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Law Dogs view on snow cats

Teeoster

New member
So just out of curiosity who has encountered issues using their machines with the Law man?

I have intentions of putting trail stickers on my 1404 and running down the occasional snowmobile trail. I wonder if there are width limitations on snowmachines like there is on atv's?

:letitsnow:
 

GYPSY

Member
In Wyoming you purchase a yearly snow machine not snowmobile permit. Only good for machines who's original design was for snow. The only problem you will have on designated snowmobile trails is the safety concern of operating at a much slower speed than a snowmobile and getting run into. I always run my snow cat with the lights on and may even put a stobe light on. I stay off the designated snowmobile trails. They think the trails are for them only.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
In some states there are width limits on the snowmobile trails, the limits can vary by state. I think those are pretty common in the northeast, and perhaps Pennsylvania. I have no clue about your Michigan laws but I've been invited up to Michigan with my Snow Trac so if you find out what the Michigan limits are, if they even have any, please post them!

BTW, I've never run mine on a snowmobile trail, I just run the rurual roads and the farm fields.
 

Teeoster

New member
Ok, Did a little research on the DNR web site. DNR is Michigander for Department of Natural Resources. No mention of width, or speed, ect. Mostly your average rules about drinking and carrying firearms and road riding. And yes some Michiganders have been known to do all three at once:respect:

So my plan would be to put both a liscense plate and a snowmobile sticker set on it. Here are a few excerpts from the rules?

""Snowmobile" means any motor-driven vehicle designed for travel primarily on snow or ice of a type that utilizes sled-type runners or skis, an endless belt tread, or any combination of these or other similar means of contact with the surface upon which it is operated, but is not a vehicle that must be registered under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923."

"A snowmobile shall not be operated unless the owner first obtains a certificate of registration, registration decal and an trail permit sticker. The certificate of registration must accompany the snowmobile and be made available for inspection upon demand by a peace officer."

I kind of think the first listing would create somewhat of a grey area for me on the last line?? What do you think?

Here is a link to the complete rule section:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_14824-32293--,00.html

And Bob, don't worry we have plenty of 2 tracks, fire lanes and even an abandoned ski resort to cruise on in the area I'm think about for February. If we hit the right weekend there is even a vintage snowmobile show we could enter in:)

John
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
Teeoster said:
So my plan would be to put both a license plate and a snowmobile sticker set on it. Here are a few excerpts from the rules?

""Snowmobile" means any motor-driven vehicle designed for travel primarily on snow or ice of a type that utilizes sled-type runners or skis, an endless belt tread, or any combination of these or other similar means of contact with the surface upon which it is operated, but is not a vehicle that must be registered under the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.1 to 257.923."

"A snowmobile shall not be operated unless the owner first obtains a certificate of registration, registration decal and an trail permit sticker. The certificate of registration must accompany the snowmobile and be made available for inspection upon demand by a peace officer."

I kind of think the first listing would create somewhat of a gray area for me on the last line?? What do you think?

Here is a link to the complete rule section:

http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10365_14824-32293--,00.html
John

By putting a motor vehicle license plate on the snow cat you may create your own gray area and problems. The wording of the snowmobile license sticker laws and registration should suffice if you are going to operate by all the existing snowmobile rules and laws.

Our WY laws are similar to yours. If you license as an ATV or motor vehicle you are allowed only on existing trails or roads that allow ATV or motor vehicle usage. Snowmobiles are permitted to operate cross country from 11-15 to 4-15 yearly on our public lands in WY. ATV trails and snowmobile trails have width restrictions for ATVs but not for snowmobile usage as best that I have been able to interpret in the wording of the laws.

I would register, license, and operate by all the snowmobile rules and as a snowmobile until they make it illegal or determine otherwise by the law that you are not a snowmobile

I was checked once last year on the Big Horn National Forest by the local law enforcement officer (a nice gal). She was a little confused and knew that I had done trail grooming in the past.:confused2: She thought I was doing grooming with my own cat and stopped to visit as she was checking snowmobile license stickers in the area that day. My wife pointed out that we had a snowmobile sticker and were completely legal parked by the road closed sign :whistle: and with snow cat tracks coming off the hill behind the sign.:yum: Pretty hard to say they were not my tracks!!!!!!

Each year that I purchase the snowmobile stickers for our snow cats the license selling agent is puzzled and has a dumb look on his face by the model names given (LMC, VMC and ect.) but he writes up the stickers without any hesitation.

I recommend not using the groomed and popular snowmobile trail systems in any state or eventually the snow cats will be banned from all usage in public lands. One accident can change the law in any state if someone wants it changed or realizes we are actually out there.
:my2cents: :myopinion: :letitsnow:
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
mtntopper said:
I would register, license, and operate by all the snowmobile rules and as a snowmobile until they make it illegal or determine otherwise by the law that you are not a snowmobile
:my2cents: :myopinion: :letitsnow:
Bill, I have to agree with you on this issue. In Michigan I would register it as a snowmobile.

As I probably operate the ONLY snowcat in the state of Indiana, mine has become a simple curiosity and I don't have any license or registration on it at all. The police all know about it and just let me play. I've actually driven it on the roads with not a problem here.

But then again Indiana is a strange state.

We have almost no snowmobile trails to speak of, and no real tourism use of snowmobiles. I claim my Snow Trac as an agricultural vehicle (tractor) :whistle: in the State of Indiana, and that is how I imported it when I brought it over from England. Under the state of Indiana Agricultural laws, I can pretty much go anywhere I want, any time of the year, on or off road, as long as I have a SMV sign on the rear and keep my lights on. But then again, Indiana is an AG friendly state and according to my paperwork from the US Customs Service, I have a tractor.
 

Lyndon

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: WA, ORE, IDA, Mont & Wy.

The above mentioned states all recognized my Washington Snowmobile registration. So did Yellowstone Park and Crater Lake National Monument. For the most part The National Forest Service didn't care, but the National Park Service was a whole nuther deal! In various places that groups of cabin owners used their snow cat to access their cabins, the National Forest service here in Washington, exempted the owners from any type of registration. I recomend against registering as an ATV. This can create all kinds of problems. Also licensing your cat as anything other than a snow mobile may prohibit you from running it some places. People that operate licensing beaureas and agencies usually don't know how to handel SnowCats. Your best bet is to register it as a snow mobile. In Washington this past year they created a special category of Antique Snow Mobiles. Earl and I got #'s 20, 21, & 24. I guess there are not many "Vintage" snow machines out there. After calling and going to lots of places what I found worked best was not to put too much emphisis on the fact that your "Snowmobile" was the size of a tank, weighed 2 tons and had multiple tracks. The people at licensing agencies may panic and want you to get a ruling from the state because they don't know what to do. For what ever reason the forest rangers usually have a far more positive attitude toward Snow Cat owners than they do Snowmobile riders. It seems to have to do with drunken snowmobile operators going 100+MPH and the forestry guys having to clean up the mess.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
Additonal info for the legal use of over the snow vehicles from the federal register of November 9th 2005.

Copied from the federal register for National Forest Service rules: http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/final.pdf

Definition for ‘‘snowmobile.’’
Comment.
Some respondents suggested that the definition for snowmobile in the proposed rule be broadened to include other over-snow vehicles, such as tracked ATVs and grooming machines.

Response.
The proposed rule defined snowmobile as ‘‘A motor vehicle that is designed exclusively for use over snow and that runs on a track or track and/or a ski or skis. ’’ This definition encompassed large vehicles, such as snow cats, not commonly referred to as snowmobiles. However, the proposed definition excluded vehicles capable of conversion to over-snow use, such as ATVs with tracks. Since the proposed definition refers only to the vehicle itself, and not to its use, the proposed rule could be read to allow use of snowmobiles in the absence of snow off routes and outside areas designated for motor vehicle use. The Department believes that over-snow use by tracked vehicles has similar environmental effects, regardless of whether the vehicle is designed exclusively for use over snow.
Consequently, the final rule replaces the exemption and definition for
snowmobiles with an exemption and definition for over-snow vehicles
(which would include snowmobiles).

The final rule also removes the word ‘‘exclusively’’ from the definition, while adding ‘‘while in use over snow,’’ so that the final definition for over-snow vehicle includes motor vehicles that are designed for use over snow and that run on a track or track and/or a ski or skis, while in use over snow. Use by oversnow vehicles may be allowed, restricted, or prohibited under part 212, subpart C.




 

Teeoster

New member
I have encountered minor troubles with the local DNR officers running my sleds down some of the plowed secondary roads. This being the reason for wanting to have both a plate and snowmobile stickers.

Since I know it would be a simple matter to register my 1404 as a road vehicle and a snowmobile in Michigan I have devised a very unique solution for our unique vehicles.

How about a "James Bond" style retractable liscense plate. Drop it down into view when cruizing down the road and retract it out of sight when using the offical snowmobile trail system:cool2:

John
 

Lyndon

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Re: Plates on ST4's

The people over at Westeraskmachiner must have been thinking of this too. All the Snow Tracs and Trac & Snow Masters had 1) Brake Lights, 2) Turn Signals, 3) License Plate Light and were designed to be "Street Leagle". They were regestired in the scandinavian countries.
 

Eric L

Member
Site Supporter
This isn't the only site having this discussion...

interestingly, my '65 Tucker has off highway registration (called a "Green Sticker" here in CA), but has an old and currently unused front license plate bracket that has obviously been there for a long time... It was a Department of Water Resources rig at one time.

Eric
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Eric, welcome to the Forums. Is the "Green Sticker" something that is unique to California?

BTW, did you ever find out any additonal history about your unit? I did send you some contact information a while back for someone at the Tucker Sno-Cat company. Were you able to get any information from them?
 

Eric L

Member
Site Supporter
B_Skurka said:
Eric, welcome to the Forums. Is the "Green Sticker" something that is unique to California?

BTW, did you ever find out any additonal history about your unit? I did send you some contact information a while back for someone at the Tucker Sno-Cat company. Were you able to get any information from them?

I saw a reply re: someone at Tucker, I asked if you had a specific contact... if you sent me anything after that, I didn't get it.

Yeah, California has a special tag for off highway vehicles. "green" is good all the time, "Red" is for newer motocross bikes that dont meet emmissions requirements...they have restrictions on when they can operate in some areas.

Thanks,
Eric
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Eric,
I did send you a specific name and email address at Tucker Sno Cat corporation. I will send you a Private Message here (you can find your private messages in the upper right part of the screen). I have the contact information at my office so I will send you a PM with the information tomorrow via this website's PM feature.
 

kewx

New member
I discussed this issue on the phone with the Michigan DNR. They said register as a sled and put on a trail sticker. That's all you need.
Off trail,.. you don't or wouldn't need anything.
Fact is that these Tuckers are pretty slow and cruising down the trail is not what they are really for. A 20 mile ride will take half a day if you're lucky. Using the trail for a short run to access something else is perfectly legal.

But hey, what would I know?kw
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
kewx said:
I discussed this issue on the phone with the Michigan DNR. They said register as a sled and put on a trail sticker.
Kurt, do you have any idea about out-of-state users who visit Michigan and what the regulations are for tourists? As I live in Indiana near the Michigan border, it would be easy for me to trailer my Snow Trac across the border.
  • Do I have to register my Snow Trac with Michigan to use trails up there?
  • And if I stay off the trails, do I have to register it with the Michigan DNR?
  • Do you have an address or phone number of someone I would need to contact at the DNR for a registration or out of state premit?
 

Teeoster

New member
Bob,

All you need is an over the counter trail permit. I'll pick one up for you when I register my sleds this fall. So your planning on coming up eh? I ordered 5' of snow for the annual vintage sled show for mid February. Any other snow Catters want to plan a Lower Michigan meet this woulod be a sweet time to take over the town of Waters and have some fun.

Johnny
 

kewx

New member
B_Skurka said:
Kurt, do you have any idea about out-of-state users who visit Michigan and what the regulations are for tourists? As I live in Indiana near the Michigan border, it would be easy for me to trailer my Snow Trac across the border.
  • Do I have to register my Snow Trac with Michigan to use trails up there?
  • And if I stay off the trails, do I have to register it with the Michigan DNR?
  • Do you have an address or phone number of someone I would need to contact at the DNR for a registration or out of state premit?
////////////////////////

Register in your home state. Buy a Michigan trail sticker. That is all that is required according to my phone conversation with the Michigan DNR. My machines will likely be regstered in Illinois. I may go for Michigan but have not decided. At this time, none of my stuff is registered because none have been used on the trail. There is a Michigan DNR website, however, I contacted the Crystal Falls Field office. Website is www.michigan.gov/dnr.
Where are you at in Indiana?
kw
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
kewx said:
Where are you at in Indiana?
kw
Almost on the Indiana/Illinois state line, about 8 miles south east of Beecher, IL or about 5 miles west of Lowell, IN
 

Eric L

Member
Site Supporter
Eric L said:
This isn't the only site having this discussion...

interestingly, my '65 Tucker has off highway registration (called a "Green Sticker" here in CA), but has an old and currently unused front license plate bracket that has obviously been there for a long time... It was a Department of Water Resources rig at one time.

Eric

FYI...

I spotted a couple different (ex state owned) rigs with a CA license plate on them lately. It seems that the state owned machines get plates for record keeping purposes.
 

allessence

New member
In MA, from what I understand:
Short story, A freind of mine was pulled over by a State trooper on a main road on a lawn tractor for unregistered, un-insured motor vehical and was issued a citation for 500.00 with a court date. (would affect regular car insurance rates if found quilty)

He went to court and with information in hand (any motor vehical in the commomwealth with a speed documented as being less than 25mph can be legally ran on any state or private road without any type of permit, insurance or registration).

He was found not quilty. I would carry a copy of the law in the cat just to intervine in case a trooper pulled me over Troopers can have a one track mind.

Of course this is MA and they may have changed this law as ticketing and registering anything is a major money maker.
 

Snowcat Operations

Active member
SUPER Site Supporter
Nevada has no off highway registration of any kind. No Snowmobile plates, No atv regs nothing. If there is a road then its legal to drive on it. (off road trail that is)
 

yellowpine O.T.S.

New member
I have a letter from the county and the US Forest Service that I operate in (Valley county,ID) that says they can not restrict anyone from operating on the non plowed roads/"Road closed by snow no county plowing beyond this point". In the letter it states that if someone wants to drive on the snow as far as they can thats up to them and there is nothing legaly that the county can do to stop it even if they are damaging the groomed for snowmobile trails but that they the owner/operator are responsible for the cost of recovery of that vehicle if it becomes stuck, It stems out of the road fuel tax that keeps the county from prohibiting/regulating over the snow vehicles.

I would feel better about having a snowmobile sticker on my snowcats but thus far have been denied as they want to see a title, I will look into it further and then there is the insurance thing it has my insurance man rolling his eyes at me,he hopes the umbrella policy I carry would cover an accident but is looking further into it, does anyone have any ideas or insight on insurance?
 
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