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Central HVAC Install Price

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
I have received this quote to install a central HVAC unit in our house. I know regional differences account for a lot, but I just want to get the feeling you guys have about this.

Carrier, American Standard, or Tempstar brand.
13 SEER, R410A
3.5 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
5 year parts, 1 year labor, 5 year compressor warranty

All ductwork installed in the attic. This will be a split system with the air handler in the attic.

$8,255
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
That seems a bit high but I don't know about running the ductwork.

2 years ago, it cost me about $4600 for a 5-ton heat pump, the air handler (with strips...), thermostat, installation and a little ductwork. It was never really broken down for me but I think he gave me the installation at the cost of paying the owners employees only (the owner didn't charge me for his time to install and he did about 1/2 of the work).
 

Cityboy

Banned
I can't see it from Oklahoma, but that does not seem unreasonable to me. Take the time to get at least two more bids, preferably a total of 5. The best 13 SEER brands will have a thermostatic expansion valve (TXV) metering device, though some manufacturers still claim to achieve 13 SEER with a fixed metering device.

Remember, installation is critical, especially your duct work. Better to spend a little more up front for a quality designed metal duct system than to try and save with a flex duct installation.
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Take the time to get at least two more bids, preferably a total of 5.

Thanks for this advice.

Better to spend a little more up front for a quality designed metal duct system than to try and save with a flex duct installation.

I had not thought about this and didn't ask this guy what kind of ducts he would be putting in. What is the big benefit of metal vs flex?
 

Cityboy

Banned
Flex duct is more resistant to airflow than is metal duct. The duct system must be installed so that it can provide the required Cubic Feet per Minute (CFM) of air volume in order to attain the BTUH rating of the equipment. Also, every fitting added to a duct run increases resistance to airflow and must be accounted for in system design.

In other words, if the duct system is not sized properly, your equipment will not perform per data plate capacity; ie: you paid for 3.5 tons but your actual BTUH output might only be 3 tons.

Your systems actual capacity can be determined with this formula:

BTUH = (CFM/specific volume) x enthalpy differental x 60 minutes

-or-

BTUH = 4.5 x CFM x enthalpy differental. (4.5 is a constant in this short cut)

I show you this formula in order to demonstrate there is a way to prove your systems actual output versus data plate stated capacity, and therby determining proper system installation. A competent contractor will know how to achieve this.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
A couple of questions.

Was the three quotes given by the same contractor?

Was a load calculation done for the house?

Is variable speed included in the quote?

If variable speed isn't included in the quote, was it offered?

Ductwork (if done with sheet metal) lined or wrapped?

I'm surprised that the Carrier quote didn't include a 10 year compressor wrty. All units that you've mentioned are the base model from the manufacturer, however with Carrier and their base model, for a nominal fee, you could extend the compressor wrty for an additional five years, even though it's the same base model unit. Keep in mind, it's the labor that will kill you down the road, not the parts.

In your previous thread you've mentioned about the lack of insulation. If a load calculation wasn't done, I'd be leary of the contractor. They should of at least asked you if you plan on upgrading the insulation. With a load done on the house, you will be able to figure out how many CFM's are needed for each individual room, thus being able to figure out the correct size of ductwork and runs needed for each room (on that note, how many returns? this should/will also be a variable in the quote given). You can take the same size house and vary in your insulation and other variables, and your load for heating and cooling can change substantially. This will effect the performance of your equipment. One reason why a load calculation is a must.
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
A couple of questions.
Was the three quotes given by the same contractor?
Was a load calculation done for the house?
Is variable speed included in the quote?
If variable speed isn't included in the quote, was it offered?
Ductwork (if done with sheet metal) lined or wrapped?

In your previous thread you've mentioned about the lack of insulation. If a load calculation wasn't done, I'd be leary of the contractor. They should of at least asked you if you plan on upgrading the insulation.

Only one quote was given. He said they can get me any of the three brands for the same cost; my choice.
I assume he was doing a load calculation. He measured the outside dimensions, measured each room, measured the windows, measured the closets, looked in the attic at the insulation, etc. He then punched on a calculator and a sheet of paper then we went on to another subject. I didn't hear anthing about the 3.5 ton unit until I saw it written on the quote.
He didn't mention variable speed; what is that?
Again, I will have to ask about the ductwork. He didn't specify type.

We did talk about the insulation. I told him that I had blown in what is there myself and he said it would be best to add some more once the system is installed. I assume he took that into consideration when he sized the system.
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
Actually the price seems reasonable. In fact maybe a tad bit low. Follow DZ's and Cityboy's recommendations/questions. They have some good advice there. Also make sure your air handler is hung from the rafters and not sitting on the rafters. An extra drain pan for safety is nice also. I would also make sure you have a variable drive air handler so your moving air all the time throughout the duct system so you don't get moisture building up in it.


murph
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Actually the price seems reasonable.

Thanks Murph.
Looking at my price and also at Brian's price, it would appear that running the ductwork is adding a few thousand dollars to my price. Does this sound right?

Edit: I guess in two years the prices of units themselves may have also risen.
 
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dzalphakilo

Banned
Common sense would tell you that all three name brands per his quote are not the same "cost" to the contractor.

An analogy I use for variable speed (although not technically correct, it does make it easier to understand for people) is to think of variable speed as a 10 speed bike that autamatically shifts each gear for you, with non-variable speed being a one speed bike (no gears). Try riding each of those bikes (per my analogy) up and down a hill. Which bike will work more effective?

With variable speed, your system will be much less noisey (sp?), most times you won't even know the sytem is running, and in some cases, you'll increase your efficiency the HVAC system. It should also help you with humidity control as well (I won't bore you with the details).

I'm a little perplexed. If the guy is that good to do a manual J (heat load calculation) on paper that quick, I'm surprsied he didn't offer you a "good, better, best" option on equipment (with the "good" being a secondary, price competitive line that he'd carry that would be the least expensive to offer). For example, 13 SEER non variable speed, 14 SEER non variable speed and 14 or 16 SEER variable speed. You don't want to overwhelm the homeowner with options, but you want to let them know there are options and why there is a price difference. The contractor is also giving you the systems in R410A (bottom line, in heating mode, you'll get warmer air out of your registers compared to an R22 system), which is another reason why I don't understand why he didn't offer you variable speed.

The five year compressor on the American Standard is their "AmeriStar" line (labor for a compressor changeout will run you anywhere between $500 to $1300 in most areas).

Personally, I'd stay away from the those low end lines from "premium line manfacturers". My own opinion is that there is a "better value" equipment line for the same price (another reason why to offer a secondary, less expensive model that is "more bang for the buck").

I've been to all three manufacturing facilities that you've been quoted on, my point being that each line you been offered a quote on is "good" equipment, however, knowing what I know, I'd offer you more and let you know what the price difference is and why.

I'll also add, if he didn't tell you what t-stat he was putting in, go with a Honeywell touch screen t-stat (TH832 series). You won't be dissapointed.
 

Cityboy

Banned
Get advice from other places in addition to what you get here at FF.

Go to this site: HVAC-Talk

This site has HVAC techs from all over the nation who work in the field every day and can advise you about their first hand experiences with just about every brand and SEER equipment

Give the HVAC techs there all your information so they can help, however, DO NOT -repeat- DO NOT ask for pricing. Rule #1 at HVAC-Talk is no pricing questions. The reason is that a correct quote can only be given by a competent contractor who physically comes to your home and actually performs the calculations required to properly size your system to fit your individual home.

Decide what you want and what you want to pay. Don't allow someone to talk you into a mega-SEER, mega-variable, bells and whistles unit that will take 20+ years to get a return on your dollars invested unless you like bells and whistles and are willing to spend mega-bucks to get it. This is a big purchase. Take your time and educate yourself thoroughly before deciding.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
Decide what you want and what you want to pay. Don't allow someone to talk you into a mega-SEER, mega-variable, bells and whistles unit that will take 20+ years to get a return on your dollars invested unless you like bells and whistles and are willing to spend mega-bucks to get it. This is a big purchase. Take your time and educate yourself thoroughly before deciding.

For the price difference on some equipment lines, you could expect a payback within five years by going to a 14 SEER from a 13 SEER, no problem at all.

Don't tell me your in the pro forums on that site CB?
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
Thanks Murph.
Looking at my price and also at Brian's price, it would appear that running the ductwork is adding a few thousand dollars to my price. Does this sound right?

Edit: I guess in two years the prices of units themselves may have also risen.


The 2k for the duct sounds about right. DZ mentioned looking at higher SEER ratings. I would get quotes for the higher ratings and then compare the savings. BE careful sometimes going higher is not in your best interest. Also get with your utility companies and find out what rebates are available right now and add that in your calculations.

murph
 

Cityboy

Banned
For the price difference on some equipment lines, you could expect a payback within five years by going to a 14 SEER from a 13 SEER, no problem at all.

Possibly, dependent upon installation, but 14 SEER is as high as I would go for my own system based upon my field experience. Over 14 SEER, the timeline for ROI increases with the greater equipment costs.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
Possibly, dependent upon installation, but 14 SEER is as high as I would go for my own system based upon my field experience. Over 14 SEER, the timeline for ROI increases with the greater equipment costs.

On that we agree 110%

My point is that 14 SEER wasn't even offered.

I think you'll also agree that depending on the price point, variable speed is worth every penny. Again, apparently it wasn't even offered.

I'm not talking about 18 SEER or over, however it seems that within the HVAC industry, on average, a lot of homeowners are not being informed as to what's "out there".

Take the Honeywell IAQ T-stat. A lot of possibility as far as accessory upgrades down the road if the homeowner wishes.
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
The prices of the higher SEER equipment has dropped a lot since the new mandate of 13 is here. Jumping from 13 to 15 is not too bad in some places and with rebates sometimes it ends up being about the same price. The higher ones were not offered and Buckle has to investigate.


murph
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
Just make sure the guy who does the job didn't do this one. I'm sure it's now a classic.

redneck_car_air_conditioner.jpg
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Thanks for all the advice. It appears that the first company to give me a quote was a little high compared to the rest. Three more quotes have come in:


Goodman
13 SEER, R410A
3.5 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
10 year parts, 1 year labor, 10 year compressor warranty
All metal ductwork.
$5,000


Armstrong
13 SEER, R410A
3 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
5 year parts, 1 year labor, 10 year compressor warranty
All metal ductwork.
$5,800


Concord
13 SEER, R410A
3 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
5 year parts, 1 year labor, 5 year compressor warranty
All metal ductwork.
$5,500


I didn't ask any of them about variable speed so I am going to call and find out how much that will add. It's interesting that none of the four contractors mentioned variable speed. DZ stated that variable speed should help with humidity control. We run a dehumidifier all the time in our house and still have lots of moisture so I don't know why they wouldn't have mentioned it.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Those prices sound much better.

I didn't ask any of them about variable speed so I am going to call and find out how much that will add.
If variable speed isn't included and to incorporate seems cost prohibitive, check the energy consumption. Most variable speed motors use less electricity.

Before I put my new unit in, I just ran my furnace fan (at it's normal, high speed) 24x7 for years.
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
Before I put my new unit in, I just ran my furnace fan (at it's normal, high speed) 24x7 for years.

Pardon my ignorance, but since I have never had central air I don't know the answer to this question. When you say you ran the furnace fan all the time, does that mean that the switch on the thermostat was set to "on" as opposed to "auto?"
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
I called the Goodman guy back to get a price on a 3 ton since all the other contractors have suggested a 3 ton except the first one. The Goodman guy had suggested a 3 ton but I told him I wanted a price for the 3.5 ton. I was mistaken about the refrigerant also, it is R22. He now has given me a quote for both ends of the spectrum. I like the Goodman guy the best and will probably go with one of these. What are some opinions on these?

Goodman
13 SEER, R22
Multi Speed
3 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
10 year parts, 1 year labor, 10 year compressor warranty
All metal ductwork.
$4,500


Goodman
16 SEER, R410A
Variable Speed
3 ton Heat Pump with 10KW heat strips for emergency use.
Programmable Thermostat
10 year parts, 1 year labor, 10 year compressor warranty
All metal ductwork.
$6,000
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
That $1500 difference has me leaning towards the 13 SEER unit. My guess is it would take close to 10 years to recoup that $1500 if you went with the 16 SEER.
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
That $1500 difference has me leaning towards the 13 SEER unit.

Even though the 13 SEER isn't available with variable speed? I'm thinking since my house is not sealed up good whatever unit I pick will be running more to keep the house cool/warm. Since the 16 SEER is more effecient I would think my savings would be greater since it will be running so much. I may be wrong.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Actually, I saw multi speed and in my glance assumed it was variable.

Please elaborate on what the differences are between the "Multi Speed" on the 13 and the "Variable Speed" on the 16?

I'm thinking/guessing:
The multi is a 2 speed. Slow running when no heat/ac demand and high speed when the furnace/heatpump kicks on.

The variable speed makes a gradual speed increase from its slow speed to full speed. This is a bit more efficient.

Now, we need the HVAC guys back for this part...
Which is a better setup/value?
The 16 SEER 3 ton unit for $6000
The 13 SEER 3.5 ton unit for $5000
 

buckle97

New member
SUPER Site Supporter
From what I understand, which may be incorrect, multi speed means the installer sets the speed of the system and that is what speed it will run at anytime it kicks on.
I think I was confused about variable speed. I thought variable speed was what kept the air circulating throughout the house constantly. Looking back over the posts in this thread and the other one, it seems BC has a setting on his system for the blower to run 24x7.
 

bczoom

Super Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
I think I was confused about variable speed. I thought variable speed was what kept the air circulating throughout the house constantly. Looking back over the posts in this thread and the other one, it seems BC has a setting on his system for the blower to run 24x7.
Yes. Mine runs 24/7 at a slow speed. When the heat/air comes on, the fan motor slowly increases (over about 20-30 seconds) to get up to full speed.
 

dzalphakilo

Banned
Usually a non variable speed motor is a three speed motor.

BC, the variable speed motor on most furnaces will use 2/3 less energy.

With variable speed, you can also over come some static pressure issues due to existing duct design that you wouldn't have with a non variable speed (however, variable speed should not be used as a band aid for poorly designed duct systems).

Is the 16 SEER unit a two stage compressor? Usually a two stage Copeland will run 67/100 depending on the load requirement in the house. On first stage, with variable speed (with lower CFMs of air over your coil), you'll reach a comfort level due to humidity removal that you would never obtain with a non variable speed system. Bottom line, you can set your t-stat at a higher temperature and still feel as comfortable comapred to a lower setting with higher humidity (72 degrees with 55 RH in the house feels less comfortable to the average human than say 75 degrees at 43 RH). One the first stage with the compressor (on a two stage compressor), you also use less energy than a single stage compressor. With a two stage compressor, you may run it on single stage up to 80% of the time the equipment is in use, if sized properly.

Usually, a two stage compressor is on 16 SEER equipment or higher. Thus, you pay more for a 16 SEER unit due to other variables than just the SEER rating of the equipment.

Usually a good HVAC contractor can explain the differences and why the price difference.

Personally (IMO) once you go over 14 SEER, you won't see the payback (Or ROI:D) due to the increase in price of equipment, however, you will get a higher comfort level. Manufacturers don't sell their higher end equipment on "bells and whistles", they sell them on comfort (which is a fact).

I do however wonder why one system is 3 tons (16 SEER) and the 13 SEER is 3.5 tons (I'm assuming for the same house?). With Copeland two stage compressors, you don't have 1/2 ton increments (sp?). Usually you go a size higher than lower and let the compressor run on first stage to meet the load requirements than going a size lower, and run the risk of not being able to meet your load requirements for the house.

A general rule of thumb from information obtained from numerous power companies, from 13 to 14 SEER, you'll roughly save $7 per month on your electric bill (other variables could have an affect on that number).

On a side note, keep in mind, anyone now a days who just puts in an R22 system, after 2010, R22 units will no longer be made. Currently, R22 just took another massive price increase and we're still two years away from one of the federal mandates. Supply and demand. R22 goes up in price, R410A goes down in price. By 2030, all prodcution of R22 will cease (and production gets limited in the meantime during different timeframes set forth by the goverment).
 
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Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
it seems BC has a setting on his system for the blower to run 24x7.

All thermostats I've seen have a 'fan' switch. You can set it to on or auto. Auto only comes on when the furnance or A/C is on. The On option would have the fan running all the time. It sounds like if you had a variable speed fan you might be more tempted to leave the fan on all the time.

It sounds like the only reason you need a variable speed one is so you can leave the fan on and have the it slow down when the furnace or a/c is not running.
 

Cowboyjg

Country Club Member
Site Supporter
Just a couple of things.

The Multi speed is a manual speed setting determined at install and adjustable as you choose where as a variable speed system is an eletronic device operating based on system preassure that automatically varies the fan speed based on flow needed.

The most important thing here (IMHO) is that if your system runs all the time or even most of the time, and I don't mean just the fan, I doesn't really matter what seer rating you have the system will never run effeciantly. There is no recovery time as the unit never shuts off. You run the risk of freeze ups and more.

I guess you perceive this as BTN (better than nothing), and maybe you're right. Without doing other things though, I believe you are throwing away your hard earned cash.

Either way. Best of luck and I hope it works for you.
 
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