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Old 11-12-2008, 12:08 PM
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Default Stove Pipe ???s

As usual for my questions, some weird twists: in this case litterally.

Best attempt at condensed version of story:

Last summer the FIL brought us a very nice wood stove to put in the [stand alone] garage. I bought several lenghts of 6" black pipe and a few of double wall SS to install it; and am finally getting around to it.
The garage had a stove [long before my time] piped out with a hole in the ceiling [simple ship-lap type floor on very simple attic; no inside covering of the studs on ceiling, roof, or walls] and straight through the roof (all in single wall judging from the pipes laying in the attic!). This had been shingled over and now tinned; I hate running stove pipe through ribbed tin - I successfully done it once before, but still hate trying to seal around the rib.

The attic window needs to be rebuilt anyway, so I like the concept of going through that. However, it would take a 2ft up and 2 ft over run to get from my ceiling thimble [homemade, but, I'm quite confident, safe] to the window. Now the question: AFAIK double wall isn't available in anything but T's [and maybe a 15degree angle] and straights, so I'd be throwing something like 4 Ts and a couple straights just in the attic vs. a flex on each end of a 3ft black. Does that make sense over the black? I know cheap compared to a fire, but the double wall runs about 10X the price of black so it makes one ponder. Also, I'm not sure that that much double wall twisting around is much safer than a simple run of black (I think the smallest clearance would be around 12", maybe as low as 8" at the elbow, varying up to 3' floor and ceiling and 12" to the wall). I have plenty of tin around yet so I could give the studs and wall a bit of protection, perhaps attaching tin spaced an inch or two off the studs.

Other options:
Running the black across under the ceiling, but now I have 3ft at only 1ft clearance under the ceiling on its entire run or the risk of wacking my head on hot stove pipe. Still would need additional double wall and double wall T.
Going straight out the wall either in the attic (still would have a point of clearance less than 18" on the elbow or an additional double wall T) under the ceiling, but with the size of double wall the thimble gets so big I don't relish trying to seal the siding much more than the roof.
Of course, straight out the roof.

Why must I complicate things so?
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Old 11-12-2008, 12:51 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

This is one of those DIY jobs that should always get a guy who knows what he's doing. Perhaps I'm paranoid, but I've seen some real problems.

My former next door neighbor was very careful about having his chimney cleaned. He still had a chimney fire.

A former employer built a "custom" stove. He found an old pot-belly, took it apart for refurbishing and re-built it like a show bike. It was a beautiful black and chrome thing.

The thing got so hot it peeled the paint off a black wall and 'toasted' who know how many studs.

Air really flows like water. The more the bends, then there is more the change in speed and turbulence. Things like heat, dirt and 'draw' all combine to change the stresses and strains on any component.

And of course any leak, no matter how minor, can be a danger for carbon monoxide.

No matter what your final decision and design, I'd contact a contractor who has done this type of work. After all, there's nothing like relaxing in front of a romantic cozy fire--that is, unless it's your flaming house...
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:25 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Spif....I can see the need for the insulated at the point of penetration both in the attic floor and the rebuilt window area.

If youd like a suggestion.....And this goes with the thought that there isnt anything in the garage attic that needs to be near the pipe.... once you penetrate the attic floor it's back to basic pipe to the height of the window...90....then straight to the window...and exhaust. You can take either dur-rock or hardi backer or other such material and then construct a chase around the pipe from the attic floor to the 90. Put the rock/backer on the inside face of the 2x frame. leave youself about 6" around the pipe. Be sure to come up and over the 90 some so nothing falls down inside the chase. I hope I've explained this well.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:47 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

here look around on this simpson site

http://www.duravent.com/?page=ts.php

I was just reading the other day that by code you are only aloud to make two 30 degree changes in pipe in certain installations.

Also anything running horizontal needs to have a slight pitch to it for condesation and dirt run off.

From what I have learn the straighter the better flow you will get out of your chimney.
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Old 11-12-2008, 04:53 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

is there a way to run the pipe through the side of the building, then up the outside?
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Thanks guys!

Tourist, I can't say that paranoid is a bad thing when talking about this type of thing! The FIL thought the black in the attic configuration would be fine - however, he's not an expert either, just one who's seen more stoves than I - also seen some chiminey fires too, so maybe I should see if any contractors around here are experts. Regardless though, I don't always trust experts either, so the "proof" will be a good hot load in the stove and see if the wall and ceiling pass the "touch test" over a couple hours.

One the positive is that this garage is barely "tighter" than a dog house and the stove will see use in measures of hours at a time not continous, so as long as I don't have a visible leak, I'm not worried about dying from smoke inhalation - unless the garage burns down with me in it. On the negative, for the same reasons, I don't want to loose sleep about it having hot coals in the stove yet when I come in for the night.

Changes in direction are the part slightly disturbing me on the options, which brings me to Cowboy's suggestion:

I think we're on the same page, except I hadn't thought of dur-rock - I was stuck in the box of using the tin already laying there. If my google search tells me right this brings my clearance back to the same 6" [rather than 18"] as the double wall! This configuration makes for a shorter run and more gradual and natural [continuously rising too] change in direction than double would. I'm thinking tin on each side of the "false" part of the window [this would leave room for a couple panes on top and a 2' X 2' square area on the bottom], and a thimble so it would be essentially "double thimbled" like I did the floor, not to mention the double wall pipe going through it [double outside get's me close enough to use a pre-fab support bracket, as well as it's supposed to maintain draft better - I couldn't even find a rain cap for black].

I'm going to double check that rib distance and location again too though. Straight up with double wall right from the attic floor can't be beat for clearance and draft.

Anyone else?
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:31 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by cj7 View Post
here look around on this simpson site

http://www.duravent.com/?page=ts.php

I was just reading the other day that by code you are only aloud to make two 30 degree changes in pipe in certain installations.

Also anything running horizontal needs to have a slight pitch to it for condesation and dirt run off.

From what I have learn the straighter the better flow you will get out of your chimney.
Dang I must type slow - actually I got sidetracked. I wasn't aware of the two 30 degree, that might change things - though I think I'd be within intent, I hate to have the garage burn down, and then have to fight the insurance company too.

I'll check that duravent site you linked [I think the stuff I have is Amerivent or something, I might give them a check too].

Thanks everyone!
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:35 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik View Post
is there a way to run the pipe through the side of the building, then up the outside?
The studs are in the wrong place for this to be ideal (and still maintain 18" from the walls) but a quick elbow fixes that. The big downside I was trying to avoid: the siding pitch isn't exactly friendly for the size of that double wall thimble - not too mention everytime I play with siding around here, I wind up replacing a piece and then 5 times what I thought I'd need too at that.

Certainly an option yet though! Thanks!
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:05 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

I'd still go staight up thru the roof. There's lots of new products you can use as caulking around that roof collar to seal between it and the rib roofing. As many have already said, the more bends you put in that pipe,the less draw you'll have and when weather and barametric pressure conditions are all wrong, your eyes will be burning while smoke fills the garage. If you decide to run a horizontal thru the wall, be sure to install a "tee" out side w/ a removable plug so you can push ash, etc. back to fall in the stove.
Been there,done that,
JMHO,
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:16 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by mla2ofus View Post
I'd still go staight up thru the roof. There's lots of new products you can use as caulking around that roof collar to seal between it and the rib roofing. As many have already said, the more bends you put in that pipe,the less draw you'll have and when weather and barametric pressure conditions are all wrong, your eyes will be burning while smoke fills the garage. If you decide to run a horizontal thru the wall, be sure to install a "tee" out side w/ a removable plug so you can push ash, etc. back to fall in the stove.
Been there,done that,
JMHO,
Mike
Except for the straight up option, the T on the outside is exactly what I have in mind. I looked at that rib just before reading your post - I liked it even less than I thought I did, but you're right: with a good caulk I might be making it more of an issue than it is.
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

2000 words, though the quality leaves a bit to be desired. Second look shows I'd have room for thin pane on the bottom, if worth putting in any at all.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Stove.JPG (250.0 KB, 63 views)
File Type: jpg attic.JPG (95.0 KB, 62 views)
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:33 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Just a question ??? Do you have the local fire department on speed dial?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:44 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
Just a question ??? Do you have the local fire department on speed dial?
That ugly?!

Afraid speed dial wouldn't make any difference - all volunteer, and the closest is nearly 10 miles at that; I do believe they are quite responsive regardless, but if I need to consider that question I'm doing something wrong. However, if you want to come over, I can toss a case of your favorite beverage in the snow bank and we can hose down warm spots as they or natural requirements arise.
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Old 11-12-2008, 10:29 PM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Well ,
Here's an easy way to install that new flashing without pulling the steel roofing lose . Start by laying the Pipe roof flashing exactly where you want the pipe to come through the roof .Just make sure you are more than 2" away from any rafters . Take a felt pen and draw it around the inside of the pipe flashing hole . Then draw a straight line across the roof metal just below the center of the flashing . Set the flashing to the side and out of the way .Make this line only as wide as the flashing is .Next redraw the hole you drew in step# 1 by an additioal 1/2"wider . Now take a 4" grinder with a steel cutting wheel and cut the hole out . Then cut the line you drew across . This will now allow you to slide thw flashing up under the roofing metal and let the lower half extend over the top of the roof metal.
Now all you need to do is redraw the smaller hole as you did in step #1 onto the roof sheating and cut the hole with a jig saw . Once You have the hole completely through the roof ,you can reinsert the flashing and screw it in place with a couple of screws . After you slide the new pipe through install a pipe collar over the top and slide it down to the flashing. I use self sticking Alumimum tape to make a water tight seal at the seam . You can add a little dab of water proof chaulking at the edges of the new flashing where you cut the straight line acroos the roofing metal in step#2.

This whole process should not take more than 10 minutes , Good Luck .
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Old 11-13-2008, 06:17 AM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Check you codes (if you have any).

Here it requires insulated or ventilated pipe for the entire run inside the building.
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Old 11-13-2008, 08:26 AM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
Check you codes (if you have any).

Here it requires insulated or ventilated pipe for the entire run inside the building.
and we're only required to use double or triple wall pipe at penetrations down here. OTOH, Al's description of how to cut the hole is a good way to do it with minimal chance of leakage.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:28 AM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik View Post
is there a way to run the pipe through the side of the building, then up the outside?

Yes. There is a kit for that from Simpson. And as it was stated make sure you have a way to clean it out.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:34 AM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Al, that was the best way of doing that I've ever heard. Wish I'd known you ya all those years I lived up north!!!
If things go as BO plans, I might be doing it down here 'cause I'll be burning mesquite wood to keep warm.
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:27 AM
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Default Re: Stove Pipe ???s

No local codes here, but nothing I'd tried to Google gives me information on single wall in the atic. I did however learn on Hearth.com that once you penatrate a ceiling: codes [national?] mandate double wall all the way thereafter. So.... back to looking at that roof.

Yep, Al that is slick -Thanks! Unfortunately it was sealing the ribs (at least 1" tall, I'd have to cut at least one, maybe two) giving me even more consternation, but with the rest of the battle so easy, I can perhaps be on my best behavior caulking them in.

Perhaps too (though a bit more skill when sawing) I can leave an inch long "tab" on the top of the cut ribs (of course top and bottom), I could curve back down to the sides of the ribs, so I have something solid to caulk to. Temp swings so nasty (and corresponding often with precip) here the tin expands and contracts enough to make me want a good reliable caulk job.

Thanks everyone, I need to go into town today, so I'll grab the roof flashing parts. Hopefully tommorow you'll either have pictures of a nice roof job, or still possibly something really hokey.
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Old 11-14-2008, 10:54 AM
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Talking Re: Stove Pipe ???s

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiffy1 View Post
No local codes here, but nothing I'd tried to Google gives me information on single wall in the atic. I did however learn on Hearth.com that once you penatrate a ceiling: codes [national?] mandate double wall all the way thereafter. So.... back to looking at that roof.

Yep, Al that is slick -Thanks! Unfortunately it was sealing the ribs (at least 1" tall, I'd have to cut at least one, maybe two) giving me even more consternation, but with the rest of the battle so easy, I can perhaps be on my best behavior caulking them in.

Perhaps too (though a bit more skill when sawing) I can leave an inch long "tab" on the top of the cut ribs (of course top and bottom), I could curve back down to the sides of the ribs, so I have something solid to caulk to. Temp swings so nasty (and corresponding often with precip) here the tin expands and contracts enough to make me want a good reliable caulk job.

Thanks everyone, I need to go into town today, so I'll grab the roof flashing parts. Hopefully tommorow you'll either have pictures of a nice roof job, or still possibly something really hokey.
Doing it this way you do not need to worry about the upper ribs as the roof flashing slides under them . The lower ribs can be flatten with a hammer to just below the bottom flashing to insure no wind driven rain gets up and under the flashing.
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