Do you run a gas/alcohol mix in your vehicles?

REDDOGTWO said:

I do not know how a product that decreases the fuel mileage that much and uses so much fuel to produce can be viable.

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I'll agree with 300 on this one; if you saw vast fields of sugar cane rather than corn, we could make it work. Unfortunately, we just seem to be able to make more food out of corn than sugar cane, so that doesn't seem to be in the cards either. So, as you said, it isn't viable. It's a tax boondoggle for what was a good thought that simply wasn't actually thought through.

this arguement is getting stupid first off the oil companys are getting rebates for adding renewable products tpo their gas and diesel and i'm betting they are not being passed on to you all secondly it's here to stay like electronic engines i don't like electronic diesels but they are here i have to get used to it

So after your rant, got any pictures yet Dargo?

May cause trouble.....MAY....Not will cause trouble. Wonder why? Maybe it's beause they are covering their collective arses's? They can do that. Does it mean there will be trouble, I think not.

You and your band of hate preachers are getting to be old new here. It was fun pissing you off though, gotta kick out of that....

And I will vote how I see fit mind you sir.....Nope it won't be for ours current leader, either.

People filled with hate here, funny how it always seems to be the same small group of guys. I be there was a time here at FF that there was peace and people could express their thoughts before you guys came along. It's too bad.

Yup dds, this argument is geting stupid.......

Regards, Kirk

Kirk,
So,lt me get this straight, when someone points out the fallacies of your argument, and refuse to allow you to continue spewing false propaganda without calling you on it, this is a personal attack?
Or maybe a personal attack is accusing someone of deliberately lieing about their livelihood and experiences. I have accused you of following a line of propaganda, I have not called your claim to be a farmer a lie, yet you did that very thing to me.

You have continuously held the position that corn based ethanol is a good thing and a viable product.
My position is that it is not a viable product under the current system and is actually causing damage beyond what it does (debatable) to engines or forcing the price of fuel up because it is a costly additive.

Just my opinion here.................. as a mechanic E10 sucks........... as a mechanic E15 will suck worse.............. as a mechanic E85 sucks better than most hoovers............. It is a ploy if you do not believe that you are a tool. It makes farmers and oil companys lots of money and guess who else????????? ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am a mechanic!!!!!!!!! Makes the cost of new cars higher. Stainless steel fuel system parts to reduce corrosion. (you priced a fuel pump lately? check one for a flex fuel vehicle then same vehicle without flex fuel). And more crapola!!! I recommend to all my customers STAY AWAY FROM ETHANOL!!!!! Do not even bother arguing I will not reply Heck I prob will not even read this thread again. If you wanna drink the koolaid drink it I do not care.......... LOL this thread is FUNNNNNNNNNNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

300 H and H said:

So after your rant, got any pictures yet Dargo?

May cause trouble.....MAY....Not will cause trouble. Wonder why? Maybe it's beause they are covering their collective arses's? They can do that. Does it mean there will be trouble, I think not.

You and your band of hate preachers are getting to be old new here. It was fun pissing you off though, gotta kick out of that....

And I will vote how I see fit mind you sir.....Nope it won't be for ours current leader, either.

People filled with hate here, funny how it always seems to be the same small group of guys. I be there was a time here at FF that there was peace and people could express their thoughts before you guys came along. It's too bad.

Yup dds, this argument is geting stupid.......

Regards, Kirk

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I'll just be blunt; are you just plain stupid? If you're not, you sure are putting on a good act. You'd have to be a complete and total moron to not comprehend that ethanol is a very powerful solvent and is very corrosive. Since you are either stupid or pretend to be, I'll tell you what a powerful solvent does, it dissolves things. Methanol, CH3-CH2-OH, is a very powerful solvent. Again, just to be sure you are aware, engines, especially ones built before the last couple of years, were designed and built to run on gasoline; not a powerful solvent.

I'm not going to even humor you to let you know what manufacturers this administrator covers, but this is part of the memo I received that prompted this thread: Concerning the introduction of E15: Note that this fuel is ONLY approved for certain motor vehicle use on 2008 models and later. It is NOT for small engines of any year production. If we have any engine claims reported that the failure can be traced to the use of this fuel, (or any fuel containing ethanol) they WILL NOT be covered.

Sorry Pal, but I'm going with the entire industry and their manufacturers, not you.

Here is what the government says about flex fuel vehicles.

Flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) are designed to run on gasoline or a blend of up to 85% ethanol (E85). Except for a few engine and fuel system modifications, they are identical to gasoline-only models. FFVs experience no loss in performance when operating on E85. However, since ethanol contains less energy per volume than gasoline, FFVs typically get about 25-30% fewer miles per gallon when fueled with E85.1

I have an S-10 truck that has been nothing but trouble since I bought it 10 years ago. Had trouble with computers, injectors, other items. Last week the fuel pump went, and when the first purchased didn't fit, I finally realized that this is a flex fuel vehicle. This may not be the problem, but it will be the last flex fuel vehicle I will own. The pump cost about 1/3 more than a standard fuel pump, and they are deliberately not interchangeable.
Making gas out of food, and then claiming that the world does not have enough food makes no sense to me.

I could tell stories of people killed by ethanol contamination in aircraft fuel. Ethanol dissolves the resins in fiberglass. These dissolved resins then clog the passages in carburetors, stick rings, stick valves, etc, etc.

tsaw said:

loboloco is been one of the most rational thinking member here. We are lucky to read his posts. - (I feel lucky to do so) One thing that always happens on a forum.. is that one gets stubborn.. and will refuse to accept facts.

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This is the first time I've ever quoted my own post.
For the record: The stubborn one above is not loboloco.

this thread is starting remind me of a democrat vs. republican argument i once saw in a bar that being said get used to new fuels when you are talking older cars there was a fuel called leaded fuel when we did away with it it caused all kindsof problems and we adjusted now we will have to adjust to gasaholol i don't like ulsd in my 25 year old diesel i'm just learning to adjust and i don't here any complaining about what it's doing to every ones trucks even the ones intended for it.

dds,

You are spot on, just have to adapt.

The rest of the above is very funny for a guy who has 30 years of E10 use under his belt without troubles. Don for USLD diesel I and others have veen adding a quart of your favorite 2 stroke engine oil, TC 3 spec.. In my 6.0 liter ford it quiets the injectors down a bit. Replaces the sulfur as the lube, 128 to 1 mix or about a quart ot 30 gals or so.

Also the old no 267 Snow Trac I will be taking deliveryof soon will just have to learn to live on E10 in that old VW motor. I bet she purrs just fine on it, regardless of what they say here. I least I won't have to add any gasoline anti freeze.....

The rest of you small group of name calling extremists can take a hike. The law is the law and you, nor I will change anything. I suggest you learn to live and deal with what ever life presents you, and make the best of each situation. It is all that any of us can really do, and I guess I rather die a happy man than a disgruntled, angry, and I suspect alone....man.

Well, the good thing that has come of this, is at lease I know about the group that is here on this forum, that exist on several forums I have discovered....They don't like folks who don't "tow the line" with their thinking...or they get blasted with name calling and anger, and that just makes me chuckle a bit. Anyone who cares to can easily find information that simply and clearly refutes the assumptions in Pimmentel's research...I think I came acrsoss it on google entitled "debunking pimmentel's reasearch" as a matter of fact. Good place to start with reading the other side of the argument.....But that would be a bit like asking a muslim to read the bible wouldn't it?...But I guess you guys know it all aready don't you. So why bother with this...

At least I can say I have read a good bit about both sides of this agrument, and I clearly disagree with your opinions, and the Pimmentel reasearch all you clinger oner's cling to....UC Berkley no less, sespool of liberal thinkers that most of you guys would hate to be associated with regarding any other subject. But you are belivers of this rott.

E15 is a non issue as the retailer will not adopt it. No tank space, and no incentive or clear reason he should. As it stands, this is no clear win for the ethanol industry. I think it will be along time for it ever, if ever it is a retail success. I don't see the need for it truthfully either. Nor do I wish to see the price of corn this high. Speculators are driving this market, and I don't wish to hurt the end user of my products. Nobody needs to get hurt, by a market running wild with out side of Agriculture money.....E15 is a waste of time IMHO as well.....Just so you guys know..

Regards, Kirk

All of this business of trying to say that there are no problems with the E10, however I have not seen anything about about the decline in fuel mileage when using the product, yes I have done extensive research to find the answer, however it is either well hidden or non existent.

Can you please direct me to the information on differences on fuel economy as you seem to be quite an expert on the subject.

By the way, it is "toe the line" not "tow the line".

By the way I also farm but I am not subsidized by the government and that is why the fuel economy differences are so important to a poor dirt farmer.

REDDOGTWO said:

All of this business of trying to say that there are no problems with the E10, however I have not seen anything about about the decline in fuel mileage when using the product, yes I have done extensive research to find the answer, however it is either well hidden or non existent.

Can you please direct me to the information on differences on fuel economy as you seem to be quite an expert on the subject.

By the way, it is "toe the line" not "tow the line".

By the way I also farm but I am not subsidized by the government and that is why the fuel economy differences are so important to a poor dirt farmer.

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A gallon of gasoline contains 114 K btu vs 74 K for alcohol. So, for every gallon of alcohol used you lose a third of potential energy. The quote I cited above comes directly from the fed government, and their numbers state 30% +/- reduction in mileage for e 85.
E-85 cost averages approximately 20% less than E10 in most places. However, there is a big difference in the cost to the government. Corn for alcohol subsidy was nearly 10 billion dollars in 2009, the last year for which I can find records. Gasoline (including its alcohol content) is taxed at around 50 cents/gallon, depending on the state.

jimbo said:

A gallon of gasoline contains 114 K btu vs 74 K for alcohol. So, for every gallon of alcohol used you lose a third of potential energy. The quote I cited above comes directly from the fed government, and their numbers state 30% +/- reduction in mileage for e 85.
E-85 cost averages approximately 20% less than E10 in most places. However, there is a big difference in the cost to the government. Corn for alcohol subsidy was nearly 10 billion dollars in 2009, the last year for which I can find records. Gasoline (including its alcohol content) is taxed at around 50 cents/gallon, depending on the state.

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Thank you for the information. So based upon that information E10 would have 4 per cent less Btu's than regular gasoline and my five per cent reduction in gas mileage is accurate.

I still believe that it is a rip off considering the price difference, normally about five or six cents a gallon is about two per cent of the selling price which is not enough off to compensate one for the loss of mileage.

Your figures seem to be correct. Poor dirt farmers can do math too.

Yes, your math is correct as well. No one has ever refuted this...Ethanol will not win any milage contests. But it is also supposed to be some what cheaper, enough to offset the heat reduction. I also know many retailer are taking that cost difference for themselves......taking away the savings that offset the milage difference. Again no one has ever disputed these differences.

Add in the fact that is helps with air pollution (alot by the way) and helps with our trade deficit, not to mention leaves Islam out of the loop....and without our money.

Add to this it isn't contaminating our groundwater like MTBE was doing......

So reddog, what do you farm? Organic? forage crops?
Kirk

And once again - WHAT ABOUT THE FIBERGLASS TANKS MELTING WITH 10%???????????????????????????????????????

In aircraft, people die. In boats, could put people at serious risk, and at least one has resulted in fatalities. Not counting the ones where the tanks melted through, filled the bilge, the bilge pump turns on, and boom! The leaking boat, and many nearby destroyed.

I've asked once and so has av8r. Address it with your twisted logic; I can't wait.

What about stored fuel? Ever hear of white goo? Ever try to clean it out of a fuel system?

Address the countless vehicles with rubber fuel hoses and carburetor parts as well.

BTW - meat prices are going up even higher than ever, because we are using food as fuel.

Brilliant!

I make my living the hard way, growing and selling vegetables at the farmer's market.

REDDOGTWO,

Yes you are a farmer at risk to the weather, markets ect. Admirable, and I am sure alot of repeative and difficult work. High standards for human consumption as well. I really admire folks like you in my local area and support our local farmers market as well.

Kirk

As to fiberglass feul tanks...

How old of tanks are we talking here? Are the left full of fuel all of the time, for all of their operational lives? So, does anyone build fiberglass tanks today, and if so are the now E10 compatable?

Fiberglass would not seem to be an ideal material for a fuel tank unless it were lined with bladder of some sort. Over time E00 will act as a weak solvent to materials made decades ago.

Fuel lines, gaskets, ect. are now available for E 10 to E85 applications.

I am betting not a very big % of fuel tanks are made of this material, and perhaps they were overlooked based on that...

Regards, Kirk

Vinylester resins and polyester resins are both not 'proof' from ethanol. Both will be dissolved into "brown sticky stuff" (and other colors depending on the materials). These are the latest resins used in composites. These materials are often used in aircraft and marine uses. Polyethylene is often used in fuel tanks on automobiles. It has not been proven to be stable in the presence of higher concentrations of ethanol, either.

Not only will this "brown stick stuff" ruin the hard parts (valve guides, rings, bearings) in a reciprocating internal combustion engine, but they also clog the passages in carburetors and fuel injection systems.

I have seen this first hand. I have gone to a funeral because of it.


Ethanol is a boondoggle economically and chemically. To me, socially it is, too.

Places like brazil have up to a 2 year growing season on sugar cane if they want to. Which ups the tones per acre. Sugar beats are also used to make ethanol. Methanol is even worse than ethanol about destroying fuel system parts.