The Super Dude is sick

johnday · May 22, 2006

Any diesel mechanics out there? Or anyone that knows 7.3 Strokers? Mine has developed a problem when the engine is cold, but disappears when warmed up. It's missing at all engine speeds. I was thinking water in the filter housing, and it may be that. But since it's temp related, I'm not sure. I have a SuperChips programmer installed, and can pull codes with it. Haven't put it on yet to check codes, but drained the filter housing, and didn't see any water. Hopefully tommorow afternoon I'll get the programmer on it, and see what I can pull out. Does anyone have the codes and what they mean if I get them. Oh yeah, the Service Engine light comes on when the engine is cold also. Out of desperation, I also checked the fuel cap, to make sure it was fully closed, it was. Any ideas are welcome. :tiphat:

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · May 22, 2006

What year is it? On my 99 I had a similar problem with the Glow Plug Relay. I replaced it twice and haven't had the problem since the last one (2-3 years ago).

Could also be the fuel pump under the driver's door - I had to replace that once too.

Both of these were similar to what you were describing except the fuel pump was still noticeable under acceleration when warm.

If yours is older then it's a different beast.

Pull the code - it's the first thing to do.

PB
PB

Av8r3400 · May 22, 2006

Good - A bad glow plug can be a simple solution to this problem. How many miles? Ever use ether? A bad controller will usually cause all of the plugs to not heat making very hard cold starting and rough cold running. One bad plug will *usually* not prevent starting, but will cause a 'cold miss' or rough running condition.

Bad - How many miles on the rig? Is there any oil consumption or blow-by? This may be a single cylinder beginning to die. Excessive cylinder-piston gap due to wear which when warm goes away.

Ugly - Is there any *white* smoke during these problems? Have you used the proper (anti-cavitating) coolant additives through the life of the motor? Cavitation erosion of the block and heads is a real problem with this design motor. Coolant leaking into a combustion chamber can cause similar problems to both the above scenarios. This is a fatal condition to the motor. Eventually leading to a catastrophic hydro-locked engine failure.

johnday · May 22, 2006

Guys, I've got 110K on the truck, always kept my DCA's up, no way with the ether. No oil consumption, blow by, or smoke. It's an early 2001.
Codes will be here tommorow afternoon, if I can really pull them.
I had my CPS replaced a while ago, but what I'm seeing, the failure is nothing like a CPS going. Pretty sure it's not glowplug problems, it starts right up with no smoke in this kind of weather. If I'm not mistaken, the glow plug timer will kick out long before engine even registers temp on the gauge. I can tell in the morning when the relay kicks out, because the lights and heater fan will pick up speed and intensity.
Seems I'm stabbing in the dark untill I pull the codes. More to come I'm sure!! :tiphat:

TOMLESCOEQUIP · May 22, 2006

Jon........did you buy fuel at a different out of the way place lately ? Add some powerservice to the tank at 2x what the bottle calls for & see if that clears it up. My 450 case dozer had the same symptoms as your truck & powerservice brought it right back around. I'd have never believed that a "fix in a bottle" would make it better, but it sure did for me. There's a lot of crud (algae & whatnot) in some fuel thats going around & you mighta' got some of it in your truck. :17875:

johnday · May 23, 2006

Hi Tom. I ran out of time last night, but the same thoughts were on my mind. I've got to be in Dearborn this morning, and plan on pouring over the truck this afternoon. It's most likely something simple, in other words, some electronic thing going to crap.
The last load of fuel came from upnorth, same place I always buy it up there. But that still doesn't mean it's not bad fuel. I'm wondering what the oil companies are doing, as in cheapening the blends to make more billions?
After I pull the codes [hopefully], I'll dump some PS in and get a another tankful. I'm also going to change the fuel filter, so I can eliminate any problem with that. More to come for sure. :tiphat:

HGM · May 23, 2006

johnday said:
Any diesel mechanics out there? Or anyone that knows 7.3 Strokers? Mine has developed a problem when the engine is cold, but disappears when warmed up. It's missing at all engine speeds. I was thinking water in the filter housing, and it may be that. But since it's temp related, I'm not sure. I have a SuperChips programmer installed, and can pull codes with it. Haven't put it on yet to check codes, but drained the filter housing, and didn't see any water. Hopefully tommorow afternoon I'll get the programmer on it, and see what I can pull out. Does anyone have the codes and what they mean if I get them. Oh yeah, the Service Engine light comes on when the engine is cold also. Out of desperation, I also checked the fuel cap, to make sure it was fully closed, it was. Any ideas are welcome.

John,
Glow plugs do sound logical.. Hopefully your code reader works and will steer you in ther right direction. I would also(after getting the codes) remove the program and see if that helps.. We have seen many "chips gone bad" and cause phantom issues.. When you get your codes(if any) post them and I(I'm sure others may too) can give you the definitions and pinpoint tests to check them. Also, make sure you use a Ford filter.. The aftermarket filter that comes with the cap(and has you throw the original away) causes other issues including shorting the PCM fuse.. BTW, you used an acronym (CSP?? I think is what you mentioned-forgot what it wasOK, got it Cam Possition Sensor, we call it CMP) that I wasnt familiar with, can you define?

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · May 23, 2006

HGM said:
Also, make sure you use a Ford filter.. The aftermarket filter that comes with the cap(and has you throw the original away) causes other issues including shorting the PCM fuse.

Are you talking about the Fuel Filter? (I did keep the cap from my old one). I've been using Purolator filters for a few years and haven't noticed anything but I change them more frequently then is required.

HGM · May 23, 2006

PBinWA said:
Are you talking about the Fuel Filter? (I did keep the cap from my old one). I've been using Purolator filters for a few years and haven't noticed anything but I change them more frequently then is required.

Yea, some of the aftermarket filters require you to change the cap too.. They are made to replace the cap and filter.. This gives the customer the impressionn he's getting more for his money.. But in the long run, he'll have to spring for much more.. You should be fine with the filter you're using if you still use your factory cap..

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · May 23, 2006

HGM said:
Yea, some of the aftermarket filters require you to change the cap too.. They are made to replace the cap and filter.. This gives the customer the impressionn he's getting more for his money.. But in the long run, he'll have to spring for much more.. You should be fine with the filter you're using if you still use your factory cap..

Nope I just kept the old cap on the shelf. The purolator filters come with a replacement cap. They seemed pretty much the same as the old filters. I'll stock up on some Ford filters for the future.

Thanks,

PB

HGM · May 23, 2006

PBinWA said:
Nope I just kept the old cap on the shelf. The purolator filters come with a replacement cap. They seemed pretty much the same as the old filters. I'll stock up on some Ford filters for the future.

Thanks,

PB

Yea, good choice.. We've had allot of them towed into dealers because the shut down, going down the road.. Turns out that the filter element in some cases may be too deep for the housing an will push down, shorting the heater element in the housing.. I ha d agood freind of mine get stranded 500mi from home with one of these(I didnt know he was using them).. Long story short, he kept blowing a fuse and needed to get off the highway, so naturally :pat:

he jumpet it with a paper clip :pat:

... Well, after a couple hundred dollars(remember he is my freind) I got him running again by repairing 3 wire harness'.. The worst of which was going to the fuse pannel under the dash(dash had to come out).. He would have been over the $1000 mark if he took it elsewhere.... Just a freindy warning.. :tiphat:

.. A deal is not always a deal.. I believe in factory air filters as well, but thats a different thread....

johnday · May 23, 2006

Ho kay; Just changed the fuel filter, with an OEM type ofcourse, dumped half a quart of power solve in, then I checked the codes. I pulled up a code P1316. The manual I have says it's Injector Circuit/IDM Codes Detected. Obviously it's something to do with the fuel injection, but what the crap is an IDM? Whatever it is, it sounds like a bunch of bucks. However, I've no choice, I need this truck running correctly ASAP! Does this have something to do with the fuel flow when the engine is cold? Please remember, the problem goes away when the truck has warmed up to normal operating temp. :tiphat:

And yes, CPS, is cam position sensor.

bczoom · May 23, 2006

Read this.

I think there may be more codes needed.
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-96025-Neverending problems F350

bczoom · May 23, 2006

Did you also get a P0683?

bczoom · May 23, 2006

OK John,

You got dual batteries in that truck?

If so, it sounds like you may have 1 bad battery.

It sounds like one battery runs the starter and such while the other runs the electronics.

Once that 2nd battery gets charged up, it runs fine.

bczoom · May 23, 2006

Re. my post about the battery problem, I found a place/guy that had a similar issue and it was the passenger side battery that was bad. They run in parallel but one was sucking the life out of the other.

http://www.socaps.com/vBulletin/showthread.php?t=2924

HGM · May 23, 2006

All good info... The code
FJ9 DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) P1316 INDICATES THAT CODES ARE STORED IN THE IDM
Possible causes:
Injector(s) or circuit(s)
Open or shorted IDM enable circuit
Open/short in EF circuit
Open/short in FDCS circuit
IDM relay
IDM powering circuits
IDM
PCM
Check for other codes.
Key on, engine off.
Perform KOEO On-Demand Self Test.
Are IDM or any other codes stored?

Yes GO to the appropriate pinpoint test.

No GO to FJ10 .

Were you able to get Key on engine off(on demand codes)? or just Continuous? It may not have given you a choice..

Either way any other codes are a good place to start, being its a runs rough concern, you may have a valve cover gasket-injector harness issue... Dont go probing with a test light(115v)...

I'd check the batteries first.

BTW, IDM is the Injector Driver Module... Yes, about $1000 new..

johnday · May 23, 2006

bczoom said:
OK John,

You got dual batteries in that truck?

If so, it sounds like you may have 1 bad battery.

It sounds like one battery runs the starter and such while the other runs the electronics.

Once that 2nd battery gets charged up, it runs fine.

Brian; I read those links you posted, then went and checked the batteries. I hadn't paid the attention to the passenger side one, and it looks nasty. I can see where it appears to have been charging, judging by the yellow deposits on the top of the case, if that isn't any indication, somebody speak up. These are the original batteries in the truck, and I've owned it since August of 2000. It's making sense to me. Looks like some new ons are in order. I had noticed a slight difference in how the engine was cranking, but didn't really think a lot about it. New batts tommorow morning. :tiphat:

HGM · May 23, 2006

I would definitly recomend that whether it fixes this problem or not(and it looks like it might)... Keep us posted, I've got all the factory info you need and these other guys have some good info too..

johnday · May 23, 2006

HGM said:
I would definitly recomend that whether it fixes this problem or not(and it looks like it might)... Keep us posted, I've got all the factory info you need and these other guys have some good info too..

Greg, I didn't see your post before my last one. The code was pulled with key on, engine off. P1316 was the only one. $1000? Thats worse than tractor and boat parts!!! :pat:

Will certainly keep all posted. Thanks guys. :tiphat:

HGM · May 23, 2006

The parts aint cheap, but luckily they dont break often... That 7.3L is nearly indestructible... Your reader may not give you the option of pulling memory codes, but both are retreived with the key on engine off(KOEO).. Thats actually the better of the tests because it tells you of any injector faults...

bczoom · May 24, 2006

OK JD, it's afternoon...

What's the status?

johnday · May 24, 2006

bczoom said:
OK JD, it's afternoon... What's the status?

Well I got two new batteries this morning, with no difference other than picking up another code, P0603, along with the one that has been there, P1316. I reprogrammed it back to stock settings, and no difference there either. Put about ten miles on it. I did get it warmed up, and again it straightened out. Let it cool off, and back to the rough running.

I did need new batts though, niether one was that great, but the passenger side one, was better than the other. I really don't want to take this to the dealer, megabucks ya know. :tiphat:

Doc · May 24, 2006

Darn John. I was hoping the batteries would fix her for ya. Back to the proverbial drawing board ......

HGM · May 24, 2006

Well,

What type of oil are you running? It sounds like your on top of the services, but could the oil be too thick? (The injectors are oil fired)

The IDM code you got refers to an intermitant circuit fault, you could try moving the harness around and tapping the IDM(on the drivers side inner fender, kinda looks like a PCM) and trying to make it happen.. The "when cold" part of your description has me doubting that though... I would also recomend(with the key off) unplugging the valve cover harness and inspecting them for burnt wires or odor.. This could give an intermitant missfire too.. Again, the code doesnt really match...Good luck, keep us posted and we'll see what we can do..

HGM · May 24, 2006

The book says if no intermitant faults are found:

FJ13 VERIFY DTC P1316 AND/OR P1670
Restore vehicle.
Clear DTCs.
Cycle key off, than start engine.
Road test vehicle.
Perform KOEO On-Demand Self Test and retrieve Continuous DTCs.

Was DTC P1316 and/or P1670 set in Continuous without any codes in KOEO On-Demand?

Yes
GO to FJ14 .

No
REPAIR KOEO On-Demand DTCs RESTORE vehicle. CLEAR DTCs and RETEST.

FJ14 ATTEMPT TO GENERATE IDM DTCS
Key off.
Disconnect one valve cover connector.
Start engine to generate IDM codes.

Perform KOEO Injector Electrical Self Test and KOEO On-Demand Self Test.
Are IDM codes retrieved?

Yes
REPLACE PCM, RESTORE vehicle. CLEAR DTCs and RETEST.

No
REPLACE IDM. RESTORE vehicle. CLEAR DTCs and RETEST.

So this may not help, but you may want to retest it with a valve cover unplugged as well.... (This is hard to do over the net

)

Something else I thought of.... Try unplugging the ICP(3wire sensor on L/H cyl head toward the front of the engine) while its running rough.. Let us know if that makes a difference..

johnday · May 24, 2006

Doc said:
Darn John. I was hoping the batteries would fix her for ya. Back to the proverbial drawing board ......

Man, I was too. I've been diddling with this thing all afternoon. :pat:

johnday · May 24, 2006

But, the good news is, I found the problem. :applause:

It appears to be the wiring harness for the passenger side injectors. I started it up, and started wiggling and pushing things. I pushed down on the connector on the passenger side, and it straightened right out. I had Jan watch the service engine light, it went out when I pushed on the wires again. So, the next ?, I can't see how to disconnect this connector.

I'm wondering if when the harness gets warmedup, it makes enough contact for things to work. At any rate, if I can get this thing disconnected, I may be able to fix it.

Greg, what was that connector on the front of the head for? It made no difference if it was connected or not. :tiphat:

HGM · May 24, 2006

Cool, I would Ohm the glow plugs while your at it. They have been known to go bad, drawing too much curent, and burn that plug(connector)..

You will need the under valve cover harness and valve cover gasket(dont fall over, they aint cheap either...115v going through them).. The dealer should have them in stock.. To disconnect the connector- from the top of the connector(looking down from the passenger side in this case) you should see a flat spot.. This flat spot can be depressed and the connector pulled away from you.

The ICP I mentioned controld the injector control pressure(ICP).. By disconnecting it, you fool the PCM into assuming the pressure is a stabil 725psi.. If it smooths out its probably the sensor.

johnday · May 24, 2006

Excellent!! Guess I'll go and make another investment in FOMOCO! :yum:

Looks like that valve cover is gonna be a bummer to pull. There's all kinds of stuff in the way. Looks like I've got to pull the outlet on the intercooler, then twist just right to get to the lower rear bolts. Sometimes it pays to be 4'10" and 120#. :yum:

The Super Dude is sick

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