Irresponsible!

BoneheadNW · Jan 24, 2006

Whoever made a gun available to his kid should pay the price!
Bonehead

Boy, 8, shoots girl, 7, at day-care center
Police say child pulled handgun from his backpack
WASHINGTON - An 8-year-old boy accidentally shot a 7-year-old girl in the arm Tuesday with a handgun he pulled from his backpack at a day-care center, police in suburban Montgomery County, Maryland, said.

The wounded girl was flown to a local hospital with a non-life-threatening injury, police spokesperson Lucille Baur said. There were six children at the For Kids We Care day-care center at the time the shooting and no one else was injured, she said.

The shooting happened just before 7 a.m. as the boy was handling the gun, which he brought to the center in his backpack, Baur said. Officers were investigating how the boy happened to have the weapon.
The children were attending a before-school program at the facility, which is located in an apartment complex in Germantown, Maryland.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 24, 2006

Yup - throw the book at whoever allowed that kid to have access to that gun.

Just remember - it's not the gun's fault, nor is it the fault of the gun's manufacturer and its not the fault of legal and responsible gun owners everywhere.

It could have just as easily been a knife, squirt gun full of bleach, big stick, broken bottle . . . etc.

BoneheadNW · Jan 24, 2006

PBinWA said:
Yup - throw the book at whoever allowed that kid to have access to that gun.

Just remember - it's not the gun's fault, nor is it the fault of the gun's manufacturer and its not the fault of legal and responsible gun owners everywhere.

It could have just as easily been a knife, squirt gun full of bleach, big stick, broken bottle . . . etc.

I agree 100%. Wow, I haven't said that in a while!
By the way, the sun just poked out here. How about in your area PB?
Bone

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 24, 2006

Sun yesterday and sun today! Why does it happen on days that I am working?

It looks really nice from my dark little feeding pen.

<sigh> I've got to bug out early!

OkeeDon · Jan 24, 2006

Bonehead said:
Whoever made a gun available to his kid should pay the price!

PBinWA said:
Yup - throw the book at whoever allowed that kid to have access to that gun.

And if it turns out to be stolen, then throw the book at whoever failed to protect it, and therefore let it be stolen.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 24, 2006

OkeeDon said:
And if it turns out to be stolen, then throw the book at whoever failed to protect it, and therefore let it be stolen.

Only if I can throw the book at anyone who fails to protect their cars and their stolen cars are used in a vehicular homicide.

Theft is wrong. Punish the person that stole it. I should be able to leave my guns locked inside my house or vehicle and nothing more. If someone breaks into my house/vehicle and steals the gun then I can not be held responsible for what is done with it. Theft would be the crime here. Not gun ownership.

Cowboyjg · Jan 24, 2006

You're right Don.....but I don't expect it's stolen. Me thinks it's stupid parents. The kind that should'nt have kids to begin with.

BoneheadNW · Jan 24, 2006

An update to the story. Looks like the boys dad is gonna pay.
Bonehead

Dad Arrested After Boy Brings Gun To Day Care

POSTED: 6:23 am PST January 24, 2006
UPDATED: 1:44 pm PST January 24, 2006

ROCKVILLE, Md. -- The father of the boy who allegedly shot a girl at a Montgomery County day-care center is under arrest.

John Lynwood Hall is charged with leaving a firearm in a location accessible by an unsupervised minor, as well as contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

According to police, the 8-year-old boy who brought the gun to day care is in their custody. He will undergo an evaluation and juvenile authorities will decide what to do with him.

Police said the father had the gun for several years and the boy retrieved it from an unsecured container in a closet of their Germantown, Md., home.

Police said the boy was playing with the gun in the backpack when it accidentally went off, wounding a 7-year-old girl at the For Kids We Care day-care center in Germantown.

Police said the boy did not take the gun out of the backpack.

The girl was struck in the arm. She was taken to Children's Hospital in Washington. Her injury is not considered life-threatening.

There were six children in the center at the time of the shooting, which occurred just about before 7 a.m. Tuesday. No one else was hurt.

Police have not released the child's condition and the said the shooting remains under investigation.

Dargo · Jan 24, 2006

OkeeDon said:
And if it turns out to be stolen, then throw the book at whoever failed to protect it, and therefore let it be stolen.

But Don, how would you feel about this possible dilemma? What if someone shot my dogs, disabled my video security, broke into my house and then I caught them breaking into one of my gun safes to steal my guns, and I blew their ass completely in half. How goes your thought then? Am I the bad guy? What if I am not home and the guy succeeds in stealing my guns with all of my security measures in place, and I immediately report the crime, would you still feel that I would be responsible for a crime the criminal may perpetrate with my stolen firearms?

Cowboyjg · Jan 24, 2006

Dargo...Your situation is unique. Most gun owners don't go to the extent you do to secure thier firearms. I understand you're point and in truth it is an example of how laws cannot be blanket to all instances. There needs to be the opportunity to examine each situation on it's own merits.

Spiffy1 · Jan 24, 2006

Beyond the girl being inured - fortunately not killed - I find the sad part being less in the fact that the kid had access to the gun, than he didn't know the dangers of it.

I can still remember my parents telling me, from the time I was old enough to talk and for the next 10 years, "Don't take a gun out unless you are planning to use it; know what you're shooting at, and what else is around if you miss; and, if you shoot something it's dead, dead things don't come back".

To this day I love to shoot targets, and an occasional a rabbit for the frying pan - not to mention deer season. While I understand, many city folk may not be able to use the same "real life" firearm training I had, I'm convinced a little education is as, if not more, important than whatever gun safes, locks, or hiding spots they could ever conjur.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 24, 2006

My parents told me to just never touch the guns. Didn't really work that great but when I did touch them I was too scared to do anything irresponsible with them. My lesson from being a boy growing up is that if you have children around then you lock up the guns. There are many things on the market that allow you to lock a gun up but still quickly access it. You may need to practice to be fast but it is possible and would prevent trajedys such as this one.

ddrane2115 · Jan 24, 2006

And if it turns out to be stolen, then throw the book at whoever failed to protect it, and therefore let it be stolen.>>>>>>>>>>>

NO! Why punish the innocent person when some crud, scum of the earth bastard can not keep his filthy stinking hands off what does NOT belong to him.

I guess in your eyes if somoene dies on YOUR tractor it is YOUR fault, even if they stole it, because you were to irresponsible to keep it all locked up tight.

ddrane2115 · Jan 24, 2006

I took my kids out to the range when we got married and I introduced guns to them in the house................oh my what a bad example I am!!!!!!!

First, 12 gauge, plastic milk container full of water.........bye bye! Kids now know that a 12 gauge at a range inside the house means your ass is GONE!

Second, rifle 22 caliber...........tin cans.......kids now know 22 = holes in places there should not be holes.

Third, 380 pistol, kids now know bigger holes in back and smaller in front, but bigger than 22...........still dead.

Forth, musket..............kids now know heavy gun barrel = lots of smoke, and at 50 yards, heavy steel target no longer where it was put.........in other words KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF unless dad is around to help you.

guess what, 13 years of loaded guns, locked behind glass and NEVER a fingerprint. Also one beside me in the desk, never a fingerprint...............

JimR · Jan 24, 2006

Parental responsibility is the key here.

ddrane2115 · Jan 25, 2006

EXACTLY! Glad to see you see that!

Spiffy1 · Jan 25, 2006

ddrane2115 said:
I took my kids out to the range when we got married and I introduced guns to them in the house................oh my what a bad example I am!!!!!!!

Now that sounds like great parenting to me! :a1:

beds · Jan 25, 2006

Greetings all! This is my first post - former GW member and Canadian who looks at all of this U.S. embracing of firearms/2nd amendment stuff and shakes my head. I do like the openness here and ability to speak freely. No offense is meant by any of my ramblings. I have come to learn that all criminals in the U.S. are well armed and thus most of its citizenry feel that they need to be. However.

The immediate posts you guys make are all from your NRA bibles, I'm sure. "In the case of a child getting shot accidentally, state that it is an issue with education and not an issue with the over-proliferation of handguns". The excerpt we didn't read from the paper about this is how "20 minutes after being arrested, the father was seen leaving the police station with a red handmark on his wrist".

And personally, I don't believe in the bleach spray bottle being as much of a threat, or a knife or broken bottle for that matter. An 8 year old would have to be pretty determined to use any of those as weapons, whereas pulling a gun from the backpack and shooting something is done 100s of times a day on his PS2 and on TV.

Melensdad · Jan 25, 2006

beds . . . I'm not sure that I understand why you think there is an "over-proliferation" of any type of weapon. It is a nice sweeping generality so it probably will be glossed over by most. As for the embracing of firearms/2nd amendment, you have to understand our history and culture to understand that feeling. It amazes me that people think the US and Canada are similar, but in my mind our cultures are very very different.

As for you not believing that other things are a threat, that is fine by me. You are welcome to believe that. But when someone attacks you or anyone else with a knife or a broken bottle then I guess we will all just agree that they don't have to defend themselves because they were not threatened??? Or if they are bleeding we should suggest that it really is just superficial?

Well I happen to know a woman who was just brutally raped, beaten and stabbed less than 2 weeks ago. It was not at gunpoint. She was very near death and only very lucky to have survived. It happened inside her apartment.

Personally, I think if she had a gun and if she had used it, society would be far better off today. The fact that she doesn't (yet) have a gun is proof to me that there is no 'over-proliferation' of guns.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

beds said:
Greetings all! This is my first post - former GW member and Canadian who looks at all of this U.S. embracing of firearms/2nd amendment stuff and shakes my head. I do like the openness here and ability to speak freely. No offense is meant by any of my ramblings. I have come to learn that all criminals in the U.S. are well armed and thus most of its citizenry feel that they need to be. However.

The immediate posts you guys make are all from your NRA bibles, I'm sure. "In the case of a child getting shot accidentally, state that it is an issue with education and not an issue with the over-proliferation of handguns". The excerpt we didn't read from the paper about this is how "20 minutes after being arrested, the father was seen leaving the police station with a red handmark on his wrist".

And personally, I don't believe in the bleach spray bottle being as much of a threat, or a knife or broken bottle for that matter. An 8 year old would have to be pretty determined to use any of those as weapons, whereas pulling a gun from the backpack and shooting something is done 100s of times a day on his PS2 and on TV.

Welcome beds, well I hate to break it to you but I'm Canadian too (please see my earlier posts in this thread).

Guess what? Criminals in Canada are well armed too. There are lots of guns in Canada and I'm sure many of them came throught the US but there are lots of "illegal" guns that came from other countries too. There are many WWII firearms floating around Canada that were never registered when brought over. Just like the heroin that is prevalent in the streets of Vancouver, the supply will always meet the demand.

Last time I checked I could buy all sorts of toy guns and PS2's up in Canada too.

Now let me get this straight. You are inferring that the US gun culture is the problem here? Not the fact that someone was an irresponsible parent?

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

Also, in Canada the father would have been released just as quickly. If anything Canada is much less strict on enforcement than the US. Canada has lots of laws and regulations that make life difficult for law abiding citizens but when it comes to actually enforcing the law and punishing criminals it is an even bigger joke.

Hopefully, Mr. Harper can correct some of the ineptitude that has being going on up there for the last 12 years.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

B_Skurka said:
beds . . . I'm not sure that I understand why you think there is an "over-proliferation" of any type of weapon. It is a nice sweeping generality so it probably will be glossed over by most. As for the embracing of firearms/2nd amendment, you have to understand our history and culture to understand that feeling. It amazes me that people think the US and Canada are similar, but in my mind our cultures are very very different.

As for you not believing that other things are a threat, that is fine by me. You are welcome to believe that. But when someone attacks you or anyone else with a knife or a broken bottle then I guess we will all just agree that they don't have to defend themselves because they were not threatened??? Or if they are bleeding we should suggest that it really is just superficial?

Well I happen to know a woman who was just brutally raped, beaten and stabbed less than 2 weeks ago. It was not at gunpoint. She was very near death and only very lucky to have survived. It happened inside her apartment.

Personally, I think if she had a gun and if she had used it, society would be far better off today. The fact that she doesn't (yet) have a gun is proof to me that there is no 'over-proliferation' of guns.

Great points Bob!

Remember in Canada you do not have the right to protect yourself and your property. You are expected to make every effort to flee in the face of violent criminal. The only people that can defend you are the RCMP (police) so you better hope they are not under-staffed, under-paid, over-worked, or outgunned when a criminal comes knocking and that you have time to call 911.

beds · Jan 25, 2006

I do appreciate and respect that the 2nd amendment comes from the birth of the nation, when its citizens felt the need to protect themselves - even from the government. And I agree that I do not fully understand that - if I did I probably wouldn't have posted.

In my community, people, in general do not have guns. I think if everyone had guns, I would want one too. And I think there would be more armed crimes. I do not personally believe in the right to carry concealed weapons deterring crimes.

I wasn't trying to suggest that these other weapons are not threats, just that they are not likely threats from an 8 year old. I would suggest that if 80% of your population has handguns, that will increase your accidental handgun death/injury rate over my community that may have 5% of its population with handguns.

And if I lived in the U.S., I would likely own a gun - fearing for the intruders who had guns - not knives.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

beds said:
In my community, people, in general do not have guns.

Correction: In my community, law abiding people, in general do not have guns because it has become impossible for anyone interested in guns to own one. Stupid laws and bureaucratic procedures have prevented law abiding people from enjoying a great sporting and recreational activity as well as having the ability to defend themselves and their property.

Melensdad · Jan 25, 2006

beds said:
In my community, people, in general do not have guns. I think if everyone had guns, I would want one too. And I think there would be more armed crimes. I do not personally believe in the right to carry concealed weapons deterring crimes.

What you believe and what is factual are contradictory. States that have a higher rate of gun ownership have lower crime rates. Even in the populous urban areas within those states with high gun ownership the crime rate is lower than similar sized urban centers in states with lower gun ownership. You need to begin to embrace reality and stop believing in untruths.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

B_Skurka said:
What you believe and what is factual are contradictory. States that have a higher rate of gun ownership have lower crime rates. Even in the populous urban areas within those states with high gun ownership the crime rate is lower than similar sized urban centers in states with lower gun ownership. You need to begin to embrace reality and stop believing in untruths.

I believe that there are also statistics that indicate the rate of home invasions and violent attacks on individuals actual goes up in countries that have imposed gun bans on their law abiding citizens.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

Some interesting Canadian stories:

Canada's Crime Rate 50 % Higher than U.S.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/24/150547.shtml

UNARMED CANADIAN GUARDS FLEE DURING BORDER SHOOT-OUT...
http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2006/01/24/borderguards060124.html

TORIES SAY BORDER GUARDS WILL GET HANDGUNS:
'FLEEING THEIR POST BAD FOR OUR IMAGE'

http://news.yahoo.com/s/cpress/20060125/ca_pr_on_na/border_shutdown;_ylt=AlRSRd48Q0NShFwHvTNBv_9p9L4F;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

Melensdad · Jan 25, 2006

PBinWA, yes you are correct. In fact in England, the nation that can be considered the motherland of both the US and Canada, the rate of violent crime is climbing at an alarming rate. Scotland is now considered to be one of the most dangerous nations in the developed world (debate about this and proof from the London Times were provided in another thread here on FF).

beds. . . as to your point about accidental deaths being higher, yes, I will agree with you. Would you also agree that in nations that have a higher rate of automobile ownership that there are a greater number of people who die in car accidents?

BoneheadNW · Jan 25, 2006

If I may step in (it) here: This may be obvious, but guns/gun control is one of the many topics that people will argue about passionately and yet no one is going to change their mind. I don't have to worry about that, I have no mind. :Whacky_To
Bone

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Jan 25, 2006

Yes - someone touched a nerve with me!

Check out these stats on Canada's Incarceration rate:

http://bpoc.blogspot.com/2005/12/guns-effectiveness-of-registry.html

Percentage of Murderers Imprisoned (does not take multiple murders into account)

2000 - 18%
2001 - 25.6%
2002 - 22.2%
2003 - 19.1%

Favorite quote from this site:

"perhaps if you ban crime altogether, that will help........"

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