power and water to pole building

Doc · Jan 22, 2006

I'm wanting to run power to my pole building. While I'm at it I figured I'd run water to it. So, I have a few questions:

Can water and electric be run in the same ditch? How?

What size wire would be best to run? I do not have anything 220 at this time, and eventually plan to add a 3 bay garage to run a compressor and welder. In the year or two before I add the garage, it would be nice to have a least one 220 outlet in the pole barn. Otherwise I'd be running a battery charger, lights, power tools etc.

I plan to run a couple phone lines also.

Any thoughts on what else I might need to consider?

OhioTC18 · Jan 22, 2006

Doc said:
I'm wanting to run power to my pole building. While I'm at it I figured I'd run water to it. So, I have a few questions:

Can water and electric be run in the same ditch? How?

What size wire would be best to run? I do not have anything 220 at this time, and eventually plan to add a 3 bay garage to run a compressor and welder. In the year or two before I add the garage, it would be nice to have a least one 220 outlet in the pole barn. Otherwise I'd be running a battery charger, lights, power tools etc.

I plan to run a couple phone lines also.

Any thoughts on what else I might need to consider?

Doc,
Yep you can run them in the same ditch. I would have some separation between pipes though. Lay the water in first, then sand, then electric. While you're doing it, please run 220 out there. Some day you'll need it.
As far as what size wire? Tell me what you think in your wildest dreams that you'd do out there ( mind out of the gutter I don't want to know those types of things). Plan for the future and do it once.

DaveNay · Jan 22, 2006

Doc said:
Can water and electric be run in the same ditch? How?

Wow...I could swear I have seen well pipe that has the conductors right on the same spool....just unroll it, and done.

Doc · Jan 22, 2006

OhioTC18 said:
Doc,
Yep you can run them in the same ditch. I would have some separation between pipes though. Lay the water in first, then sand, then electric. While you're doing it, please run 220 out there. Some day you'll need it.
As far as what size wire? Tell me what you think in your wildest dreams that you'd do out there ( mind out of the gutter I don't want to know those types of things). Plan for the future and do it once.

The building is 70 by 30. I'd like overhead lights, outlets all around. Might use it for painting a car. So we'd have a compressor out there. Might want to run a heater during winter, and a few power tools at the same time, but thats about it. ...I'd rather over do it so that i only do it once. So we're on the same page there.

Jim_S · Jan 22, 2006

I just put in electricity and water to my pole barn site. IT's about 75 feet from the house.

We dug a trench with a backhoe and set a post at the site. I ran 1" black pvc for water, 8-3 in conduit for electric, and a cat 5, one 3 pair phone line, and a piece of RG6 for tv in another conduit. I put a freeze proof faucet on the post and two separate junction boxes. When I build the pole barn the post will be in the front corner.

We may put an a/c in the tack room so I ran a little larger wire than normally needed. (the welder is in the garage). The size wire depends on both the load you plan and the distance from the main panel.

The water line is in the middle of the trench and the conduits are on each side.

Jim

Glenn9643 · Jan 22, 2006

Run your water in regular sch 40 pvc (white) pipe.
Run your electric in pvc conduit (gray). I would figure for wire heavy enough for a 100amp breaker box at the shop (that's what I did anyhow). You'll need a 1-1/2 - 2" conduit probably.
Run telephone and any other computer networking/TV coax, etc. through a smaller pvc conduit. 1" will probably work for this, and even though you can get multiple lines off one line run for the phone I would run two (just in case). A couple of good grade coaxial cable, and depending on distance a couple of network cables for computers. Someone else may chime in if I'm wrong, but I believe I recall that you're limited to about 100' on the networking cables without some sort of "booster" to offset signal loss. As said above, separate the conduits in the ditch. I've recommended more wiring than you actually need in the telephone/network cable/coax conduit, but if something were to fry one the backup might save you from digging another trench and the wire is relatively cheap.
You didn't indicate the distance from your home or power source, and that is important info.
When I did this for my shop (about 100' from the house) I also provided for 3-way switches to control outdoor lighting around the shop. That way I could turn the lighting on from my back porch or at the shop as needed. This could be in another gray pvc conduit (3/4"). Using the gray conduit pvc will help you to know which has water and which has electronics/electricity. The different sizes of the conduit can guide you to what's in each in the future should you get to digging...

OhioTC18 · Jan 22, 2006

Doc,
Minimum 100A for what you listed. Is there a possiblity of a new drop to the building from the power company?

Doc · Jan 22, 2006

Not sure how far it is. I'd guess 180' since I can reach my boat to hook up a charger with 225' (or 250') of cord (not sure which).

Good ideas. I like the idea of turning off the lights from the house and running cable and cat5 ...but I might be to far away for that.

Glenn9643 · Jan 22, 2006

Doc said:
Not sure how far it is. I'd guess 180' since I can reach my boat to hook up a charger with 225' (or 250') of cord (not sure which).

Good ideas. I like the idea of turning off the lights from the house and running cable and cat5 ...but I might be to far away for that.

Like I said, I'm not sure about the distance limitations for the networking, but there may be workarounds. Dave can probably give some good answers for that. While you're planning try to make it best it can be for you when you actually do it. The distance will have a bearing on the size of electrical wire required. It might be cheaper on that end to just have a separate meter setup? Something to look into, but would require another check every month.

DaveNay · Jan 22, 2006

Glenn9643 said:
Dave can probably give some good answers for that.

Wireless.

Spiffy1 · Jan 22, 2006

Never measured it, but I set up a wireless connection between the M&FIL's house and S&BIL's house.
With just the cheap antenas that came with the router and PCI card - and both indoors at that - they have a pretty fast connection even though the recieving end only calls it "25%". Come summer, they want me to bury some CAT5, but I'm thinking a couple outdoor anteneas would be even better:
no digging or worrying about the burried lines and/or other physical or electrical interferances.

DaveNay · Jan 22, 2006

Geeky1 said:
Never measured it, but I set up a wireless connection between the M&FIL's house and S&BIL's house.
With just the cheap antenas that came with the router and PCI card - and both indoors at that - they have a pretty fast connection even though the recieving end only calls it "25%". Come summer, they want me to bury some CAT5, but I'm thinking a couple outdoor anteneas would be even better:
no digging or worrying about the burried lines and/or other physical or electrical interferances.

My neighbor across the road is connected to my house with a point to point 802.11b wireless connection. The distance is almost 1/3 mile using consumer equipment (d-link & linksys).

Dargo · Jan 22, 2006

I ran 0000 wire inside a 4" conduit for electricity. It wasn't cheap, but I do not really have any drop in power and my lights don't go out when my compressor kicks on with my welder or plasma cutter going. I did use the 1" black one piece water line. A friend was doing work for a neighboring city and I used that material. Without going into the story as to why, I can tell you that it is extremely strong. I also have a 2" conduit going out to the barn that carries 2 cat 5 cables and plenty of room for other cables as the need may arise. I found that cat 5 cables are far superior for telephone than the standard phone wires. I re-wired my house phone wires with cat 5 a couple of years ago when I built my pool house. Besides superior wires, you have 3 spare sets of wires for other lines or just in case...

I did run my gas line in a separate trench. I'm told that it's not a good idea (besides against code here) to have gas and electric in the same trench. Good luck!!

Spiffy1 · Jan 22, 2006

DaveNay said:
My neighbor across the road is connected to my house with a point to point 802.11b wireless connection. The distance is almost 1/3 mile using consumer equipment (d-link & linksys).

What kind of reception does he get?
Stock anteneas? Ever try the Outdoor ones?
D-link on both; I'm thinking it's currently set up 802.11G mode, but don't recall b being any stronger.

Thanks Dave!

bczoom · Jan 23, 2006

Doc,

The previous posters pretty much covered it.
For the networking, I have gone as far as 250' with cat-5. At that distance, just make sure you get the pins in the correct position for the twisted pairs. Straight through was causing some issues.

I would also put some string or something in the conduit at the same times so you can pull something else in the future.

SimS · Jan 23, 2006

Doc;

I'm pretty sure the max distance for Cat 5 is 100 meters. I don't know how far the wireless stuff goes, but I imagine quite a bit more.

SimS

Junkman · Jan 23, 2006

how far is that in feet and inches???????

Spiffy1 · Jan 23, 2006

328ft
and an inch; and a few thousandths!

With the SuperBowl coming up, let's just say:
Goal post to goal post! or maybe: 100yards - good and strong

Doc · Jan 24, 2006

Dargo said:
I ran 0000 wire inside a 4" conduit for electricity.

How big around is 0000 wire?
What size wire would need for 100 amp service?
Would I need two plus ground or what?

johnday · Jan 24, 2006

Doc said:
How big around is 0000 wire?
What size wire would need for 100 amp service?
Would I need two plus ground or what?

Doc, #2 wire is good for 100 amps, but you have to figure voltage drop also. I think the distance you're wanting to go, you'd be better off with #1 wire. Remember, the larger the cross section of the wire, the less resistance, therefore less voltage drop. I had a reference on the 'puter somewhere, but can't find it now, that showed how to figure voltage drop.
Yes, you would need 2 grounds, no less than 6' apart, and bonded to each other, as well as the grounding busbar in the subpanel.
4/0 wire is pretty bloody big, with 100 amp service you sure don't need to go that big.
Hopefully Jerry will jump in and keep you safe, NEVER take chances with that there lecturk. :tiphat:

OhioTC18 · Jan 24, 2006

Doc,
At 180' you're looking at a Voltage Drop of 4.1% with #2 AL and a full load of 100A. Not a problem. You'll probably never pull a full 100A at any one time....ever.
You could "get by" with 2 hots and a grounded conductor, but in MY mind you'd be better off with 2 hots, a grounded conductor and a grounding conductor. You'll still need a gorunding electrode (driven rod) at the out building. Whatever you choose to do will depend on whether you have a metallic water line back to the house, or any other metallic path back to the house.

Doc · Jan 24, 2006

I was planning to run 1" black plastic pipe for water line. I'll be running past an electic pole that is between my house and my pole buildling.
No other metalic path that I can think of.
Are you saying I should run aluminum wire #2 w/ 4 leads? Is it cheaper than copper or better than copper for some reason?

OhioTC18 · Jan 24, 2006

Doc said:
I was planning to run 1" black plastic pipe for water line. I'll be running past an electic pole that is between my house and my pole buildling.
No other metalic path that I can think of.
Are you saying I should run aluminum wire #2 w/ 4 leads? Is it cheaper than copper or better than copper for some reason?

Copper might be a bit better, but right now, Aluminum is much cheaper. I would run 4 if it was me, but 3 will "get you by". That is if the wires are coming from the house. This pole, what is it for?

Doc · Jan 24, 2006

It is our electric service. I considered an additional drop off of the pole but decided not to because of the added expense & two electric bills to deal with. They were going to charge me a higher rate for the electric for some reason.

OhioTC18 · Jan 24, 2006

They were going to charge you a commercial rate for the second meter, common practice.

Doc · Jan 24, 2006

Due to the power pole and the driveway, it might be 200' from my power panel to the pole buildings 100 amp service. Would I still use #2 aluminum for that distance also?

Dargo · Jan 24, 2006

Just got in and saw the posts. Yes, the 4/0 wire would be overkill for 100 amp service. It was a major ordeal getting that size wire through a 4" conduit! I would highly recommend copper wire even though it costs more. With the different projects I've done (adding on and adding buildings), all of the electricians have said "you can use aluminum wire, but I'd go with copper if it were me". Here is a link to where State Farm insurance has proven results where aluminum causes issues http://www.statefarm.com/consumer/vhouse/articles/aluminum.htm
Here is another site with a few hundred links as to why copper wiring is superior to aluminum
http://www.inspect-ny.com/aluminum.htm

The electrical inspector for my city told me that when figuring the size of wire, if you opt to go with aluminum you have to take the size of copper wire needed and multiply it by 1.6 for the proper aluminum size. Then he still said that he wouldn't recommend it. I'm not an electrician, but every inspector and highly recommended electrician I've spoken with has warned against using aluminum wiring.

Good luck!

OhioTC18 · Jan 24, 2006

Brent,
I prefer copper as well, but aluminum in these sizes are used every day with out issues. The old problems of loose connections, oxidized connections has for the most part be remedied lately.
The smaller sizes of aluminum caused a multitude of problems, even responsible for deaths. But, would I hesitate to use it in sizes #2 and up? Nope, not at all. Actually my service is 4/0 AL. It was there when I bought the house. Do I worry, no.

Doc · Jan 24, 2006

Thanks guys, I appreciate the insights.

power and water to pole building

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