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  #1  
Old 10-12-2007, 09:57 AM
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Default Scum sucking bastards

Everyone says that if you oppose the war in Iraq, you are disrespecting our soldiers. Apparently, even the military commanders who sent the soldiers into combat don't respect them.

Writing their orders for one day less than needed to be eligible for education benefits is just plain wrong.
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National Guard Troops Denied Benefits After Longest Deployment Of Iraq War
by makeprofilelink("John Aravosis (DC)"); John Aravosis (DC) 10/11/2007 11:10:00 AM ET
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this post here: CommentmyCount('4667185473707627083');s (80) digg it reddit FARK Link

FURTHER UPDATE: Cong Tim Walz is all over this.

UPDATE: Read the end of this article. The military appears to be kind of claiming that they've fixed the problem, but it sounds like they're claiming it will be fixed, but it may not be fixed yet. It doesn't read like they're 100% being honest.

Oh my God. The Bush administration sent these guys to fight for 729 days instead of 730 days, because had they been sent for 730 days they'd have gotten education benefits. My God. Okay, Democrats, you've been handed another opportunity to blow up in the GOP's face their lack of respect for our troops. Let's see what you do with this. [crickets]

From WCSH6.com, Minnesota:
When they came home from Iraq, 2,600 members of the Minnesota National Guard had been deployed longer than any other ground combat unit. The tour lasted 22 months and had been extended as part of President Bush's surge.

Casco Bay Ford

1st Lt. Jon Anderson said he never expected to come home to this: A government refusing to pay education benefits he says he should have earned under the GI bill.

"It's pretty much a slap in the face," Anderson said. "I think it was a scheme to save money, personally. I think it was a leadership failure by the senior Washington leadership... once again failing the soldiers."

Anderson's orders, and the orders of 1,161 other Minnesota guard members, were written for 729 days.

Had they been written for 730 days, just one day more, the soldiers would receive those benefits to pay for school.

"Which would be allowing the soldiers an extra $500 to $800 a month," Anderson said.
Apparently they screwed Iowans too.
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  #2  
Old 10-12-2007, 10:09 AM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I saw a news blip on this just the other day. The newscaster said this was being taken care of and that the servicemen would get all the benefits offered to full time enlisted personal.
I can't remember where I saw it, and could not find 'proof' of this via google.
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Old 10-12-2007, 10:36 AM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I'm sorry but this sounds like leftist alarmist horseshit to me. Are you trying to say the Bush administration set out intentionally to deny education benefits to National Guard troops? Come on, man! There's got to be more to this story than what is being told here.

This sounds like a political premature ejaculation to me. :stroke:
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Old 10-12-2007, 06:54 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

Whether it was leftist horsheshit or not - somebody should have been watching out for these guys and kept them in-country for one more stinkin' day so they could get a little bit more for their time over there. At the very least they are getting screwed because somebody wasn't paying attention - and didn't care enough to pay attention.

I have read extensively about Civil War, WW1 and WW2 - and some about Vietnam -and it is always the lower echelons that take a screwing. The officers and such always get theirs - but the so-called foot soldiers always get the short end of the stick. And as I have said on this site a number of times - I have been against the Iraq war since before it was even started - and it is because of things just like this that I took that position. There is nothing new here - this has happened to our real fighting men after every war.

Have you ever heard about the WWI vets who camped out in Washington during the depression because they wanted to collect a bonus that was promised to them for serving in WW1?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

There are tons of movies about what happened to Vietnam vets after that war.

If you watched the HBO series "Band of Brothers" there was that one guy who went a little nuts - then got shot in the neck - and died in a hospital a few years after the war.

WW2 only seems nice and clean to us now - 62 years later, because all of the bent and broken people it produced are long since dead and gone. Vietnam is starting to seem a little bit more sanitized now to the general public - because the bent and broken soldiers from that war are disappearing too.

The point is not that these guys are being used up and spit out - they aren't. But little things like this are just typical of what happens to our soldiers during a war. So I don't think you can sit back and say that it was not expected - if you had read the history of previous wars you would see that this is just typical. This is part of the price that gets paid for getting in the war in the first place.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:16 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I dont know how many of you guys have been in the service, but... that is the way things work. When I first went in the service I was a long hair dope smoking kid. Marine Corps boot camp kinda takes that out of you but at first we all fight the system. Then I decided to learn about it. You go from not being able to get orders to somewhere to figuring out how to get those orders to somewhere you want to go. Dont want to go to OKI put a rolls of quarters in your cargo pocket when you weigh in, too fat to get transfer, when the window closes, take the quarters out of your pockets and bingo, you are out of the fat platoon and still in SoCal. There were rules for everything, just find the order. Also I cant remember exactly how it was but I think the first and last day of service are counted as full days, even if it is just a second. It was undoubtly some dummy not paying attention. I truly beleive with a few exceptions military people are loyal to their own. as a rule there is no up side of screwing our brothers in arms out of something. No bonuses for the upper brass. Just so damn many rules.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:26 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

JD,

My father was a WW2 vet and broke his back during his enlistment (correction: he was drafted). He was told he would never walk again, but he beat the odds. If anyone should have gotten 100% disability, it was him. He only got 30% and died of pancreatic cancer just before he recieved his upgrade, so my mom got screwed and got didly squat as a result, and she got a letter from the VA to send back the last check they sent after he died. So let me tell you something, pal...you can't tell me diddly-shit about vets getting screwed that I do not already know.

I've seen guys drawing 100% military disability, full military retirement (the 100% disability makes the retirement tax free) and playing 18 holes of golf every day that it is not raining. They know how to play the VA game.

Conversley, I've seen guys living in constant pain draw 100% as well, but I've also seen this same class of vet getting screwed because they did not know how to deal with the VA application process, or simply gave up.

Had I wanted to, I could have automatically drawn 10% disability for a service related injury, but I chose not to because I do not believe it is right or moral to request disability payments when one is not truly disabled and deplete limited resources for a vet who deserves it.

The point here:

The article that Davenay posted, it is pure political hyperbole. Shit happens in the red tape and regulations of the federal government. Be anti-war all you want, but try to be at least honest and not use something like this to attempt to say that the Bush administration intentionally shortened these soldiers tours in order to avoid paying education benefits. Shit happens, documents get lost, people get lost, some low level VA manager makes a mistake and people get screwed as a result, and in this case, it was fixed fairly quickly as the VA system goes. Sometimes it takes a lot of due dilligence to get the beneifts you were promised. It sucks, but that's the way it is with the VA.

Make your anti-war case on some other more credible foundation besides this one, please.

Last edited by Cityboy; 10-12-2007 at 07:49 PM.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2007, 07:40 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

Geez . . . all my grandfather got from WWII was killed.


I suspect that order was written for 729 days by someone who was told to cut costs. Sometimes orders are taken too literally especially in the government. If this doesn't get sorted out then make a story about it.
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Old 10-12-2007, 07:58 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

You guys still dont get it. Nobody cares about cost in the military nor most of the govt. I was in a meeting today we were talking about how to use the money while we have it. If we dont use it we dont get it next year. All of us at the VA try to do the best we can for every Vet every day. You guys really dont know waht the hell you are talking about. Now politicians are a different story.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:00 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I'll give you a case in point about lying cheating bastards running portions of our military. My son is very patriotic and made it his life's goal to serve our country in the U.S. Army. I went with him to each and every meeting with recruiters. I wrote down all important points and got copies of everything.

Guess what?! Yes, the scum sucking bastards will flat out lie to get young men and women to enlist. No maybe, no sort of, no misunderstandings; flat out lies! I spent countless hours and nearly two full months of my life to get things corrected. And then, it still would not have happened if it were not for a full congressional inquiry brought about by my congressman after seeing all the evidence. My son is still enlisted in the U.S. Army and is attending a military college despite knowing he was lied to in order to get him to enlist. He feels that strong about defending our country and allowing us to live the lives we enjoy.

So, of all people, don't ever give me any shit when I say that I know for a fact that our military officials will tell most any lie to meet recruiting goals. This absolutely disgusts me and my respect for many or our military commanders will never be the same. I have to wonder how many low ranking members of our military are serving our country because they were lured into enlisting under false pretenses. The scum sucking bastards are those in charge of meeting recruitment goals! I see no reason these people are protected from prosecution. We do not need to lie, steal and cheat in order to get members for our military. If things are that desperate, bring back the draft; don't lie to people!!
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:13 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

Yea right. I have signed more enlistment contracts than most people. I never said everone in the service were angles, but, honor is an important value that at least till the mid 90's was held in high esteem. If something is written in the contract that binds the government at least as much as the person. recruiters are under a lot of pressure. I dunno, people who fight the "system" lose. Military people do not lie as a matter of course. Been around them all my life and just know a few, very damn few, I would not trust with my life. Frustrating trying to explain it but if you are in the service and dont get with the program you have a completely different perspective.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:30 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

All I will add is that the United States Congress gave the Army a very short time to reconsider their decision to not live up to what they promised, both verbally as well as in writing. It is apparent when a General in the Army goes up against the United States Congress, the General loses; and loses badly. I've never been a really big fan of most of our elected officials, but they made it very clear that the military will not be allowed to make very specific promises in writing and then later decide to not honor those promises but yet expect the recruit to honor their promises. I owe quite a bit to certain members of our congress. This situation was so bad that the military was forced to allow my son to un-enlist. However, my son simply opted to have the military honor their promises. He had no desire to not honor his commitment to our military. I always hear that politicians lie. I can now guarantee you, without any doubt, military officers and recruiters will also lie. I am shocked how often this actually does happen. Fortunately our politicians can completely destroy a military officer's career if they insist on lying. The concept of checks and balances was obviously a good idea. I'm not in the military, but I will tell you that, regardless of the officer's rank, they have to get with the program (as you call it) or retire dishonorably at a greatly reduced rank.
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Old 10-12-2007, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

Dargo, I cant believe you just defended Congress' honor over the military. I did see many times while on active duty in hte Marine Corps the Corps made like the airlines and overbooked certain aviation MOS's. It was incredibley important they had enough people graduate from the school to man the planes. They wrote the MOS guarentee into the contract and allowed the Marine to completely renegotiate their contrat or go home. But it was needs of the Corps. Anyway, I guess we just have completely diffent perspectives. Hope every thing works out for your son.
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Old 10-13-2007, 10:59 AM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dargo View Post
I owe quite a bit to certain members of our congress. This situation was so bad that the military was forced to allow my son to un-enlist. However, my son simply opted to have the military honor their promises. He had no desire to not honor his commitment to our military. I always hear that politicians lie. I can now guarantee you, without any doubt, military officers and recruiters will also lie. I am shocked how often this actually does happen. Fortunately our politicians can completely destroy a military officer's career if they insist on lying. The concept of checks and balances was obviously a good idea. I'm not in the military, but I will tell you that, regardless of the officer's rank, they have to get with the program (as you call it) or retire dishonorably at a greatly reduced rank.
This kind of situation really pisses me off. I am clearly going to be speculating in my opinion of what happened here, and I may piss you off, Dargo, but so be it. Here is what I think happened:

1. Your son obviously desired to join the Army in some particular Military Occupational Specialty (MOS).

2. You made a decision to become involved in his enlistment process in order to attempt to put stipulations and conditions on a military institution whose mission is to defend the United States of America against all enemies, foriegn or domestic. Yes, the mission IS THAT SIMPLE.

3. The recruiter, under pressure from you, made promises outside his scope of authority that the army was likely not authorized to honor.

4. When you found out that the recruiter, again under pressure from you, and under pressure from recruiting quota's over promised your likely unrealistic expectations, you got pissed and called in political favors to have the contract overturned.

5. Your son joined an orginization whose primary job is armed combat and the support thereof in the full realization that death could result, and that national needs could indeed require him to perform a function outside of the MOS he initially signed up for. Go back and read the standard enlistment forms again if you doubt this.

6. If your son does not successfully complete his program of study, the Army has the right to make him a basic infantryman, or to discharge him under less than ideal conditions.

7. The military is not a private sector company or a college where parents can interject when they think their little "Johnny" is being wrongfully treated badly.You decided to interject yourself, and apparently you were somehow successful, though you son clearly understands the risks involved, hence his decision to move forward with his enlistment, though you were unwilling to accept them.

There was probably some deception on the part of the recruiter here, but I also think that you are attempting to manipulate an armed service to perform like a private business. It does not work that way, and the best thing to do in a situation like this is to not enlist in the first place, rather than to move forward with unrealistic expectations. Had you actually served in the military, you would understand this.
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Old 10-13-2007, 11:16 AM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

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Originally Posted by mak2 View Post
You guys still dont get it. Nobody cares about cost in the military nor most of the govt. I was in a meeting today we were talking about how to use the money while we have it. If we dont use it we dont get it next year. All of us at the VA try to do the best we can for every Vet every day. You guys really dont know waht the hell you are talking about. Now politicians are a different story.
I damned well know what I have seen the last twenty years with WW2 and Vietnam vets. I understand some things have changed at the VA in recent years as a result of the high death rate of our WW2 vets. There are not as many of them as there used to be, and there is a gap now and you guys are better able to take care of the new vets as the massive WW2 generation passes.

When I was a teenager, prior to my enlistment in the USMC, I went to the VA hospital in Atlanta many times with my father and wittnessed conditions there with my own eyes. I wittnessed hundreds of WW2 vets who were in their late 50's & 60's then, lined up in the halls in their wheel chairs, waiting outside,waiting in lobbies and begging for help. My father died in that same hospital in 1987. Do not frigging tell me I do not know what I'm talking about, OK?

Last edited by Cityboy; 10-13-2007 at 12:13 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-13-2007, 11:49 AM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I understand what you are thinking CB, but you completely missed. Absolutely no additional demands or requests were made by me or my son. However, when someone, i.e. the United States Army, puts something in writing that not only involves a person's college education, their career, and their life, they are going to abide by promises made. Period. End of story. If it pisses people or organizations off that I make them abide by promises they made, so be it!

When a Lt. Col. tells me in a smart ass tone "well, sue us"; knowing full well that you cannot sue the United States Army, it rather pisses me off. Further, guess what? When I'm pissed off, I don't go away; especially when it is clear for God and everyone to see that I've been lied to.

It is that, my friend, the military is still not allowed to do in this country in order to reach recruitment goals. If you want a draft, fine, have a draft. When it is a volunteer military and you entice people to enlist based on known lies, it is not only the ability of our Congress to step in, it is their duty. It would be no different at all if an officer of the Army came up to you and said, we absolutely need someone who looks exactly like you for a mission that is vital to our nation's security. And, if you do accept this mission, we'll give you two million dollars and health care for life. All you have to do is help out your country and sign this form saying you'll serve your country for two years. Being a good patriotic person, knowing that our military needs you in particular because you fit a precise profile, you agree and sign on for your special mission. Then, after you do so, the military says "Oh, by the way, we were only kidding about that two million dollars and health care for life. You will get nothing, absolutely nothing, but you are now required to leave your family and serve your country as specified in the form you signed."

So tell me, are you going to be lame and take deal that without fighting?! If you are, then you and I see life in completely different ways.
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:06 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

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Originally Posted by Dargo View Post
Yes, the scum sucking bastards will flat out lie to get young men and women to enlist. No maybe, no sort of, no misunderstandings; flat out lies!
I find it hard to believe that you didn't know this. Nothing new.

What I do think some would find amazing is the percentage of recruiters getting busted for having sex with those females they are trying to enlist.
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Old 10-13-2007, 12:09 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

In a nutshell, what was your son promised, and what was delivered?

My point is that sometimes people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to military service. As I said, I was speculating as to your situation because I do not know the facts, and I am making the assumption that there may have been unrealistic promises made in response to possible unrealistic expectations.
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Old 10-13-2007, 01:29 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

I want to know if they can write orders for a certain number of days, why cant they write a law that ends this war and get it done with. Seems like this would so easy to do, since hey............it is only a law.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:01 PM
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I find it hard to believe that you didn't know this. Nothing new.
Guilty as charged. To be honest, I generally passed off people who claimed that recruiters lied as people who changed their mind etc. I was wrong.
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Old 10-13-2007, 02:11 PM
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Default Re: Scum sucking bastards

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In a nutshell, what was your son promised, and what was delivered?
I can't be very specific, because some very, very high ranking military people became some rather low ranking military people. Intentionally being vague, it has to do with written promises for specific dollar amounts and college educations. There were no misunderstandings, only "well, we decided not to do that; (after the fact) and you have no recourse" sort of things.

I've also found that some career military officers have a real problem dealing with civilians. They have been accustomed for everyone in the room squatting when they say shit for too many years. Were I in the military, I’d expect to squat when ranking officers said shit. Unfortunately, or fortunately, you decide, I’m not in the military and I do not respond well to people who are dead ass wrong shouting at me and telling me I can go to hell and the issue will not be discussed further. Things did get worked out as they were originally promised before I began the all out battle from my side. There was plenty more I was prepared to do that I didn't have to. I'm fine with that.
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