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electric snow cat?

leadvillerpm

New member
My 1958 snow trac (serial # 58025) was delivered about a week ago. I live in Leadville Colorado where the elevation is over 10,000 feet above sea level. At this altitude a combustion engine looses about 30% of it hp. Took it for it first trip this week end and it is defently a little underpowered. This got me and my employees talking about how to get this thing to perform a little better. I run an auto repair shop and have decided to go build a 1904cc air cooler and am working on getting an EFI set up off of a 1993-2004 Mexican produced air cooled Beetle. But one of the coolest ideas that is getting tossed around the shop is to run a generator off the vw engine, eliminate the variators and install batteries and two electic motors (one on each drive sprocket). Electric motor can create much more torque than an combustion engine and this set up would also give you the ability to counter rotate the tracks. You could even set it up to drive with a couple of joystick on the dash. I believe the only downfall other than the cost of conversion (probably over $12,000) would be the extra weight of the batteries.

Any thoughts?
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
I would look at the front drive motors off a Champion or Cat grader .It will take a hella a hyd pump setup but They may get you to 20 MPH or so .
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Check out LeTourneau down in Texas. They have built all kinds of electric drive stuff over the years. Should be able to give you some ideas and sizes for electric drives.www.[B]letourneau[/B]-inc.com
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
I would look at the front drive motors off a Champion or Cat grader .It will take a hella a hyd pump setup but They may get you to 20 MPH or so .
another down fall with electric would be the weight of a motor large enough to move you i like your idea of efi and a super charger would also liven things up a bit and i'm not a fan of hydrostatic drive you still have the steering problems of bake steer the varriator is ttill the moste effecient all your moderen armor uses a varriator to steer they just do it with clutches .bands and planatary gears like an automatis transmission there by allowing a 0 turn steering radius or but both out puts are still tied together through a transmossion and differential
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
another down fall with electric would be the weight of a motor large enough to move you i like your idea of efi and a super charger would also liven things up a bit and i'm not a fan of hydrostatic drive you still have the steering problems of bake steer the varriator is ttill the moste effecient all your moderen armor uses a varriator to steer they just do it with clutches .bands and planatary gears like an automatis transmission there by allowing a 0 turn steering radius or but both out puts are still tied together through a transmossion and differential

If it could handle the heat of a Turbo Chager that would be better and do the same thing . Its not robbing the motor of HP .
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
Just a thought here and I'm a non-snowcatter, but what about a turbo-normalizer (as they are called in the aircraft industry)?

This is a turbo setup that is wast-gated to only give boost to sea level air pressure (29.92" Hg manifold pressure). This should only have minimal effect on the durability of the motor and cooling.

An electric drive system would be super heavy in comparison to an air-cooled VW, don't you think?
 

leadvillerpm

New member
Another issue of being at this kind of altitude is cooling. Oxygen is what removes the heat from the engine and there is about a 1/3 less o2 molecules in the air up here compared to sea level. Raising the compression ratio or adding any type of forced induction creates a lot more heat. Removing that heat up here would be difficult.

As far as the weight of the electric drive motors would most likely be minimal. Most drive motors put in bugs are only 9 inches in diameter and around 12 inches long.

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BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Just a thought here and I'm a non-snowcatter, but what about a turbo-normalizer (as they are called in the aircraft industry)?

This is a turbo setup that is wast-gated to only give boost to sea level air pressure (29.92" Hg manifold pressure). This should only have minimal effect on the durability of the motor and cooling.

An electric drive system would be super heavy in comparison to an air-cooled VW, don't you think?

I agree .
Wheel Motors on a Cat are huge . You would have to direct drive a Hydraulic pump off the motor to get it to work . Running a generator over a electric hydraulic motor would just add more wieght .
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
I took the idea as two separate direct drive motors and a engine/generator setup, plus reserve batteries.

More than the replacement of the gas with electric power.
 

leadvillerpm

New member
The system would require 2 electric drive motors and a generator driven by a gas motor (This would actually be more like a hybrid system). You would have the added weight of these components, but you could eliminate the weight of the transmission, variators, chains, and chain sprockets.

As far as the batteries...in a hybrid system where there is a generator recharging them constantly you could run a modern storage system. Many modern hybrid vehicles have light weight battery packs. I just had a honda civic hybrid in my shop recently that had a battery pack that was equivelent to 120 D cell batterys.

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MNoutdoors RIP

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
we have researched a electric drive cat and almost pulled the trigger on it. and after looking at costs and liability's we held back we were looking at 3 phase ac with frequency drives. the cost was high and so was the weight and when you fall into the water not sure if the GFI's would trip soon enough.
good thing Lametracs are not electric as much as they fall through ..........:whistling:

Benefits were you had power at the jobsite or cabin you just plugged in...
 

leadvillerpm

New member
When you were looking at doing an electric cat... where you going to have a gas engine running a generator and and small battery pack or where you looking at doing a full electric drive with several large batteries to run on. I know that the electric conversion would add weight, but with a gas engine/generator set up I believe the weight increase would be minimal as the battery set up could be quite light and you could remove many mechanical parts (at least in the snow trac application) to make up for some of the electric motor weight.

I am aware of the cost of electric drive systems. That is why I will not be doing one at this time, but if this technology takes off the cost of doing such a project may become much more affordable.

Ryan
 

couchloafer

Member
SUPER Site Supporter
I love this website! The discussion here is fantastic!
Has anyone thought about a hydrostat Snow Trac? I see people on hydro boards running everything from lawn mowers to motorcycles with them just because they can. I really would never be able to myself but it would be cool to see someone do it !

How would an electric system fair in the extreme cold of Alaska?
 

alaska120

Mayor McCheese
SUPER Site Supporter
Hydraulics take a while to warm up. We have a 140 Cat grader at work and it needs to run for a couple hours at -30 before it wants to act right. I spoke with a guy in Fairbanks last winter about his Prius and he said at temps lower than -20 he parks it because it won't move. Might not be a big deal to most but its been -20 to -45 for going on four weeks now here. Takes a big chunk out of your play time!
 

vermonster

New member
Ryan: Interesting concept, but I don't see how a electric system with a small battery will help you with power.

Once the battery depletes you are left with only what can be generated by the engine. This will be less then what you have now because of losses in the conversion to elec and back to mechanical.

Hybrid systems get their advantage by converting the kinetic energy back to elec (charge braking). Cats don't seem to need as much braking as rolling cars.

Steering would be better and more energy efficient as brake steer wastes energy in heat where as an elec system would not.

A large battery charged at home would add to your total available energy but would come at a weight price.

Dean
 

leadvillerpm

New member
If your generator puts out enough power to maintain the batteries even under full power usage by the drive motors you would not need much battery storage.

Heres a link to a guys car that is powered by an electric motor recieving its power from 4 batteries that are constantly being charged by a lawn mower engine generator.

It has a top speed of 90 mph and gets 75 mpg.

Electric Car Conversion: The Amazing 75-MPG Hybrid Car
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
in the military we used a formula for 3 phase motors of 1kw for every horse power of motor so do the math for a 60 horse set up
 
It's 746 watts = 1hp or about 44kw to produce 60hp. I think the hybrid idea is a good concept but the technology is not yet there to achive the performance you need in a snowcat, but then technology advances come from ideas just like yours. Also if you are producing enough power to "keep up" with the batteries then you should be able to do away with the batteries altogether as they are for storage /reserve only and all you need to do is convert AC to DC, assuming you are using DC motors. If you were to capture energy from braking or another source then batteries would be necessary or they may be necessary to stabilize any power or demand fluctuations.?. IMO the idea of burning gas in a engine to turn an AC generator and then convert that to DC to finally drive the tracks is so inefficient that same level of performance you are now getting is not possible.

If you were to do a hydrostatic conversion I would think using the components out of a bobcat type skid steer would be the easiest and cleanest way to go, at least that was my idea when I used to have a Bombie. I personally like hydrostatics and have 3 well used(affordable) Piston Bullys that work better for my application than the other types of drive systems. Of course I need three to keep one going :yum:
 

snowbird

New member
I don't think I'd want to convert my snowcat to electric (or hybrid), but I have seriously considered modifying a Chev S-10 pickup to all electric (with the pickup being designed to hold the weight of the batteries). I found info on the internet about folks who'd done that. The range between plug-in charging would easily get me from my home to downtown and back again. I think my wife will have to get used to our having a snowcat first, though.
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
it's not electric but i was doing some research here is a cool idea i might even impliment it my self on a future project Lombardini makes a 197 lb 65 hp turbo diesel the turbo charger would make up for alot of your lost pressure at altitude and diesls usualy have better torque to the only draw back i see is the 3k redline it will limit top speed unless you do a ring and pinion change.
 

mtmogs

New member
You got me very excited there ... Are you absolutely sure the engine isn't actually 197 kg, or ~434 pounds?

it's not electric but i was doing some research here is a cool idea i might even impliment it my self on a future project Lombardini makes a 197 lb 65 hp turbo diesel the turbo charger would make up for alot of your lost pressure at altitude and diesls usualy have better torque to the only draw back i see is the 3k redline it will limit top speed unless you do a ring and pinion change.
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
GOLD Site Supporter
my mistake thats a um deal there is still the new mb diesel in last months diesel power but i think that would be priced out of my range
 

bombthebest

Member
Well, Prinoth now has a Husky, tested here in Quebec, by a snowmobile club,
to groom there trails wich is called " e-motion"...
It is a modified Husky, with a 3600rpm diesel driving a generator wich
keeps batteries charged and the final drive is via electric motors driving
the wheelmount planetaries, on the sprockets.
I've seen the machine at the factory, being tested ( fall, no snow)...
Imagine, a dozer with TREE mooving parts,(if you don't count the planetaries, and diesel eng) .ONE rotor in gen, and TWO rotors in motors...
We'll see the results but, that's the future, NOW in my mind...
 

mtmogs

New member
Looks promising at this point...

PRINOTH presents the new project “HUSKY.E-MOTION”

2/11/2009 -

Granby (Québec, Canada), October 30, 2009 - On the occasion of the ICUEE show in the USA, PRINOTH presented the new project “HUSKY.E-MOTION” and is herewith the first manufacturer worldwide to present a completely functional groomer with diesel-electrical drive and standard particle filter. PRINOTH participated with his Utility Vehicles in the ICUEE show in Louisville, Kentucky, USA, for the first time. This is the world’s biggest trade show all about construction, maintenance und servicing of electrical lines as well as gasoline and oil pipes. About 25.000 visitors attended the massive show that occupies 109,622 m² of indoor and outdoor exhibition space where more than 850 exhibitors from all around the world displayed their products from October 6 to 8, 2009.

With the Husky E-motion PRINOTH distinguishes itself once more in innovation and as the technology leader in this industry. Herewith, the company shows that trendsetting solutions can be achieved for environment and climate protection with help from innovative technologies. A special challenge for the PRINOTH engineers was the enduring of the vehicles efficiency in order to decrease the CO2 emissions long-term without affecting the vehicle performance and the operator’s comfort. An increased degree of effectiveness as well as considerably reduced diesel consumption are obtained by an intelligent performance management of the drive motors. PRINOTH was able to develop a vehicle whose diesel consumption is reduced by 20% in comparison to conventional drive systems whereas the performance is simultaneously raised by 30% and the torque at the drive gear by 15%.

“E-motion” stands for electrical drive as well as for the efficient and environment-friendly technologies. By participating at the ICUEE show in Kentucky, PRINOTH proves once more its strength as technology leader and presents a “NEW GENERATION OF EFFICIENCY with the Husky E-motion.
 

stevefromcac

New member
Not the craziest idea I have heard. One thing I saw a guy do up here was to build an "electric Pinto" dragster. It runs pretty fast and real quiet. For batteries he is using a bank of milwakee cordless batteries. The brushless motors are coming a long way. Anyway, just thought I would chime in, If nothing else it will be a fun project to keep an eye on.
 

Twisted

New member
Neat idea & I like the discussion. How you use this machine will also determine the effictiveness of an electric conversion. First off we have to remember the Law of Conservation of Energy. The power output of the gas engine will be the determining factor of the drive system unless a power adder (ie. battery bank) is incorperated. What I'm saying is the conversion to electric through the generator then back to mechanical through the drive motors will account for some efficency lossed resulting in less drive motor output than the gasoline engine's crank power. The way an electric set-up can actually increase power output is by adding battery banks to hold some reserve energy for the peak load times to power a larger electric drive motor. So... Generator output + battery reserve output will equal an increase over the crank output of the gas engine. Where this system fails is where the average load is above the output of the generator. Once the reserve power of the batteries has been depleated the drive motors will only receive what the generator can supply which is determined by the output of the original gasoline engine.
I hope that I didn't confuse anybody. It makes perfect to me;-P
 
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