diesel electric pistenbully soon

latest news is our local washington state resort will be getting the diesel electric pistenbully .
PistenBully 600 Electric Diesel Snowcat
We’re adding a new grooming machine to our fleet, and it’s not your ordinary snowcat. It’s an electric diesel which is the most efficient and eco-friendly machine of its kind. This engine technology consumes up to 20% less fuel and emits less CO2. Crystal will be home to two of these machines next winter, the first ski area in North America to have them. One we will own, and the other will be used as a demo machine. This is just one more step towards becoming the leader in the Northwest in grooming!

The technology of Diesel- Electric must have changed?

I know Caterpillar chose not to use it in the mining trucks, and instead use a mechanical drivetrain, because they found that it was more fuel effficient.

Locomotives use Diesel-electric to save weight and space in the engine. So it must not be too inefficient either...

Going to be a learning curve, to be able to fix and maintain them, thats for sure!

Maybe we'll see one in Michgan in Febuary. Member KT4 says there is a new groomer showing up there this winter....

Regards, Kirk

they may be thinking more on pollution than cost savings.

We worked on a design years ago. Using 3phase ac motors controlled by
Frequency drives our biggest concern was water if you broke through the ice
Would the ground fault trip fast enough before the driver got fried
Weight was the second concern but having power to run your cabin once you got
There would have been sweet

JimVT said:

they may be thinking more on pollution than cost savings.

Click to expand...

I happened to be at the dealer in Maine. I want to say this rig was something like 700k or some such crazy dollar figure.

Seemed to me that this is supposed to be the one 'green machine' they park for everyone to see. Look, as us.. we're so eco friendly! Meanwhile.. 30 diesel powered cats go out every night to do the real work.

Just like when the Prius was new. All the Hollywood folks drove their big SUVs and limos to a parking lot to jump in one of a few available prius sedans to be driven into the oscars.

Diesel electric hybrid is where it's at for fuel efficiency in a car.. but it's TWO expensive technologies in a small, lightly built car. It's just too expensive.. for now!

JP

Diesel electric is just another medium to transmit energy.
Given:
You can't create or destroy energy just transform it.
Then:
as direct a conversion as possible is the key to conservation.

consider what a diesel electric car would get for Economy if you took the toxic #300 battery out of it and set it on the shop floor next to the flywheel motor, 3Phase drive and all the associated wiring and controllers.

WE used to have cars built like that. ford had a festival, GM/opal had the Geo metro.... Ect.
Hybrids reduce emmisions in stop and go or low speed traffic only.
If a prius is going the speed limit on the HWY the economy is less than ideal as the wind resistance is compounded by the extra weight. If it is towing something the economy and emissions is about equal to the smart car. (Very poor)

That electric drive whether DC (whick I would think they would use) or AC (great for regeneration) is going to be living in a harsh environment. Im sure it will be more efficient than Hydraulic systems however a MAnual transmission and brake steer would be even more efficient. (in a straight line application.) If you factor in the increased turning time the Hydro starts to make sense.

I don't want to say this is a gimmick, at best it is a bunch of engineers working on a grant to see if they can get it to work, it is old technology. Go old USA has been there and done that..... at least when a energy line blows the environment won't endure the Petroleum on the surface.

Mike on a rant.

I think this is a lot more than a gimmick... Diesel electric is a well proven drive and the initial reports listed a ( up to ) 20% efficiency gain electric over hydraulic they also listed regen power so it is a safe bet these are modern AC ( inverter motors ) units, and the idea of the units being available for portable power anywhere on the hill is very cool.

My concern / thoughts: Diesel electric has been the standard in locomotives since steam went by the side. Since the locomotives weigh some 200 + tons the weight isn't the factor. With snow cats the reverse is true. We typically want the weight be as little as possible.

With some of the Permanent magnet DC drives I've seen investigated, they have optimized the efficiency but the weight is still a factor.

Light weight, fuel efficient, low cost: You can only get two.

The spec sheets are on the PB site, ( http://www.pistenbully.com/en/products/pistenbully-600/e/datasheet.html )
it looks like the E+ is less than 500lbs heavier than a 600 polar. I agree on the weight issue for back country operations - but on hill grooming with large plow blades and heavy groomers can ride some really wide tracks to lower ground pressure.
I would like to know what the price difference is from a traditional machine?

The Caterpillar electric mining trucks have been out for around 5 yrs now. The Cat dealer I was working for did the field follow on the very first truck here in WY, at a customer site. Cat also had a truck at the proving grounds in Az. I spent a fair amount of time being involved with these trucks, not the first field follow machine but the fleet of production machines that have been in service for several years now. I'd say that first fleet of trucks are pushing around 20k hrs by now. More efficient than mechanical, as far as fuel consumption, not a chance (yet). Cheaper, absolutely not, easily double the cost of a mechanical. BUT, the availability is unbelievable, especially as Cat has gotten the bugs out and it does not take round the clock technicians to get that availability as do the mechanicals. The customers absolutely LOVE the trucks as do the operators. Coal activity has increased and the Cat electric trucks are the SH$#. Customers care little about initial cost in good times. That availability and very low tech ratio to get that availability is huge. Within the next ten years it will be autonomous electric trucks. I haven't read up on the E-PB but if PB put into the machine what Cat has, based on the customer's impression of the Cat machines, I think the E-PB would go over very well regardless of the huge sticker shock!

Cletis

Well Cat has been hooking gen sets to diesels for a very long time. I didn't know that they had finally gone that way with big dump trucks. But I am not surprised either...

Regards, Kirk

Interesting that the exhaust emissions state T3/Euromot 3A. 295kw I would think should be T4 interim but more likely T4 final compliant, guessing for the states? Would like to know more of how the system actually works. Only shows one chopper (brake). Also mentions hydrostatic drivetrain??????? 19,158 lb weight. Would like to see one up close and operate one. Would be some neat stuff going on there if the machine has the ability to turn within it's own tracks.

Cletis

I had to talk with the service tech today about starting a drained hydro pump in my canyon so I asked him.
electric only runs the drive train. the heavy lifting stuff ,tiller and blade is hydraulic .
diesel engine runs hydraulic and generator. not much of a hydraulic pump for size compared to other pistenbullies of that size.