More diesels coming soon?

AndyM · Jan 12, 2006

Some of my best small cars I've owned were diesels. I'm excited at the prospect of being able to purchase a new one someday using the latest technology! I know that VW sells a very small car in other countries with a 3 cylinder diesel engine... sure would be nice to get something like that here!

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060112/auto_show_diesel.html?.v=3

Some quick highlights from the article above--

DaimlerChrysler says BLUETEC is so clean it can meet emissions regulations in all 50 states, including the five states where diesels aren't currently sold because they can't meet emissions standards: California, Massachusetts, Maine, New York and Vermont.
Zetsche said DaimlerChrysler plans to add BLUETEC technology to other brands in its lineup, including Chrysler and Jeep.

Ford Motor Co. is displaying the Ford Reflex concept at the auto show, a sports car with a hybrid-diesel engine it says can get 65 miles per gallon.

Honda Motor Co., which already sells diesels in Europe, said it's monitoring U.S. demand, while Nissan Motor Co. President and CEO Carlos Ghosn said the company is working on diesels and will be ready if consumers demand them.

Melensdad · Jan 12, 2006

I'd love to see them here too.

But it is unlikely. In most of Europe the gasoline is heavily taxed, their diesel is taxed at a lower rate, giving a large incentive to buy diesel, large enough to overcome the price gap created by the higher initial purchase cost of diesel vehicles. Here in the US, diesel is typically harder to find and more expensive. Add those 2 factors to the added cost of the diesel vehicles and it is no wonder their demand is lower.

DaveNay · Jan 12, 2006

B_Skurka said:
I'd love to see them here too.

But it is unlikely. In most of Europe the gasoline is heavily taxed, their diesel is taxed at a lower rate, giving a large incentive to buy diesel, large enough to overcome the price gap created by the higher initial purchase cost of diesel vehicles. Here in the US, diesel is typically harder to find and more expensive. Add those 2 factors to the added cost of the diesel vehicles and it is no wonder their demand is lower.

Chicken....meet egg.

AndyM · Jan 12, 2006

B_Skurka said:
I'd love to see them here too.

But it is unlikely. In most of Europe the gasoline is heavily taxed, their diesel is taxed at a lower rate... Here in the US, diesel is typically harder to find and more expensive. Add those 2 factors to the added cost of the diesel vehicles and it is no wonder their demand is lower.

In addition, most people in this country think of a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta 88 when they hear the word "diesel". That's a lot of bad press to overcome, even with today's technology.

Doc · Jan 12, 2006

AndyM said:
In addition, most people in this country think of a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta 88 when they hear the word "diesel". That's a lot of bad press to overcome, even with today's technology.

Bad press and bad memories. The poor suckers that got stuck with those got the king lemon of all lemons.

Kubota King · Jan 12, 2006

how so? Someone inform me here please....i didnt know they even make a deisel for those old's. What went wrong with them?

DaveNay · Jan 12, 2006

Kubota King said:
how so? Someone inform me here please....i didnt know they even make a deisel for those old's. What went wrong with them?

I believe these were the gasoline engines that were "tuned" to allow them to "run" on diesel.

California · Jan 12, 2006

Kubota King said:
how so? Someone inform me here please....i didnt know they even make a deisel for those old's. What went wrong with them?

Everything.

AndyM · Jan 12, 2006

Kubota King said:
how so? Someone inform me here please....i didnt know they even make a deisel for those old's. What went wrong with them?

Nearly all of the mid and full size GM vehicles in the late 70's and early 80's had diesel engine options, even Cadillac. GM used the same block and other components from their gasoline counterparts, which were not equipped for the high compression of a diesel engine. Many of these engines died early in their lives, and very few survive 25 years later. The reputation of GM diesels simply carried over to ALL diesels in the eyes of most Americans, and that is the main reason automakers aren't able to market passenger car diesels in the U.S today.

Incidentally, GM wasn't the only company to offer diesels in passenger cars during that time period. All automakers sold diesels of one kind or another, but GM's massive diesel problems ruined sales across the board.

Personally, I've had three vehicles built during the early 80's diesel phase-- a Datsun diesel pickup truck, a Ford Tempo diesel, and a Chevrolet Chevette diesel (with a 4 cylinder Isuzu engine).

Just for fun, here's a few interesting diesels on Ebay right now...

1978 Cadillac Seville diesel
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1978-CADILLAC-SEVILLE-DIESEL-76K-ORIGINAL-MILES-CA-CAR_W0QQitemZ4603420458QQcategoryZ6151QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

1981 Olds Cutlass Supreme diesel
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1981-Oldsmobile-Cutlass-Supreme-Diesel_W0QQitemZ4602348546QQcategoryZ6405QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

1984 Ford Escort diesel
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1984-Ford-Escort-Diesel-5-speed-very-very-rare_W0QQitemZ4603419154QQcategoryZ6229QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Most diesels disapeared from new car dealerships in the U.S. around 1985 or 1986, with the exception of Volkswagen and Mercedes-Benz. The 4 cylinder Jeep Liberty seems to be a step in the right direction towards availabilty on U.S. brands again.

nixon · Jan 13, 2006

BIMP

Junkman · Jan 13, 2006

AndyM said:
In addition, most people in this country think of a 1982 Oldsmobile Delta 88 when they hear the word "diesel". That's a lot of bad press to overcome, even with today's technology.

I have a friend that is still driving his Oldsmobile diesel. GM finally figured out what was wrong with the engines and made a final fix that worked. Unfortunately, it was too little too late. There was a machining mistake that was the root problem. It was very minor, but still fatal to the engines.

Junkman · Jan 13, 2006

nixon said:
BIMP

Kubota King · Jan 13, 2006

thanks for the knowledge guys...very intersting! I gotta say the 78' caddy on ebay is very impressive, if it were closer I might consider it.

Junkman · Jan 13, 2006

Kubota King said:
............... if it were closer I might consider it.

If I could buy a 1978 Cadillac in Alaska and have it shipped to CT, there is no car that is too far away if you really want it..... Junk.....

California · Jan 13, 2006

Junkman said:
There was a machining mistake that was the root problem. It was very minor, but still fatal to the engines.

I read somewhere that remedying that design flaw provided a reliable engine. Is it reasonable to apply that patch to a car that is in good condition and hasn't failed yet, like the California Cadillac on ebay?

Kubota King · Jan 13, 2006

Junkman said:
If I could buy a 1978 Cadillac in Alaska and have it shipped to CT, there is no car that is too far away if you really want it..... Junk.....

Yeah, I suppose your right but this car isnt appealing enought me to go threw that much trouble.

Junkman · Jan 13, 2006

California said:
I read somewhere that remedying that design flaw provided a reliable engine. Is it reasonable to apply that patch to a car that is in good condition and hasn't failed yet, like the California Cadillac on ebay?

The short answer is yes, if it hasn't already been corrected. If you buy the car let me know and I will find out all the details. I know that his runs great now, but he had a hard time finding the correct parts from junk engines. He didn't want to invest in new... Junk....

California · Jan 13, 2006

Thanks for the answer. Occasionally a GM diesel pickup shows up here that was barn-stored like that Cadillac.

Maybe a seldom-used Camper Special or something.

I always wondered if it would be worthwhile to jump on a deal like that and apply the rumored fix. It sounds like the repair really does solve the problem.

AndyM · Jan 13, 2006

California said:
Thanks for the answer. Occasionally a GM diesel pickup shows up here that was barn-stored like that Cadillac.

Maybe a seldom-used Camper Special or something.

I always wondered if it would be worthwhile to jump on a deal like that and apply the rumored fix. It sounds like the repair really does solve the problem.

GM had a lot better luck with their 6.2L and 6.5L diesels in their trucks in the 80's. Junkman should be able to fill in the details with those engines.

Their BIGGEST problem was when they turned their 5.7L engine (the venerable 350) into a diesel, although they had issues with their diesel V-6 also.

Av8r3400 · Jan 13, 2006

The 350 diesel conversion was from an Oldsmobile block, not the Chevrolet block. These diesels can be re-worked back to a gas motor and bored up to 500 cid for "off road" use.

The 6.2 and later re-work to 6.5 Chevrolet diesels were made by Detroit Diesel before Daimler Chrysler bought them out. (That's why the new Chevy diesel is an Isuzu design/build) The 6.2 first appeared in '82, but the 350 diesel was used in 80 and 81 in GM trucks. I *think* the 6.5 appeared in '93.

AndyM · Jan 13, 2006

Av8r_2230 said:
The 350 diesel conversion was from an Oldsmobile block, not the Chevrolet block.

It totally slipped my mind that each division had their own engines, and even transmissions, at one time.

Now every division share the same engine and same bodies, and they go 5 or 6 years without major revisions. I can't grasp that even though GM is losing money now, how did they ever MAKE money with all of the different engine and transmission combinations, body styles, and yearly revisions?

California · Jan 13, 2006

AndyM said:
how did they ever MAKE money with all of the different engine and transmission combinations, body styles, and yearly revisions?

I wonder if the posted profits in those years were phantom profits that didn't include the full cost of pension obligations incurred at the time. This can be the result when boosting the stock price becomes the only criteria for rewarding managers.

GM's present pension crisis wasn't created overnight.

Junkman · Jan 13, 2006

It isn't the pensions so much as the health care costs that are killing the auto giant. They can't get the health care costs under control and the unions are pushing for more. There is only so much that any business can handle before the cost of labor and the benifits outstrip the ability to make a profit. That is why Walmart is so profitable. They don't offer benefits to all employees and they keep that cost under control.

Md. Wal-Mart Told to Boost Health Care

buy_25 · Jan 14, 2006

that is great more diesels but why do I want to pay more for fuel???

buy_25 · Jan 14, 2006

Junkman said:
It isn't the pensions so much as the health care costs that are killing the auto giant. They can't get the health care costs under control and the unions are pushing for more. There is only so much that any business can handle before the cost of labor and the benifits outstrip the ability to make a profit. That is why Walmart is so profitable. They don't offer benefits to all employees and they keep that cost under control.

Md. Wal-Mart Told to Boost Health Care

I would say unions, labor, health care, pensions etc. I would not worry, I am sure the CEO's etc are looking in outsoucing there jobs to make the stock go up 30%.

Walfart from what I read does not even buy the products.The manufacture pays for it until it sells.

Junkman · Jan 14, 2006

buy_25 said:
that is great more diesels but why do I want to pay more for fuel???

Possibly because the better mileage of the diesel will off set the additional cost of the fuel and the per mile cost will go down??????

buy_25 · Jan 14, 2006

Junkman said:
Possibly because the better mileage of the diesel will off set the additional cost of the fuel and the per mile cost will go down??????

Depends on what cars or trucks it is. So far diesels are more upfront and cost more to fix. Gas is cheaper to fuel and fix.

I know the money I saved on going to gas from diesel is paying for my Es300. Based on everyone needs diesel now, prices will go up higher since demend will be higher. People do not like diesel prices now.....

AndyM · Jan 14, 2006

buy_25 said:
that is great more diesels but why do I want to pay more for fuel???

You don't have to... Life is about choices.

buy_25 · Jan 14, 2006

I agree 100% but I can see a new thread now when someone buys a diesel. It cost $$$$$ to fill it up. Then they will say "diesel is cheaper to make ......Can't wait for that; or round 1,001.

AndyM · Jan 14, 2006

buy_25 said:
Depends on what cars or trucks it is. So far diesels are more upfront and cost more to fix. Gas is cheaper to fuel and fix.

I know the money I saved on going to gas from diesel is paying for my Es300. Based on everyone needs diesel now, prices will go up higher since demend will be higher. People do not like diesel prices now.....

Boy, you're right again...
It certainly does depend on what cars or trucks it is...
My Cavalier cost less up front than your Lexus ES, AND it gets better fuel mileage! Not only that, but I'm doing my part to keep thousands of people in my neighborhood employed. Life is good!

More diesels coming soon?

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