• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

Betting AGAINST the stock market?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I know we have some people who dabble in the stock market here so I am looking for some insight from other investors.

I've been betting against the US Dollar as a currency and have been playing the gold market with GLD . . . and winning. I've been betting against the US Dollar by dabbling small amounts in both the Australian and the Canadian Dollars with FXA and FXC respectively . . . and winning.

None of that bodes well for the USA, for our currency, or for our markets in general.

There is a play that I am considering. Its an Ultra-Short bet against the S&P 500 index. The fund's ticker symbol is SDS and its been going down for the better part of the year, largely because the S&P 500 index has been going up. So looking at the charts it seems like investing in SDS (or any similar play) would be like throwing money into the wind during a tornado with the same likelihood of ever getting it back.

SDS >>> http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/sds?source=refreshed

But I really wonder if our markets are not simply in a "dead cat bounce" with a bunch of, as Alan Greenspan once described it, irrational exuberance propping it up? Yes, I do see some earnings figures that are modest, some even beating expectations. Yes, I do see some logic for the start of a recovery but I don't see real signs of a real recovery. Perhaps a JOBLESS recovery is in the cards for us, with the possibility of jobs starting to appear sometime in 2010 (or later). So I am really wondering if we will see ANOTHER crash of our markets.

Am I being over pessimistic?

DISCLAIMER:: I have $0.00 invested in any short play betting against the stock market, I don't know if now is the correct time to invest against the market and, in fact don't think we are there quite yet.
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
I don't know about an 'ultra-short' gamble. The market is pretty random short term.

But I think you are right longer term. 1 to 2 years out I don't think even present S&P levels are justified. I see several factors:

Broad unemployment means little buying power.

Fewer refi loans cuts buying power.

Nobody is competing to buy stocks 'before the market goes up again'.

The boomer generation needs their cash to live on so they have less excess funds to invest for the future. This implies that P/E ratios will decline, with fewer people chasing stocks.

Aging boomers will be net sellers as they start to live on retirement savings.

As a consequence of there being less buying power than in recent years, corporate income will not return to recent levels. The combination of lower earnings and lower P/E ratios predicts level or lower stock prices.

Summary: short term the market is a riskier gamble compared to past boom periods. Longer term, returns may be no better than simple savings, or even negative over several years. But for someone with retirement still many years off, investing in the S&P or even a world index is probably still the most effective way to accumulate retirement savings, short of opening one's own business. Just expect a bumpy ride.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
. . .investing in the S&P or even a world index is probably still the most effective way to accumulate . . .
I think you and I are of very similar thinking on this, up to this point. I'm not sure that the world index is a very good bet. On the other hand and Emerging Markets index may be a good option because those are the markets that seem to actually be doing well despite slowdowns in the developed markets/nations. I think the S&P, for the next 2 years, is a Las Vegas gamble.
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
SKF is another. Down to about 24 bucks now; has been as high as 300. They arew eighted on finacials, thus, their high was when banks were failing, their low, is now that banks appear to be ok.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
SKF is another. Down to about 24 bucks now; has been as high as 300. They arew eighted on finacials, thus, their high was when banks were failing, their low, is now that banks appear to be ok.
I think DaveNay was tracking and maybe investing in SKF a quite a while back. I also looked at that one too.

But as for banks appearing to be OK, I think that is a false appearance. I think a lot of bad commercial paper is out there and the banks are going to take another hit to their bottom lines when those loans fail.
 

waybomb

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
The banks are not ok. There's going to be another crash soon. That's why I mentioned this one.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
The banks are not ok. There's going to be another crash soon. That's why I mentioned this one.

Agreed. Commercial paper, commercial real estate and more housing problems.

SKF tracks the financial market.
SDS tracks the S&P 500.

Two different ways to bet against the recovery.
 

Bamby

New member
Some food for thought, writer is implying wealth including stocks may or will be destroyed on purpose to reduce legacy costs. He could be right.......

Capitalism and Retirement



Did you ever wonder about where the real wealth is going to come from to fund all of our retirements? To pay for the cashing out of all those IRAs, Keoghs and all the investment portfolios upon which our pensions depend?


In theory, the answer is pretty clear. We save for retirement, our savings provide monies for companies and the whole economy to grow, and in return, we get our ownership share of a larger economy in our golden years. Sounds great! But, is that really how it’s going to work?



A Powerful But Indifferent Force Of Destruction


I’ll start by saying that I think capitalism is one of the most powerful forces in the history of mankind, and it has played a key role in why you’re able to read articles from the Internet on your computer, instead of being a poor, subsistence farmer scratching out an impoverished lifestyle. That said, I think that it needs to be clearly understood that capitalism is not something to be worshipped, but rather is a tool with its uses.


Call it a power tool because of the extraordinary impact it has had on us all. Now, as an analogy, a power saw is indifferent about whether you build a masterpiece with it, or whether it takes your hand off. Capitalism is a tool that is completely indifferent as to whether it makes a particular individual rich, lifts the standard of living for an entire nation - or destroys every shred of financial security previously enjoyed by millions of people. So the key concept is tool usage, which requires tool understanding.


A popular way of explaining how capitalism works, is that it is the process of creative destruction. The key word there is destruction: it rewards the efficient, and destroys the inefficient. Keeping it simple, let’s say we have six companies in ferocious competition for sales and products. One company finds a way to build products cheaper. Another company finds a way to build better products for the same price. Another company comes up with a whole new product altogether that better serves some consumers needs.


The other three companies build overpriced products of lesser quality that no longer serve consumer needs. In other words, they are inefficient, and are driven out business, while the three efficient and innovative companies prosper.


The efficient are rewarded handsomely. The inefficient are ruthlessly destroyed. Society as a whole gets more and better goods at lower costs. That is the heart of capitalism.


Retirement Dreams


OK, that was a very basic review of capitalism; now let’s talk about our retirements. I’ll start by sharing with you my vision of retirement.
I want to be able live in a comfortable house, enjoy good meals, travel, and at least occasionally, enjoy some of the finer things in life. And I don’t want to have to work anymore.



In other words, I want to be able to consume without producing.
Now what is consuming without producing? It equals inefficiency. Pretty much pure inefficiency. That’s right, from a societal perspective, my retirement hope and dream is to become remarkably inefficient. Or to at least to have that option if I need it, because I can’t work anymore due to health reasons.



What makes my desire for inefficiency more interesting, is that I’m one of about 78 million Baby Boomers in the US, and about four million of us a year (on average) are hoping to become very inefficient over the next 19 years.


Historic Inefficiencies


Now, let me suggest to you that expensive promises to 78 million Boomers represent one of the largest inefficiencies in the financial history of mankind.



Let me also suggest that every company with defined benefits promised to its pensioners is an inefficiency.



Let me suggest that every company with health care benefits promised to retired workers is an inefficiency.


Let me suggest that when future wealth is created, it will be much more profitable for those talented individuals involved, to develop new products and new technologies through new companies that don’t have to pay most of the cash, and most of the profits, to millions of legacy investors who invested their own cash decades before. Cash that was spent long ago.
Indeed, let me suggest that taking market share and profits from legacy corporations that are burdened with retiree pension and health care inefficiencies, as well as with retiree shareholders and retiree bondholders, will be one of the most profitable business strategies of the coming decades. For the destruction of the inefficient is the very basis of capitalism.



Let me finally suggest that it is entirely possible that we may be entering a generation long bear market with our current equities and corporate bonds, and that this is entirely compatible with a generation long bull market in new equities, as well as the equities of companies that used to have Boomer inefficiencies but don’t any more, because the bankruptcy courts have cleared out the legacy shareholders and bondholders, while slashing the amounts that need to be paid to retirees.


The bottom line is that whatever companies are not dragged down by Boomer pensions, Boomer health care plans, and Boomer shareholders and bondholders will be at an enormous competitive advantage. And those people who recognize and exploit that differential in the upcoming years are going to find arbitrage opportunities in numerous ways, you can count on that. Because this process of breaking impossible promises is going to be creating huge amounts of new wealth even as it destroys even more old paper wealth.


Not Just Theory



It isn’t just theory that anytime you have too many retirees with too good of a deal, you’ve eventually got a company in trouble.
Look at the auto industry.
Look at the airline industry.
Look at the state of California and the massive crisis with their pensions, where a whole lot of retirees are seeking the simple justice of getting what was promised to them, so that they can enjoy a modest, secure standard of living in retirement. Such reasonable expectations – but so inefficient to meet.


This process is only just getting started, and will be building every year, even as more Boomers retire.

What Is The Correct Answer?


So what’s the correct answer to the question posed at the start of this article? Will capitalism (A) save your retirement, or (B) destroy your retirement?



I believe that the correct answer is (C), both of the above. I believe that for people who blindly follow the conventional wisdom, capitalism is going to shred many millions of retirement dreams, with the worst of the damage still to come. For many other people, capitalism is the hope for their retirement, it is what will allow them to recover and then increase their retirement savings.

For capitalism is neither inherently good nor evil, but rather it’s a tool, and the operative question is one of tool usage.



Source
 
Top