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DMC 1450 in Deep Snow

ronfam

New member
Hi all, I am new to this forum. I have owned a 1981 DMC 1450 widetrack for 7 years and despite feeling more comfortable with my driving skills continue to have difficulty in the deep, light snow we have in the mid winter in Northern Colorado. I spoke with a vendor who proposed adding another belt and longer, outer grousers to my tracks, to make an asymmetric track. Any thoughts?
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
should help how wide is your track now and where is your difficulty when climbing hills or on the flats also how deep are you sinking my litte snow trac has almoste no cleats yet preforms wonderful on virgin snow over 10 feet deep yet i don't climb steep inclines real well if there is no crust to bite into the only solution i see is deep padles and high power to weight like a snowmobile
 

Mtn-Track

Member
Hello RONFAM, and wecome!

It's probably the nature of the beast you own. Had the same issue with the county's Spryte in our 'normal' snow conditions. More track, more clearance, and less weight is about all you can look at. Getting the nose to keep from pushing a pile of snow would be best, but hard to do without some sort of lift-kit or extended skid plate.

Got winch?:wink:
 

ronfam

New member
Thanks for your thoughts here. My difficutly is with uphill climbs in soft snow. I find driving backwards I can usually clear the climbs more easily (trick from Snotrans--Thanks Bill Guthrie!) The tracks are the stock widetrack-so 31 1/2 inches. A place in Utah will add a 5 inch belt and the grousers but it is an $8000 job. Seems like a lot, but I have never done track work before so perhaps they are just expensive. I did find a similar thread about 4-5 years ago, someone called "snowcat operations" who was looking at the same issue. I will try to track him down. Here are some pics, and yeah, we get a lot of snow here......
 

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mkntrakes

Active member
wider tracks will just make it worse as it is underpowered now the reason it goes better in reverse is reverse is a lower gear than 1st only cure is to put in a under drive (transfer case with low range)to gear it down
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
looing at where you are stuck you are asking a little too much of it be advised that steering is going to take a lot longer in those conditions as you will dig in the the inside track and spin the outside about the only thing that belongs there is a snow master or some other super wide track rig that for skislope grooming that can inch it's way through the hill climb
 

tomelroy

Member
would a wt imp (not super imp) climb better in this situation?

They have the 4 speed rear end. I have an imp that has a ford inline 4 with a c-4 automatic trans and the c4 (four speed) rear end. In the process of a restore, have never had it in the snow. Just curious it that configuration would be better in these conditions.

By the way, thats a good looking 1450!
 

Borvig

New member
Good Day, That is one gorgious 1450. And, it looks like you give it the care it deserves. My comments will undoubtedly stimulate an avalanche of followup responses and that is just what you are looking for. What I'd do is get rid of that "wheelbarrow" underecarrage. It would increase the ride height, reduce friction, and make the machine much easier to care for. I did this with my narrow gauge 1450 about 10 years ago, and never regreted the move. I went from the origonal tracks that were about 25 inches wide to over 32 inches bu mounting a set of "barrel stave" style tracks from a Spryte. It would look like a major undertaking at first, but was really quite simple. The entire under carrage of 1450's mounts on a subframe. (I don't know if this applies to Imps as well.) About a dozen bolts removed after splitting the tracks and everything from nose wheel up to the sproket, which stays with the machine, will roll right out from under the machine. You disturb none of the drive train. If you are starting with a narrow version of the Super Imp, simply reverse the mounting of the sprokest from "dish in to dish out" and you are set to go. Remove all the 8 inch "wheelbarrow" wheels and the leaf springs and pull out the tensioner and nose wheel. My machine had been worked so hard as a snowmobile trail grommer, that I built an entire new sub frame, but that still took only a day. We mounted 4 12" wheels and tires of the same width, purchased at the local NAPA store, on each side. The track tensioner had to be modified to take a different wheel hub, and to move the nose wheel (now one of the four new wheels on each side) outward to allow for the change in gauge. It needed no other changes and slipped back into its origonal location. My machine had an 8 way blade on front which needed no change what-so-ever. The other three wheels on each side were equipped with torsion equipped hubs from a company named "Reliable" which sells through Northern Tool and Hyd. among others. When the changes were finished we simply rolled the subframe back under the machine an bolted it in place with the origonal hardware. The top side of the tracks ran level from the top of the sproket to the top of the new 12' wheels on the return run, although this was due to pure luck and not design. I foam filled the front and rear wheel on each side, and we were ready to go. the refit yielded about 6 to 8 inches of ground clearence, and the "barrelstave" grousers from the Spryte made turns on hard snow much easier. I ran this machine for 8 years with no changes or problems, but did eventualy fill all the tires over time. The most difficult part of the project was calculating the position of the rearmost axle such that the belt/track length would make for a comfortable splice. I have pictures of the entire process, but others have done this same conversion in almost identical fashon and posted pics. If you want to see mine E-mail. I always found 100 hp. to be plenty. I worried more about the C4 , whishing it were a C6. Both motor and transmission are becoming obsolete, but not unserviceable. A 4bt Cummins might be considered heavy but I'd love to have given it a try. I used to simply drop down a gear in sharp courners, and the machine would just come around like a boat, with little strain or protest. As I said at the start you have a sweet machine, Good Luck
 

ronfam

New member
Hmm, interesting thoughts. Borvig's "lift kit" sounds expensive. After all, I would still need a new set of tracks. If I change the pairs of 8 inch wheels to a single 12inch wheel do I lose what little shock absorption the cat has? Can you just run a set of 1450 tracks over 4 twelve inch wheels instead of the standard 6 eight inch wheels, just to get more clearance? It seems the LMC 1500 has the wheel setup like this. Not sure if I am modifying this too much. I haven't been able to PM the contributor named "Snowcat Operations" about the modification he tried in 2007 as his mailbox is full, if anyone knows him. Thanks for all of the healthy discussion on this.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Snowcat Operations is not around much as he travels with his work. He does stop in some times though. Not sure what to do about his PM being full.

Regards, Kirk
 

Borvig

New member
Hello Again, The cost wasn't as bad as you might think, at least in the world of tracked vehicles. The hardware, ,wheels, tires, hubs, spindles with torsion units, (same as fitted to light trailers) and the steel needed to fabricate the subframe ran me about $1100. We were able to reuse about half the old frame here and there. Spryte tracks, 68 grousers worth, times two I was able to find for $1600 for both. New belts for one side, somewhere between $1600 and $1800. As to using your existing 31.5 Super Imp tracks? Yes with no problem, but the changes will shorten your footprint slightly. This will make the machine turn easier, but you are looking for better flotation, so search out some additional grousers (perhaps 6 to 8 per side) and streach the tracks a bit. This will keep the machine from becoming nose lite as well. If out looking for tracks in the boneyards, NEVER buy a set that has been coiled up and stored on its end without close inspection. And NEVER store a set in that maner. If left on salty groound at the edge of a parking lot, the end of every grouser will be eaten away and need restoration. If left on their sides, only perhaps two or three will become damaged. I never have understood why pallets, which have no moving parts seem so hard to use or find? Lots of evenings, PB Blaster and Howes, and about $400 worth of fine thread bolts and nuts and the tracks looked pretty good. It took about 18 months, but I found a buyer for all the surplus undercarrage parts I had removed and the grousers. ( I started this project needing to rebelt my origonal tracks, so I stripped off the old belts) That sale covered the new belting. I moved the servicable used belts all to one side and put all the new ones on one side. That is another NEVER, don't mix old and new belts on the same track set. You can do the addition, I never do, If I did I'd never have the courage to finish. Don't even ask about labor. It was a long summer, filled with quiet evenings in the shop while my wife played late rounds of golf.
 

mkntrakes

Active member
Borvig just curious what altitude you run your machine at?Ronfam is running at 10,ooo ft and every super imp i have been around is way under powered and giving it a lift won,t cure the problem. Years ago we put the 12 inch tires under a super imp and put a oc12 with gear reduction and 36inch spryte tracks on it it was a good machine but in doing the conversion whe spent 8000.00 in parts and 100s of hrs of labor that was ten years ago.It was used up in the steamboat area until a pack rat got in an severed the fuel line took for spin caught fire and burned to the ground
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
those northern torsion axles are a good price i used 250 ld axles to replace my front boggie set up they are a little lightspring wise and have taken a bit of camber i don't like so im looking at a different set that are indexable so i can better control ride hight
 

mkntrakes

Active member
would a wt imp (not super imp) climb better in this situation?

They have the 4 speed rear end. I have an imp that has a ford inline 4 with a c-4 automatic trans and the c4 (four speed) rear end. In the process of a restore, have never had it in the snow. Just curious it that configuration would be better in these conditions.

By the way, thats a good looking 1450!

Is that one that Peterson converted years ago? let see some pictures i heard about there conversion but never seen one. heard from people that the auto was nice but didn't really change performance
 

Borvig

New member
Ahh Yes Altitude! I'm afraid I failed to take that into account in rendering an opinion. My highest trail point is less than 10% of your altitude, and I take twenty lashes for overlooking that factor. Quite elimentary. I considered at one time transplanting a 300 EFI 6 cyl. Ford into my machine. Measurements as I recall showed the driveshaft to be long enough to acomodate the necessary shortening to squeeze in the longer engine. Height was a factor too but not much. I never considered the 250 small block motor, not common enough and still a carburated engine. I also groom at about 3 1/2 mph. perhaps way too slow for your needs or desire, so I may not feel the need for as much power. I may also be missing the basic shortcoming. Is it flotation, power or a combination of both that presents the problem. As to my costs, I am a self professed "bottom feeder", where parts are concerned. My works are labors of love, and I am long enough in the tooth, to have worked on these machines for some time. Olivers, Cleatrac, Case 350's, and Bombardiar are an extended family to me. The 1450 was one of my favorites because of the OC-12 rear end, overkill is sweet when you can get it. Sorry I forgot about the lack of oxygen, I'd get nosebleeds at your altitude. I'm only 60 miles fro the ocean!
 

zspryte

Member
Site Supporter
I find my Spryte standard track also drives and turns much better in deep snow in reverse than in forward. I don't think it is a gearing issue since with an OC-4, 2nd and rear have the same gear ratios and 1st gear is even lower. (Snowcat Pat posted the gear ratios in here back in May, 2010.)

Last year after a major 6 foot dump of very light snow my cat was sinking about 3 feet down. Without a blade, the front acted as a plow. Whenever the snow got to the bottom of my windshield I had to back up a bit and go around the pile. My cat had plenty of power to drive forward as long as I wasn't plowing/pushing too much snow at the same time.

I read some Army stuff on tracked vehicles that calculated how much power is needed to crush the snow under the track as you drive. The more you compress snow, the stronger the snow gets. Hence, the deeper you compress the snow, the more power is required to compress it. With wider tracks, you compress a larger width of snow, but you don't have to go as deep to support the vehicle. This means less power is required per inch of track width to get to a snow strength that will support the cat. This suggests that wider tracks would require less power, not more. However, the reduction might be small.

Can you give us some more information about what is happening when you are having problems. Is your cat pushing/plowing any snow in front as you drive? Are your tracks spinning in the snow? Is your engine dieing or bogging down because it doesn't have enough power? Are you getting a lot of snow under you machine?

On several occasions in deep, very very powdery snow, the snow under my cat between the tracks has pushed up against the bottom of the cat in spots. I noticed my axles having to push through the packed snow and my underbelly snow plate packing it down. I don't know how much drag this creates. Also, when the snow builds up under belly, the snow can supports the cat a bit reducing the pressure between the tracks and the snow under the tracks. I think this is what happened several times to me last year. My tracks spun without the cat moving after driving into and up a deep fluffy drift. (I let things sit for a few minutes and then I was able to get going again.)
 

ronfam

New member
Power, clearance or traction? I would have to answer that all are issues. On some steep climbs the tracks slow and eventually stop, even if the engine is still running slowly (sometimes the engine dies). More often the tracks are spinning, dig down and I lose traction. I then back down and herringbone back and forth up the climb. Often if I flip around I can back up the hill just fine. For sure, the rear end leaves a nice skid mark in the snow behind me, even when the snow is not too deep. At this elevation carburetors do not function as well as fuel injection so I have asked about switching to an injection system but the folks at Safety One didn't think it would be worth the investment. Someone else also told me bigger tracks yield better float requiring less power since I am not trying to dig myself out of a whole all the time, which is why I was pursuing the wider-track thing in the first place. Keep the ideas coming, I appreciate your thoughts/experience/wisdom here.
 

Borvig

New member
This is developing into an interesting thread. Two comments have included being able to back up grades that could not be driven up. This causes me to throw the question of track tension on the table. I run my belts such that in my tightest turns (ie. one where just as I am about to stop and back up, the machine finally comes around.) I "might" pop a sproket tooth. As I indicated before I have the habit of dropping a gear in tight corners usually when I reach about 45 degrees, and I'll upshift when I have perhaps 30 degrees to finish. I do this because I can keep RPMs constant, and by that time I'm pretty sure the inside differental drum is stationary, and any more pulling on the stick is only going to stress the machine. All this being said, when I watch the tracks in my mirror while backing up, the belts are slack when they come off the sproket and are being laid on the snow. Going forward the opposite is true, with the top belt having a slight sag as it leaves the sproket for the top of the rearmost wheel and the belt tight as it comes up from the rear bogie to the sproket. If gearing is the same forward and backward, engine to track, is this changing of tension top to bottom enough to improve traction? Does the change in engine position from front to rear have any importance? Perhaps those with time in J5's and Muskegs could comment on front vrs. rear drive. Lastly, how much of a load do you carry? The cabin looks large enough for say 5 to 7 passengers. Add gear and that little Maverick motor is begining to look undersized for the task.
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
wider tacks are going to provide better flotation in thery reducing horspower required to move the additional width plus deep biting grousers are going to suck up any reserve hp wider tracks will require more hoerse power ask any one who has tryed to run snow trac gears in a snow master my guess is the reason the 1450 climbs better in reverse is the ramped track at the rear and having the engine at the back the reason for mid engine placement on tuckers intended for grooming the down side is power transfer should be more efeciant with rear drive
 

GSSD06

Member
I have not been on for quite a while, way too busy with work and out playing in the snow. I have a factory full cab Super Imp which has worked very well for me in our low elevations in the Cascade Mountains outside of the Seattle, Washington area. Most of my trips are up to about 4000' in elevation.

Only about three times in the last six years, usually right after a big storm, I have had problems in deep snow. Each of these times snow building up above the bogie frame pushes the top of the track up and packs in to the front of the track. If I am climbing a hill and turning more in one direction, it will actually stop one track like I am holding that brake on (and move forward in a straight line). Here most recently I found if I back up on the packed track behind me, the snow can clear out by itself. The first time it happened to me we used a shovel handle to punch the packed in snow out through the gaps in the suspension frame. It took about ten minutes to clear and about 1/4 mile to repack. Luckily that time we only cleared twice before getting to the radio site. The next time it happened we cleared the tracks twice and then decided to try again another day, being about two miles away and unsure about a wind drift prone corner a mile ahead anyway. The last time was a few days ago in several feet of our fresh Cascade Concrete, the best snowball snow around. We hauled in a couple friends to a gate at the Mount Rainier National Park who were going to snow shoe in to a cabin and spend several days there. The snow was so unconsolidated they turned around after less than a mile and called us back to pick them up.

Looking at my friends Sno Trac along with us, his deflector sprays snow out of the inside of the track to keep it from building up on the inside. I looked at my Super Imp to see if I could build a similar deflector, but it will be a bit different since my tracks have very little room compared to the tall tracks of the Sno Trac.

It looks to me like snow that builds up on the inside of the track is carried up on top of the suspension frame when the rear of the track wraps around the drive sprocket. You can often see it spray in front of you when you are in semi-deep snow. I think in deeper snow when the front of the machine sinks in this snow cannot escape and packs into the front. Eventually the inside of the top of the track is lifted up and the grousers will hit the floor boards at the driver or passengers feet.

I have found that for the conditions I drive in my full cab Super Imp has plenty of power. The top speed lacks a bit, but most often it is too bumpy to go fast with the surging or rocking motion of a short wheel base. I do find that when I get into the deep snow I have to shift the C4 automatic down into second gear and if climbing steeply maybe into first gear. That has become an indication to me that conditions are likely to start packing snow in, so I open the door and look to see if the inside of the track is lifting up. It feels to me like a lot of horsepower is being used up packing the snow in. Hard to tell how much is being used up dragging the suspension frame that hangs down into the snow or the differential which is the first thing to start dragging.

One other thing I fortunately learned early on was to be careful making sharp turns when backing up in the Super Imp. The first time I noticed a potential issue I was travelling up a logging road well used by 4x4 enthusiasts. There were very deep ruts in hard packed snow. When I got to a point one was stuck in the middle of the road I stopped, pulled him out, and while turning around I backed up making a hard turn and noticed something did not feel right. I got out and looked and one rear sprocket was starting to walk out of the tire guides. After looking at the situation I decided to move forward in an opposite turn with someone watching and walked the sprocket back into the tire guides. Now days when I turn around on a narrow road I turn going forward and back up without turning.

Hope this might help someone with some symptoms to watch for. If I manage to make a deflector that helps with the snow packing I will try to post pictures.
 

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JimVT

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Has anyone delt with this snow packing in the tracks? I was with him when it happened the last time.
jim
 

mbsieg

awful member
GOLD Site Supporter
Just my opinion the tracks look way to loose in his pic same with walking out of them.
 

GSSD06

Member
The tracks do look loose in the picture, but I think it is deceiving because there is a lot of snow lifting the inside of the tracks up several inches which has forced the outside of the track down several inches.

During the first few years I had the snow cat I tightened and loosened the tracks in various conditions, mostly to make the machine track straight and to keep from hopping a tooth on the drive sprocket when going downhill on compression and making a sharp turn.

When I backed up and started to walk the one drive sprocket out of the tire guides I think it was partly because the grousers were not flat on that side due to the deep ruts in the road I was crossing at an angle.

I also rolled a tire off one time by driving along a ditch on a road that was wind drifted because the grousers were at a steep enough angle that the top of one side of the tire guide was pushing on the tire.

Wish I had more pictures, it is pretty hard to accurately describe the phenomenons. Thanks for the suggestion on track tension, I may get the grease gun out and see what affect it might have.
 

redsqwrl

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
$.02

I have a 1404 WT Full cab. and the previous owner has the tracks a bit tight for my taste, When I inquired about tension he said I would blow tires and build snow and walk out of the tracks on severe camber situations.

I pull a snow plane drag a bit here and there and usually in deep ditches and heavy wet snows that prohibit the bigger machines operation.

I don't have any of these problems?
I am a bit lighter than you.
I have less power as well.
I do have a bit more gound clearence that might be letting snow out?

Mike
 

JimVT

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Mike
I was with him and the loose tracks were resting on all tires .do the tighter tracks just bounce on the tires? Maybe this would let more snow fall out?
Bruce just run on packed ground and everthing cleared.
jim
 
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