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If your car wasn't union made, it may be lacking in quality...

Kane

New member
To Your [point KANE, if alla worker brings to the table is a willingness to trade his time for some money he doesn't bring much of excellence to the table. Andhe can be easily replaced. In those shops a union is helpful for the conditions of employment but brings no "value" to the product or services.
In a true Trade union situation, where knowledge and skill are required toeven apply, the worker adds value. If the trade union provides that training service, from apprentice to master, then the Union brings value.

That is why trade unions tend to spend less time barganing for employment security and more time bargaing for pay packages.

IN the first case you get SEIU unions and on the other you get master electricians and carpenters.

Putting five lugbolts on a wheel,,,, any redneck can do. Following a broom accros a marble floored lobby, any fool can do. Why do those guys get high dollar jobs? Wire a three phase panel with spark arresting breakers and load the system in balance with the source power and the applied equipment loads. All within local codes.

That takes skill and worth every penny to get the union lable. I'll wager the nut jockey and the school janitor do not make a much less than the union electrician.

You are absolutely right on the money with regard to the autoworkers and the SEIU service trades. Overpaid and rife with political corruption.

But, like Dargo points out, you are way off in your assessment of the building "trade" unions. I somewhat question your authority to speak on the subject.

The master electrician you speak of would learned by his own ambition and would have long ago fled to a merit (open) shop contractor where he now has a company truck and a bonus.

The union contractor, particularly on a prevailing wage job, adds at least 15% to the cost of the labor potion of an estimate due to the inefficiencies of work rules and workman productivity. The lower tech work (general labor and rough carpentry) are the weeding out grounds for those that can truly make it in construction from those that need a softer field of work. And when have you ever heard of a union cabinet maker?

The work rules of the ironworkers, glaziers, millwrights and pipefitters is an expensive circus to behold, waiting for just the right jurisdiction over the work ... and in most cases an efficient composite crew is prohibited. Add break times, tool bin runs and travel time, the cost of work in the larger cities can almost double. Probably the only man bringing anything to the table is a good elevator mechanic.

No, give me an right-to-work state any day. Give me an able open shop man with ambition and that has learned his lesson with union BS and I'll pay him well, treat him like a valued employee and help him grow.

Been there. Done that.
 

FrancSevin

Proudly Deplorable
GOLD Site Supporter
You are absolutely right on the money with regard to the autoworkers and the SEIU service trades. Overpaid and rife with political corruption.

But, like Dargo points out, you are way off in your assessment of the building "trade" unions. I somewhat question your authority to speak on the subject.

The master electrician you speak of would learned by his own ambition and would have long ago fled to a merit (open) shop contractor where he now has a company truck and a bonus.

The union contractor, particularly on a prevailing wage job, adds at least 15% to the cost of the labor potion of an estimate due to the inefficiencies of work rules and workman productivity. The lower tech work (general labor and rough carpentry) are the weeding out grounds for those that can truly make it in construction from those that need a softer field of work. And when have you ever heard of a union cabinet maker?

The work rules of the ironworkers, glaziers, millwrights and pipefitters is an expensive circus to behold, waiting for just the right jurisdiction over the work ... and in most cases an efficient composite crew is prohibited. Add break times, tool bin runs and travel time, the cost of work in the larger cities can almost double. Probably the only man bringing anything to the table is a good elevator mechanic.

No, give me an right-to-work state any day. Give me an able open shop man with ambition and that has learned his lesson with union BS and I'll pay him well, treat him like a valued employee and help him grow.

Been there. Done that.

Building and fire inspector. 1974 to 1977 and again in 1986 to 1990.

Also projecgt manager for the construction of five factory buildings and the reconstruction of two post fire damage printing and packaging plants.

And when I wasn't employed, I made a living flipping houses.

Lowly credentials prhaps, but I worked the construction bussiness , in the trenches so to speak, from many sides.

While unions have lost there luster, I cannot agree that we must go either with, or without them. I just isn't that simple.

There are folks who will rip you off whether thay have a union cad or not. But when you see a developer build houses without unionlaobr,the number of code violations increases expotentialy. Not just corner cutting but out right negliigent practices. From studs not on center to insuffecient support. Two few fasteners and non complaiant materials.

Electricins who ignore grounding or can't tell black from white . Cicuts to bathrooms without GFI's or sometimes two GFI's on the same line.

Not to mention insufficient gauge wire.

The trades can make a project hell or easy, depending often on the General contractor's approach to them. I always found that respect goes a long way and if you know their art, they cannot BS you about it. If you extend a little respect for what they bring to the table, you willl usually get things done without much hassle.

When the building inspector and the trades find out they can tag team a general, his life is hell.

I was lucky in that I did not have to work in areas like NY city or even downtown Chicago where corruption is kinda expected and your project can be extorted. But in my humble experiences here in the real Heartland, things were easier using trade union folks who knew the stuff, and their place.

I still insist, my hat goes off to those who got an education before expecting a higher paycheck.. That is true whether thay are a tradesman, a teacher, an engineer, or an administrator. And for that, They get some respect.

But respect evaproates easily when a union rep shows up with a Bull Shit grievence. Happens far less often in right to work states, so on that we agree.

Unions should "compete" for their existance, without the blank madate often given by the government.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
I worked for a union shop running mills and lathes. Quit, went to work for a non union shop across town. Made 4.00 per hour more in the non union shop and was actually allowed to do my job. Also, I drove a truck and saw the difference between union and nonunion loading habits. I will never work for or with a union again.
 

joec

New member
GOLD Site Supporter
I worked for a union shop running mills and lathes. Quit, went to work for a non union shop across town. Made 4.00 per hour more in the non union shop and was actually allowed to do my job. Also, I drove a truck and saw the difference between union and nonunion loading habits. I will never work for or with a union again.

I'm actually with you on this lobo and I've gone one step better in that I'll never work for anyone again. :wink:
 
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