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Tucker Frame Damage from Water Intrusion

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
In a previous post in the Snowzilla thread I talked about water intrusion getting into the door frames on Tuckers through the holes in the rivets and then freezing. I included photos of one such frame section that Scott and I cut out and replaced - as the frozen water had distorted and split that tube. That square tube is 3/4” x 3/4” and has a wall thickness of 1/16”. Here’s that photo.

IMG_1489.jpg

I purchased a used Tucker earlier this fall and the main frame has several frame sections that have damage from water intrusion and subsequent freezing. Just like the door frame photo, in some of the locations the force was strong enough to split the tube. The main Tucker truss frame tuses 2” x 2” square tubing, and depending on location, has a wall thickness of either 1/8” or 3/16”. That is some serious power to split that tube!

I’m guessing that over 99% of the readers of this forum who are considering purchasing a snowcat are looking for a used one. In the vast majority of the cases, that usually involves a long-distance acquisition. It may mean a long drive to look at the machine, or in some cases it’s a sight-unseen purchase from 1,000s of miles away. If you’re considering a Tucker, I’d suggest you look at these pictures and then think about what would you do if you were considering a machine that had this issue, or had bought one and you discovered the damage when it showed up.

We’ve got other snowcat projects to do before we tackle this. However until then, potential Tucker purchasers should look at these photos, and consider the possible ramifications for their own situation. I've not seen this before, and I think it’s highly unusual, but it’s something to consider. The Latin phrase is appropriate: “Praemonitus, praemunitus”: forewarned is forearmed. (Don’t be fooled; I was a C student in Latin... and had to look that up.)

This is at the left rear of the machine, just above the rear fifth-wheel plate.

IMG_1716.jpg

These two vertical members attach to the bottom of the cab’s rear wall frame.

IMG_1717.jpg

Left front, just in front of the left front door.

IMG_1718.jpg

The same tube photographed from the back side.

IMG_1719.jpg

This is at the right rear of the cab. You can see the weatherstripping on the lower rear corner of the right rear door to the right of the photo. To the left of center that’s the bed’s frame. If you look through the hole you can see the crack on the other side. It’s cracked completely through. Talking with Jeff Godard at Tucker, he theorized this machines frame was subject to significant flexing over time, which weakened the frame to the point it broke.

IMG_1715.jpg

The materials involved in repairing this are not expensive. However, the amount of labor required to correctly repair these pieces is substantial, and the skill level necessary is substantial as well. Is this something you could handle personally, or with a buddy, or is it something you’d need to take to a professional? If the latter and done correctly, I’d guess the cost could easily be in the thousands; as-in multiple. You could probably try and straighten the distortion and vee out the cracks with a grinder. Then weld the cracks, use the grinder to clean up the welds, a little paint... and it looks a whole lot better. But if water got inside the tube to do that damage, how long was/is it in the tube, and how badly rusted on the inside is the tube? Put differently, you know the tube has suffered damage, but you can’t see the inside of the tube, or otherwise verify its structural integrity. So yes, it’s a ton more work, but the right way to fix this is to cut out the damaged tube sections and weld in new ones.

Mostly to satisfy his curiosity, Scott drilled a hole in two of the damaged tubes to see if there was still water inside. Here’s a photo of one side (the other was virtually identical). Yup…water and rust flowed out the hole.

IMG_1825.jpg

We’ve discussed our strategy to repair the damaged frame. To get sufficient access, the bed has to come off. What’s frustrating and annoying about this is the way Tucker builds the machines, complicates this - needlessly in our opinion. If you look at a pickup truck or a box truck, etc you’ll see the bed, or box, is attached to the truck’s frame with bolts. You want to remove it; you unbolt it and lift it off. Tucker however welds the bed frame to the machine’s truss frame, then they install the expanded metal floor and weld that in place. When two pieces are welded together and you want to separate them, you have to cut them apart. Depending on the specific circumstances, that often means if you try and save both pieces - you end up damaging both. So it can be a better plan to essentially sacrifice one part to save the other. We’re going to cut the frame behind the cab on both sides and in the back to remove the bed. Then we have to cut the expanded metal to gain access to the welds on top of the frame. Then those welds have to be cut and once we have everything separated we’ll have to go back and repair the damage. Several hours wasted because Tucker couldn’t have simply bolted the bed to the frame. (Note: we faced this before with Thundercat. We fabricated a completely new (and larger) bed and we welded tabs with holes in them on the bed’s frame and the Tucker frame for six 1/2”-20 Grade 8 bolts. That’s more than adequate strength to hold the bed to the frame.)

Unfortunately the damage is not confined to the truss frame members. On a four door Tucker, there’s a center structural member and roof support that's between the two doors on each side. Essentially from front to back you have the front door’s rear door post, the center structural member and the the rear door’s front door post. These three pieces of steel tube are welded together and there’s an outer sheet metal skin that wraps around the three and is skip welded to the two door posts.

Here are some pics of this damage. This is the right side.

IMG_1732.jpg

And the left side.

IMG_1734.jpg

In this case to gain access, the roof has to come off. Not particularly difficult, just a whole bunch of rivets to drill out. As I mentioned earlier, we have a bunch of other snowcat projects ahead of this. When we get around to it, I’ll resurrect this thread and show how we did it.
 

Cidertom

Chionophile
GOLD Site Supporter
For what it's worth: This issue is not confined to the Tucker varietal of snow cat. I have the issue in the roof frame of the st-4. And have information as to some imps with the same affliction.

A personal note: I have spent a great deal of my life keeping water out of antenna, feedlines,etc. You can't tell water where to go, you can only make it easier to go somewhere else. Or in many cases, allow it to escape once it's there, instead of trapping it for all eternity, or the first deep freeze, whichever is first.

CT
 
I've seen it too on Thiokols and Pisten Bullys. Same basic reason, holes drilled in the frame without providing drain holes for the inevitable water intrusion. Good info Blackfoot!
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
For all Tucker owners, a close examination of their machines, fallowed with the trusty cordless drill, and a 3/16" bit to strategically relieve the water traps might be in order...

Very worthwhile information to pass along. Thanks! :tiphat:

Regards, Kirk
 

sno-drifter

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
For all Tucker owners, a close examination of their machines, fallowed with the trusty cordless drill, and a 3/16" bit to strategically relieve the water traps might be in order...

Very worthwhile information to pass along. Thanks! :tiphat:

Regards, Kirk

Ya, what Kirk says. And Tom too
 

HankScorpio

Member
Good pics of the frame issues. Don't forget about the track carriers. I had to redo mine last year as a result of extreme rust. I couldn't get the track adjusters to move on my 1544. Tried heat and built a screw press to try and push them apart, no luck. While doing this I found rust from water intrusion in several places. The end result being new adjusters all the way around and some repair to the rest of the track carriers including plating the bottom front to back. This repair work would have cost a fortune if I was not able to do it in house. Take your time buying a used machine, if you look hard enough you will find something that needs attention.
 

Cidertom

Chionophile
GOLD Site Supporter
Thought I would throw some related information into the discussion.

It doesn't even take rivet holes to get water trapped. One issue I fight in my work is called diurnal pumping. It is where you have a semi-sealed chamber. This could be an o-ring, an incomplete weld, or anything that is /almost/ a true pressure seal.

Usually happens on weather exposed items. and the following cycle happens:

Sun (or other heat source such as engine) heats chamber causing the gas inside to expand which forces its way out to equalize the pressure.

Heat source leaves (sun goes down).

The chamber cools slower than the surrounding air. Delaying a drop in pressure.

By the time the chamber drops temp which causes a decrease in pressure, the humidity in the outside air is rising.

Chamber sucks in moisture laden air.

Chamber keeps cooling to the point the RH in the chamber hits 100%

Moisture condenses out as liquid water.

Next cycle the heat expands air faster than the water can be re-vaporized and the cycle repeats. But yesterdays water doesn't leave...

I've seen waveguides and equipment boxes fill with water from this cause alone. That is the reason we normally pressurize them with dry nitrogen or air. Or we put a desiccant unit where the pressure changes happen through a drying medium.

They have o-rings and such, but they only limit, not prevent it. The larger the chamber the worse the problem.
 

sno-drifter

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Some places a weep hole will not work. Here is what two pistons in the Hemi from Rock & Roll looked like. The sledge hammer method was used for removal. These two pistons were replaced. The other six are in fine shape and R&R rolls and rocks today. Fifty five years of sitting with valves open to these two cylinders and condensation were the culprits.

Before and after.
 

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MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Thought I would throw some related information into the discussion.

It doesn't even take rivet holes to get water trapped. One issue I fight in my work is called diurnal pumping. It is where you have a semi-sealed chamber. This could be an o-ring, an incomplete weld, or anything that is /almost/ a true pressure seal.

Usually happens on weather exposed items. and the following cycle happens:

Sun (or other heat source such as engine) heats chamber causing the gas inside to expand which forces its way out to equalize the pressure.

Heat source leaves (sun goes down).

The chamber cools slower than the surrounding air. Delaying a drop in pressure.

By the time the chamber drops temp which causes a decrease in pressure, the humidity in the outside air is rising.

Chamber sucks in moisture laden air.

Chamber keeps cooling to the point the RH in the chamber hits 100%

Moisture condenses out as liquid water.

Next cycle the heat expands air faster than the water can be re-vaporized and the cycle repeats. But yesterdays water doesn't leave...

I've seen waveguides and equipment boxes fill with water from this cause alone. That is the reason we normally pressurize them with dry nitrogen or air. Or we put a desiccant unit where the pressure changes happen through a drying
medium.

They have o-rings and such, but they only limit, not prevent it. The larger the chamber the worse the problem.


This also is the same process that lets water accumulate in differentials, I have noticed it to be worse on the Bombardier differentials than the others but will still accumulate in those also. If left unchecked it can and will cause damage to the differential. Worst case scenario is when it get so much water in the differential that the ring Gear will freeze in and when the machine tries to move
It will bust the teeth on the pinion Gear off. The tracks being frozen into the ground does not help either. The freeze thaw cycles of early spring are the worst.

You can help reduce the water intake by placing a small desiccant inline filter (inline airline painting filter ) on the breather on the differential and on some larger units we have constructed pvc pipes with desiccant inside and placed a hose to the breather
 
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MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Another point to consider on tubing of a machine that has gone underwater is most likely some will be introduced inside and if left to freeze could cause severe
Swelling and cracking
 
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