rules.

Because they're aren't any other safety guidelines and bennies to give out!

thcri · Nov 22, 2011

joec said:
Merit shops I'm not familiar however it boils down to this. Right now their is an abundance of labor out there will to work for little just to survive but that too will change as it has in the past. When it does and it will if the world survives the next few years you may find the shoe is on the other foot then.

Not true Joec, there is not an abundance of good workers out there. Sit at some of the coffee tables with owners and you will hear different. I could add more work to my business if I could fine more good workers. I can train sheet metal but finding good service people is tough and hard to train. In our area there is not an abundance except for the union people sitting on the bench. In the last year two union people have applied here and was given jobs only to have the union threaten them with stripping their pensions if they come and work for me. And don't tell me that is illegal of union as the union will agree with you but will also tell you "Watch Us" we have our ways.

Dargo · Nov 22, 2011

joec said:
Simply go talk to anyone that has worked for Toyota here in Kentucky. Don't know about Nashville but have a few tenants here that have worked serveral times now for Toyota and hate it to the person just have no choice anymore. So you disagreed with me how about you proving your point for a change.

Sorry Joe, but I just find that a bit hard to swallow since I have several relatives and a dozen friends who work for Toyota. What you typed is almost exactly what the UAW tried to say in our press. Fortunately, in our area, the press interviewed dozens of Toyota workers when they were leaving work at Toyota. Not one single person was unhappy with their job or pay. Their biggest worry was that somehow they would end up being unionized. Most expressed how terrible it would be to again search for a good job, implying that they'd quit before they would work for the UAW.

mak2 · Nov 22, 2011

I gotta ask. Why was it they would quit an open shop with UAW in the building, how would that be soooo terrible?

Melensdad · Nov 22, 2011

mak2 said:
I gotta ask. Why was it they would quit an open shop with UAW in the building, how would that be soooo terrible?

Indiana law requires that ALL employees of a specific class either be IN or OUT of the Union for most employment sectors (public employees are exempt, a couple other classes may also be exempt). But in auto, steel, warehousing, driving, trades, etc if the shop is Union then ALL the employees must join the union. Many workers have a serious dislike of the unions and forcing them to join may violate their personal code of ethics, would cause them to financially support political beliefs they oppose, etc.

mak2 · Nov 22, 2011

Last I heard you could not be required to join a union in the state of Indiana. The olny closed shop I ever worked at was in PA.

mak2 · Nov 22, 2011

By Indiana and federal law, no worker can be required to join a labor union as a condition of her employment. However, since the union representatives are the ones who negotiate the benefits and wages for the employees in collective bargaining agreements, all employees at that job can be required to pay union dues equal to the operating costs required for the union to function. Additional dues, such as monies collected for the sake of political donations and activism, cannot be required from employees by law. So an employee can choose to not be a union member, but some of his wages still go to the union to cover expenses. Those dues are less than what full union members pay in dues because the additional funds are used in ways that the nonmember legally does not have to fund.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6063958_indiana-union-labor-laws.html

Dargo · Nov 22, 2011

mak2 said:
I gotta ask. Why was it they would quit an open shop with UAW in the building, how would that be soooo terrible?

Because a union goes against everything that makes a non-union shop a good place to work and profitable. I have a brother in law who has 2 years left before he can retire and he's been a union flunkey since day one. He's been a 35 year laborer. He's laid off more than he works. However when he works, if he spills some dog food on the floor, he is not allowed to clean it up and keep working. He sits on his forklift and waits however long it takes for someone with the "proper" union job to come and clean up the small mess that would take a few minutes to clean up. The union would fire him if he cleaned up the mess because he would be 'preventing the union employee who is paid to clean up such messes from doing his job'. That BS!!! :yum:

If he needs the propane tank changed on his forklift, he's not allowed to take the 2 minutes needed to change the tank (and don't tell me it takes longer; I own several forklifts). The union simply eats away at company profits in the name of only having union people do specific jobs. THAT is why Whirlpool is no longer a US company. My father in law worked there his entire life, except when he was laid off or forced to go on strike. He quit school at 15 to work for his family, but he was still smart enough to do nearly any job in the plant and recognize that, no matter what, strikes cost him money. Regardless of what the union got by going on strike, in the long run, they lost money overall.

Fortunately, he was a millwright and was allowed to fix nearly anything that was broken. Still, he was frustrated because it was stupid to have him, at one of the higher pay scales, travel almost a half mile to the other end of the factory to grease a joint on a machine when the operator of the machine could have done so in 30 seconds and have been back to work. He predicted, and was adamant, that Whirlpool was either going to go under or the plant would move because of the union. He passed away from an aneurism on the job about 5 years before the plant uprooted and left. Once that shop became unionized, he knew it was a harbinger of death to that factory; and he was right.

Most people understand that if you cost an employer more money than you make them, something is wrong; especially when the employer is prevented from righting that wrong.

Galvatron · Nov 22, 2011

said it before and i will say it again...unions are just legalised criminals...dont like the terms of your job then have the balls to tell your boss yourself.... do not pay some gangster to do it for you :hammer:

joec · Nov 22, 2011

Florida is a right to work state so no closed shops there any more and hasn't been for a very long time. They didn't exist when I quit the sheet metal local years ago. And as I said about Toyota here it isn't so much about unions other than the fact if one gets seen talking to a Union they will be gone pretty quickly. Either way to me I've not worked as a sheet metal worker since late 78 nor have ever belonged to another union so it really doesn't matter much to me. Oh and the years I was in the union we had one stick that was going on when I started as an apprentice. The strike ended a week after I started. Three years later we got a $1 per hour raise with out any strike and I never saw another strike in 20 years. I started in Miami Florida and ended up leaving in Beaumont Texas.

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