• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

"Feeler" for interest in six-way blades for Tuckers...

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
One upcoming chapter in the Snowzilla project thread will be about a six-way blade. There's a forum member who wants to buy the completed machine and he wants a six-way blade. Our other project machine, Thundercat, left the factory with a Tucker six-way blade and we have the blade and all the other parts to use for reference in making the blade for Snowzilla. Scott, my snowcat buddy/co-conspirator and I will tackle that project, though we anticipate making some changes to the original design.

Over the years on the forum, people have expressed a desire to add a blade to their Tucker. My standard reply is “The system is complex and doing the design and fabrication would be time-consuming, difficult and expensive, as would the installation. It’s cheaper to find a machine with a blade than to try and add one".

I suppose you could contact Tucker and inquire as to the cost to have them do it, but I think that number would be eye-watering.



If you’ve ever been involved in cutting steel, you know that the time to set up the machine to do the cutting typically takes more time than the cutting itself. Taking that a step further, cutting a second (or subsequent) part takes less time than the first. So it might be worthwhile for us to make a few additional blades for others...


Some of the components we don't have the capability of fabricating, and would need to purchase those from another firm. Two of those are the moldboard (the curved steel of the plow blade) and the replaceable cutting edge at the bottom. We can source those from a company in SLC that’s actually quite close to Scott’s shop.


Anyway, we were kicking the idea around. The very first step is to see if there’s enough interest to pursue it further. Of course, a potential buyer wants to know “What's involved and what's the cost”?


We don’t want to be in the business of building and installing blades, so our conceptual idea would be for us to fabricate the parts and ship them to the buyer who would install the blade on their machine (or have someone local install it for them). We would supply four major components:

1.) The blade itself.

2.) The A-frame (which the blade attaches to).

3.) The axle-mounted frame (which bolts to the front axle, and the A-frame connects the axle-mounted frame to the blade).

4.) The thrust transfer frame (which has four arms welded to the Tucker frame that transfers the load from the axle mounted frame to the snowcat. (Note: these are my terms for the parts.) And we’d supply a few smaller components; the weld-on bracket to mount the valve to the Tucker and another weld-on bracket for connecting hydraulic lines at the front of the snowcat.



The buyer would be responsible for purchasing all the other required parts. That list would include at a minimum:


- Four hydraulic cylinders for the blade’s functions (we’d provide the specs).


- All the hydraulic lines to connect the valve to the front of the snowcat (6).


- The hydraulic lines from the snowcat to the individual hydraulic cylinders (6).


- The three spool hydraulic valve (more on this later).


- The valve supply hydraulic line from the pump.


- The valve return line to the hydraulic reservoir.


- All hydraulic fittings for the various lines.


- Quick disconnect male and female fittings at the front of the machine (so you can easily remove the blade).


- A hydraulic fluid cooler.


I’m almost positive Tucker purchased the valve assembly in it’s entirety. While I listed it above as a "three spool valve”, the genius of the system is the handle and the linkages that make it work. Typically a three spool valve would have three independent levers that control the functions of each spool. For example, one lever would control the up-down function, another would control the angle left, angle right and the third would control the tilt left, tilt right.


The six-way valve used in the factory system has one T-shaped handle. You pull the handle back to raise the blade, push forward to lower the blade, pull the handle left to angle the blade left, push the handle right to angle the blade right and twist the handle in either direction to tilt the blade.


I THINK Tucker purchased the valves and linkages from John Deere. (I remember as a boy seeing a John Deere bulldozer with a similar handle.) I purchased a used John Deere valve from a heavy equipment salvage yard for Snowzilla. It was very difficult to find, and not cheap. A buyer of our blade components would need to find a similar valve, or come up with their own valve system. We would supply as part of our package a bracket to mount the John Deere valve in the cab. This bracket would be welded to the Tucker frame.


Realize the installation of the blade system would require removing (at a minimum) the front seats, floor covering(s) and the floor underneath the front seats. That would give access to the frame for welding the valve bracket to the frame, and access to run the various hydraulic lines. It would also require modifying the floor for the bracket and cutting holes in the floor for the various (8) hydraulic lines to connect to the valve. That would also require pulling up the floor covering(s) and cutting it/them accordingly.


At the front of the Tucker underneath the grille, Tucker welds a piece of flat bar with six welded couplings. The hydraulic lines from the valve thread into the back of these couplings, and quick disconnect fittings thread into the front. We would supply the bar with the couplings welded. However, in our experience the flat bar isn’t strong enough, and so we would supply a piece of channel with the couplings welded to that. Installation requires cutting holes in the grille for the hydraulic lines, and welding in the piece of channel.


I’m going into considerable detail of the system, and the tasks required for the installation so a prospective buyer understands the scope of the project, and the work involved, in order for them to make an informed decision. When Tucker built snowcats to a customer's order, that also involved using components with different performance specifications based on the individual machines options. If a customer ordered a six-way blade and/or rear hydraulics Tucker used a different hydraulic pump configuration.


As part of the Snowzilla project, we are upgrading the hydraulic pump volumetric output for the addition of the blade. We are also doing a steering system upgrade that requires modifying the pump to send more volume to the steering system (makes the steering quicker) and increasing the pump output pressure (reduces the steering effort). The steering system upgrade also entails installing a dual cross-port relief valve between the Orbitrol and the hydraulic steering cylinder. These modifications were suggested by Jeff Godard at Tucker for our Thundercat project, and we’re incorporating them on Snowzilla as well. In the Thundercat project we made a new hydraulic tank and installed a second hydraulic filter, so all return fluid gets filtered (that's not the case in the stock Tucker system). With Snowzilla, we cut apart the existing tank and welded a new front panel on it containing an additional threaded bung for a second filter. The steering upgrades are an individual decision, as is the hydraulic filtration modification, but we would recommend upgrading pump output volume if you’re going to add a blade. (Those modifications will also be detailed in the Snowzilla thread.)


When we were discussing the idea of making a few blades, we also discussed cost. We did not spend the time to get an exact number, because it’s a waste of time if there is no interest. But, back-of-the-napkin math showed an estimated cost for the components I’ve listed above at $5,000. That would be F.O.B. Scott’s shop. Purchasers would be welcome to pick up the components, or we would strap them to pallets for shipping at customer expense.


Feel free to ask questions. At this point we’re trying to gauge interest. If it’s sufficient, we’ll then set a time period for ordering, as well as the process.
 

The Sweet Wbj1

Active member
I searched a long time trying to buy the mystical 1644 or 1643 with a blade. Since I joined this forum I have only seen one machine with a factory blade for sale. It was the one listed by MONSTER JEFF. It had a lot of hours on it and had a modified body. One can only guess what kind of job was done on the body conversion. In other words, I have NEVER seen a decent 1644 or 1643 with a factory blade for sale.

However, I have seen a few posts over the years about adding a blade to a Tucker. This seems like an excellent solution to a real problem from an extremely reputable source. Respect to Blackfoot for offering this up to folks.
 

Red130

Member
Komatsu also had a 3-spool valve with the twist handle but I never found a P/N.

Perhaps another option if you can't get a 3-spool joystick would be to use a nice 4-way joystick (like Brand Hydraulics MB22 series) with an electrical switch mounted on the handle. The switch could run a diverter valve for one spool to run the blade tilt.
One other thing to consider is adding a float valve. Some machines control the float valve with a foot swtich.

Here is a link to Komatsu's 3-spool joystick patent:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/8e/22/9a/019ad20eabbda7/US5429037.pdf
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Komatsu also had a 3-spool valve with the twist handle but I never found a P/N.

Perhaps another option if you can't get a 3-spool joystick would be to use a nice 4-way joystick (like Brand Hydraulics MB22 series) with an electrical switch mounted on the handle. The switch could run a diverter valve for one spool to run the blade tilt.
One other thing to consider is adding a float valve. Some machines control the float valve with a foot swtich.

Here is a link to Komatsu's 3-spool joystick patent:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/8e/22/9a/019ad20eabbda7/US5429037.pdf

Great ideas! I wonder how difficult it would be to find a used Komatsu valve?

The hydraulic guy in SLC I use, Jeff Campbell, was a HUGE help during the Thundercat project. I emailed him some photos of the original Gresen brand valve in the Tucker and he thought the Parker SPK-4-4-4-1500 HP would be the right valve. But that was the valve only (without the linkages) and it was over $1K.
 

Cidertom

Chionophile
GOLD Site Supporter
Going to throw a "out of box" idea into the mix.

Have you considered a electric spool valve block? Instead of running 8 lines into the cab, mount the spool block on the blade frame. It might be possible to make it so one pair of quick connects and the hydraulic is free of the tucker to make dropping the blade somewhat easier. I've done a few projects with electric valves and so far it has been easier to run control wires than bundles of hose. The downside is lack of proportional control. But how many times do you need to feather the speed on a blade movement. I've done both direct switch and relay driven. Direct switch is simpler, but need larger amperage switches. Relay is slightly more complicated, but allows the use of smaller control wiring / switches.

Just a thought
 

Red130

Member
$1000 w/o linkages. Ouch. If you have a Komatsu dealer in SLC maybe there is someone there who's worked there for about 20 years and could point you toward a source for their valves?

I think for normal cat tasks like cutting in a road or building a ramp for trailer loading an electric valve block would work fine. I have a Kubota with 3rd function valve on the loader and control a V-plow with it. The 3rd Func (electrical control) doesn't offer any feel but it gets the job done. For more precise work (trail grooming) the proportional valves are nice but maybe not essential.
 

sno-drifter

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Here is the TEE handle mechanism for a six way blade as used on John Deere 450C crawler. It bolts onto a straight three spool valve. The handle is out of photo top.
 

Attachments

  • JD six way 1.jpg
    JD six way 1.jpg
    88.8 KB · Views: 251
  • JD six way 2.jpg
    JD six way 2.jpg
    72.2 KB · Views: 246

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Going to throw a "out of box" idea into the mix.

Have you considered a electric spool valve block? Instead of running 8 lines into the cab, mount the spool block on the blade frame. It might be possible to make it so one pair of quick connects and the hydraulic is free of the tucker to make dropping the blade somewhat easier. I've done a few projects with electric valves and so far it has been easier to run control wires than bundles of hose. The downside is lack of proportional control. But how many times do you need to feather the speed on a blade movement. I've done both direct switch and relay driven. Direct switch is simpler, but need larger amperage switches. Relay is slightly more complicated, but allows the use of smaller control wiring / switches.

Just a thought

Tom,

That's really a great idea! When we were working on Thundercat, Scott liked the idea of a joystick electronically controlled valve. In my mind I could picture something like an F-16 side-stick... with a whole lot of dollar signs associated with it! Since we had the factory valve and it worked, I just wanted to stick with that. And that's what we did, though we completely re-plumbed the hydraulic system.

In the Snowzilla thread I mentioned how my snowcat buddy is a genius at bending tube, and then had a picture of a fuel line with a few simple bends. Some readers of that post might think "What's so tough about that"? Well, as the saying goes "You ain't seen nothing yet"! I think Thundercat has something like 23 different lines between steering lines, six-way blade lines, hydraulic winch lines, various cooler lines, and fuel lines, and not a one is as simple as that fuel line in the picture. At some point I'll post some photos and I think they do a much better job of illustrating Scott's talent.

We have a John Deere valve already purchased for Snowzilla, and as far as making a few blades for interested forum members we really don't want to get into the hydraulic valve and plumbing aspects of the project. There certainly are other options for a valve, but we'd rather let others explore those, and let them decide what works best for their application, assuming they don't want the factory style valve.

But I very much appreciate your suggestions as alternative ways to solve the problem.
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Here is the TEE handle mechanism for a six way blade as used on John Deere 450C crawler. It bolts onto a straight three spool valve. The handle is out of photo top.

I'm amazed you had a photo of that! Thank you!

That's looks like the factory Tucker valve linkage! I've got to say the person who designed that system was one smart cookie. I look at the complexity of the various parts, and how well it all works, and I feel like a mental midget!

Here are some photos:

View from the right side. Tucker installs a shield on the top and that is removed in the photo.
DSC01172.jpeg

Top view (shield also removed).

DSC01175.jpeg

Shows the shield and the T-Handle.

DSC01177.jpeg

A view from the left side.

HPIM0261.jpg
 

Logger1965

Active member
GOLD Site Supporter
Well now you got all that figured out where are you going to mount the camera so you can see where and what the blade is doing out and down on front?
 

Blackfoot Tucker

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
It's been a month and there have been no serious inquiries. The offer to produce blades for others is therefore terminated. We'll make the one for Snowzilla, but that will be it. That project will be detailed in the Snowzilla thread.
 
Top