Vent-less gas heaters pros and cons

Doc · Nov 29, 2010

I am very interested in using vent-less gas heaters for heating my basement. I'm just now starting a basement finish project and am trying to decide on what to get, how to accomplish heating. One thing my wife wants is a fireplace. I've looked at the vent-less gas logs and that would keep her happy, and since it would not be on that often, would be a good application for a vent-less gas heater. Right?

I see the wall mounted vent-less gas heaters in hardware stores and they are thermostat controlled and could handle the chore of heating the basement (I think), but I've seen warnings about having these heaters in a bedroom and if they are not good in a bedroom are they okay just outside of one, I sure would not think so.

Then Murph posts this tidbit in another thread about heaters, it had to do with thermostats being able to be set in the mid 30's just to keep the temp above freezing:

thcri said:
Yeah there is stats that go down that low. However I would not use them with the higher efficiency heaters. Remember we now take more heat out of the gas and it has a tendency to condensate with the lower return temperatures from the space. This condensate is an acid and will eat your thin heat exchanger. Also the stats that go that low are not typically set back thermostats.

Older heaters less than 65% go for it.

Murph, or anyone:
What is the affect of this condensate on the living area?
Why do some states outlaw these heaters while some allow them?
What are the pros and cons to using a vent-less gas space heater?

thcri · Nov 29, 2010

Doc said:
Then Murph posts this tidbit in another thread about heaters, it had to do with thermostats being able to be set in the mid 30's just to keep the temp above freezing:

Yeah there is stats that go down that low. However I would not use them with the higher efficiency heaters. Remember we now take more heat out of the gas and it has a tendency to condensate with the lower return temperatures from the space. This condensate is an acid and will eat your thin heat exchanger. Also the stats that go that low are not typically set back thermostats.

Older heaters less than 65% go for it.

Doc and others, let me clarify what I meant above. I am stating "Not to run High Efficiency heaters at the lower space temps of 35 degrees". This is not because of the thermostat but because the heater is not designed to run in the lower temperature surroundings. Has really nothing to do with the thermostat. Older less efficient units this is not as much of a problem.

In your bathroom or lower level you will not be allowing the temperatures to get down low enough to hurt the heater.

What is the affect of this condensate on the living area?

Condensation in the heater comes from the space temperature being allowed to run down too cold, not the ambient temperature so you don't need to worry about condensation.

Why do some states outlaw these heaters while some allow them?

I can't answer that. Minnesota goes by Federal Codes but each municipality can adjust. Our insurance company at one time stated in the binder that we are not insured in regards to ventless products. We don't and won't install them at all. [/QUOTE]

What are the pros and cons to using a vent-less gas space heater?

Before buying any vent less appliance get a copy of the install manual and read it complete to make sure your space meets the install/ventilating requirements. I believe you need a certain amount of cubic feet per Btu's to meet the requirements.

My opinion: For a garage or something like that were you are only in there for a certain amount of time per day and is well ventilated fine. (still would not install in my own garage) But if in an area where people are sleeping I would not under any circumstance install one.

Big Dog · Nov 29, 2010

Murph,

You don't trust the oxygen depletion safety sensor?

thcri · Nov 29, 2010

Big Dog said:
Murph,

You don't trust the oxygen depletion safety sensor?

Not so much.

Doc · Nov 29, 2010

Thanks Murph.

So, if it burns 99.9% of the gas what happens to the .1%? Does it become fumes that you end up breathing? Any question about this being a health issue?

The vent-less use all the gas for creating heat so they seem more efficient. I could put in a vented one, but vent-less sure is tempting as it so much easier to install and cheaper and I could more evenly heat the area with multiple vent-less vs one vented.

thcri · Nov 29, 2010

Here is a link that gives pros and cons. They are talking more portable but maybe the same advice.

Disadvantages

Disadvantages Of Vent Less Propane Heaters: • There needs to be some ventilation present in the area where this vent less propane heater is installed.
• Contradictory to what the name suggests, these are not 100% vent less.
• To produce heat propane needs oxygen for combustion, thus to make the device operate smoothly a proper supply of oxygen is a must.
• It increases the humidity factor.

There needs to be Ventilation and Not 100% vent less. The room has to be larger enough for proper ventilation. That is why I said get the manual first and read the installation instructions to make sure the heater fits the application.

It increases the humidity factor. That sets off a flag to me. Humidity is the result of burnt fuels. If vent less is so great and especially with the newer houses today why doesn't any of the major furnace manufactures make them. I know of none and we don't have 99.9% forced air furnaces today? The best made that I know of is about 97.3% and it has a PVC flue.

I would also think that if you surveyed heating contractors only you would get overwhelmingly results against them.

Doc · Nov 29, 2010

Interesting. Thanks Murph!!!!!

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

I think a good Toyo or Monitor heater would be much more efficient and safer.

Adillo303 · Nov 29, 2010

I am not an expert here, but, the products of combustion are Carbon dioxide and water vapor. I do not breathe either. Add the possibility of a gas leak.

Not for me.

thcri · Nov 29, 2010

Adillo303 said:
I am not an expert here, but, the products of combustion are Carbon dioxide and water vapor. I do not breathe either. Add the possibility of a gas leak.

Not for me.

Gas leaks can be associated with any system vent less or not.

Doc · Nov 29, 2010

fogtender said:
I think a good Toyo or Monitor heater would be much more efficient and safer.

What are those? I've never heard of them.

Here is what I found via google:

A Laser Vented Heater is the perfect solution for those hard to heat rooms or areas – all too common in many homes today. This is especially true in older homes and those with additions where a central heating system is just not enough. Now every problem area can be made livable. A Laser Heater provides all the comfort and convenience of a central heating in one small, efficient unit at a fraction of the cost. It is also ideal for heating summer homes, hunting cabins, and is certified for installation in mobile homes and manufactured housing.

Laser vented heater Flow
Convenient, Easy to Use
The Laser heater combines the most advanced technology with the economy of kerosene heating. It features a simplified digital control panel that displays room temperature, temperature settings, time, and error codes. With its programmable thermostat, the unit can remain in operation for up to 24 hours in a reliable, fuel-saving mode. Also available as an option is a weekly, programmable "Set-Back" timer with back-up memory (Laser 56 and 73).

Efficient and Economical
The Laser is one of the most fuel-efficient heating systems in the world today. Its special stainless steel heat exchanger carries the highest efficiency code and an 87.7% (AFUE) rating. It surpasses oil and gas systems and is much more efficient and economical than wood stoves and electric heat. You get more heat for the money than with any other heating system. The cost to operate a Toyotomi vented heating system is so economical that many owners enjoy annual savings of up to 70% over electric heating, 60% over propane heating, and 40% over traditional oil and natural gas heating systems.

Clean and Safe
A permanent mesh filter protects the circulation fan and the inside components from dust. The unit is especially safe for children and pets as its cabinet is cool to the touch. Most noteworthy is the Laser's "pipe-within-a-pipe" forced flue venting system, a unique advance in heating. The outside pipe of the venting system brings in outside air for combustion while the inner pipe exhausts all combustion by-products to the outside. The heat is distributed by a circulation fan. The result is smokeless, odorless and clean heating. The unit also features an electric surge protector and shut-off safety system.

Comfortable
The Laser's large circulation fan distributes clean heat quickly and evenly. The unit automatically regulates between low, medium and high burn modes. It turns itself off when the room temperature rises approximately 4 degrees above the desired set temperature. This maintains maximum comfort while increasing efficiency and extending the life of the unit.

Are these kerosene only? If so they won't work for me. I have natural gas and I want to use it.

I have no clue what "Laser Venting" means.

muleman · Nov 29, 2010

I would want a vented heater in a basement area unless you have a means of circulating the air through the whole house. Basements are prone to humidity problems without the extra the ventless dumps in the space. I had a ventless in an enclosed porch and it was great for that area. A friend has one in a dining room but he runs a wood stove all the time in the living room so the condensation moisture actually is a bonus. I have to run humidifiers in my place to keep from drying out the air too much.

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

Doc said:
What are those? I've never heard of them.

They either come for Natural gas/propane or heating oil versions, you can google them for more details, but they suck outside air in though a pipe and then the exhaust goes out though a smaller tube inside that one so you don't have hot parts inside to be burned on for the most part.

Here is their main websites

http://www.monitorproducts.com/

http://www.toyotomiusa.com/products/LaserVentedHeaters.php

I have two 40,000 BTU monitors that I installed in the house that kick in when the coal stove burns out or I am too lazy to stoke it up. They do a very good job, use less fuel than a conventional stove does. At the office in Anchorage, they have two Natural gas versions that do well also.

Doc · Nov 29, 2010

Thanks foggy. Good info MM.

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

Doc said:
Thanks foggy. Good info MM.

Oh, they say they burn Kerosine, but mine use #1 hearing oil and have done so for years. Down side is they need to be cleaned every few years like any other stove.

tsaw · Nov 29, 2010

Good thread.

I was wondering about them vent less heaters just last week. The sensor must me pretty reliable, since I've never heard anyone dying from one.

tommu56 · Nov 29, 2010

The only problem I have seen is a friend has a big one in his cabin and when it is first running and inside is cold there is alot of condensation all over the place once every thing warms up its ok.

I have a small blue flame one in my cabin and haven't had that problem yet but I use the wood stove for primary heat and use both to warm the place up.

tom

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

tommu56 said:
The only problem I have seen is a friend has a big one in his cabin and when it is first running and inside is cold there is alot of condensation all over the place once every thing warms up its ok.

I have a small blue flame one in my cabin and haven't had that problem yet but I use the wood stove for primary heat and use both to warm the place up.

tom

That isn't the stoves fault. I go to my cabin at -20 and start a wood fire and I get the same results, warm air on really cold stuff and I get condensation all over for a bit, and then the stuff warms up and all is nice!

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

My daughter hads two of them, one in her cabin and the rental. There was a propane system in there that was costing about two hundred a month on each cabin, and they didn't put out that much heat at -30 and colder. I installed one in each cabin, a 20,000 BTU oil fired one, and they have worked flawlessly and her fuel is about twenty five gallons a month on each cabin during the extreme cold of the winters in the -50 cold.

joec · Nov 29, 2010

I have a vent-less natural gas fireplace in my place now for 8 years with no problems. We have smoke and other alarms hard wired into the apartment that have never gone off due to the fireplace. It has however gone off due to something burning on the stove. I might add it heats the apartment better than the central system we had and have now. I got mine from Lowe's and had them install it also.

rlk · Nov 29, 2010

thcri said:
My opinion: For a garage or something like that were you are only in there for a certain amount of time per day and is well ventilated fine. (still would not install in my own garage) But if in an area where people are sleeping I would not under any circumstance install one.

I absolutely, 100% agree with thcri. Ain't no way I would have one in a bedroom, or a room next to a bedroom, or in any room without sufficient make-up air AND a CO detector.

I had rather spend a little extra money now for a vented unit, and not worry about not waking up one morning.

Bob

ps: many fireplace / gas installers in our area will not install anything that is ventless - they say there is too much liability.

fogtender · Nov 29, 2010

joec said:
I have a vent-less natural gas fireplace in my place now for 8 years with no problems. We have smoke and other alarms hard wired into the apartment that have never gone off due to the fireplace. It has however gone off due to something burning on the stove. I might add it heats the apartment better than the central system we had and have now. I got mine from Lowe's and had them install it also.

But those are more for effect than heat aren't they? They don't normally punch out the same kind of BTU's that a furnace does do they?

joec · Nov 29, 2010

Mine does. I have no idea what the BTU are but my apartment is small, 2 bedroom, 2 bath a living room, kitchen and dinning area just under 1200 sq ft. We set the thermostat to about 3 does the whole place better than the new AC with heat coils does. Now mine is located right next to the return air grill for the AC so we keep it on exhaust most of the winter months. We keep our place a smooth 75° to 77° during the winter months same as the summer.

DaveNay · Nov 29, 2010

joec said:
We keep our place a smooth 75° to 77° during the winter months...

Holy Carp! I'd be nothing but a baked lobster at that temperature during the winter! Our house is at 60° to 64° for the winter.

joec · Nov 29, 2010

Hey man I'm from Florida living in Kentucky. We only have 2 seasons there, summer and hurricane.

Vent-less gas heaters pros and cons

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