dzalphakilo
Banned
Concord is Armstrong's air (AKA Allied Air, a division of Lennox International) builders grade unit. If this contractor didn't mention this to you, I'd wonder why.
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Central HVAC Install Price
- Thread starter buckle97
- Start date
Concord is Armstrong's air (AKA Allied Air, a division of Lennox International) builders grade unit. If this contractor didn't mention this to you, I'd wonder why.
Cityboy
Banned
If this were my choice and my money, based on my experience, I'd go with the 13 SEER 410A system, standard fan and the contractor I trusted. If it is a heat pump system and the 3-ton was sized right at the limits of the load calculation, I'd go 3.5 tons. The southern summers are not getting any cooler or less humid. Plus your old house does not have a tight envelope and on those 100+ degree days that additional 1/2 ton of capacity will be nice, as will the additional heating capacity in the winter.
One thing you will get with HVAC guys is a variety of opinions. My philosophy of HVAC and life is to not complicate things any more than necessary. Keep it simple. The 13 SEER will cool and heat your home just as good as the higher SEER units and you can save the $1,500 to put toward new insulation, windows and doors, which will save you a lot more in the long run than will the more expensive units. The repair parts tend to be more expensive on the higher SEER units as well. It is considerably cheaper to replace a standard fan motor than a variable speed motor, and the standard motor is usually generic, whereas the variable speed motors are most often proprietary and consequently even more expensive, especially Lennox, Carrier and Trane.
Buy the 13 SEER 410A unit from the contractor you trust and be happy!
As to running the fan 24/7 - I do not do this because it wastes energy and does not make me any more comfortable than cycling the fan, plus it wears out yout motor bearings sooner. Some people like to run their fans constantly, and that works for them and makes them happy. Do what makes you comfortable.
One thing you will get with HVAC guys is a variety of opinions. My philosophy of HVAC and life is to not complicate things any more than necessary. Keep it simple. The 13 SEER will cool and heat your home just as good as the higher SEER units and you can save the $1,500 to put toward new insulation, windows and doors, which will save you a lot more in the long run than will the more expensive units. The repair parts tend to be more expensive on the higher SEER units as well. It is considerably cheaper to replace a standard fan motor than a variable speed motor, and the standard motor is usually generic, whereas the variable speed motors are most often proprietary and consequently even more expensive, especially Lennox, Carrier and Trane.
Buy the 13 SEER 410A unit from the contractor you trust and be happy!
As to running the fan 24/7 - I do not do this because it wastes energy and does not make me any more comfortable than cycling the fan, plus it wears out yout motor bearings sooner. Some people like to run their fans constantly, and that works for them and makes them happy. Do what makes you comfortable.
dzalphakilo
Banned
buckle97
Do yourself a favor and find someone who has a properly installed variable speed system and check it out for yourself first hand what the difference is.
Stay away from the R22 systems.
Cityboy is incorrect on the price on the new variable speed motors. Years ago I would of agreed with his comment/opinion, but not now.
CB, whens the last time you priced out a variable speed modual sp? (with technology, sometimes the price does come down substantially through time).
Do yourself a favor and find someone who has a properly installed variable speed system and check it out for yourself first hand what the difference is.
Stay away from the R22 systems.
Cityboy is incorrect on the price on the new variable speed motors. Years ago I would of agreed with his comment/opinion, but not now.
CB, whens the last time you priced out a variable speed modual sp? (with technology, sometimes the price does come down substantially through time).
thcri
Gone But Not Forgotten
CityBoy said:
The prices on the variable drives have come down some but are still up there. As for running the motors 24 hours on an standard old motor a lot of people don't like running them all the time is because of the cold drafts you get from moving a lot of air. The variable drive typically will slow down to a pretty slow speed when there is not a call for A/C or Heat and just move a small amount of heat keeping the temperature more even throughout the house.
In my old tri-level house that I bought many years ago the temperature range from the lower level to the upper level was about 9 degrees. We took out the old single speed system and put in a Carrier Infinity furnace and we changed the differential from 9 down to 3.
I wish I had more time to be around and be more involved in this thread but I just have been too busy.
murph
CB,
Prior to getting the new furnace (with the variable speed), I did run mine 24/7. I did it for the reason Murph mentioned (I have a 4 level house) as well as I found it cheaper than using a dehumidifier to keep the basement dry. In the winter, when the wood stove was running, it was about the only way I could distribute the heat amongst the 4 floors. Floor fans and "heat rises" wasn't cutting it.
Cityboy
Banned
There are different situations based upon the floor plan of the structure and the installation of the HVAC system. Like I said, do what makes YOU comfortable. In the homes I have owned, there was no need to run the blower 24/7. One was a two-story with two systems. Two were single levels in which I designed and installed the systems for optimimum air distribution.
In most cases (not all, of course) where the fan is run 24/7, there is a design flaw in the air distribution system which causes stratification or uneven distribution resulting in hot or cold spots. Sometimes you just have to deal with the system as it was installed and do what you have to do to make your home comfortable.
Do you have 1 HVAC system to distribute air to 4 floors? If so, I understand why you would run your fan 24/7 in an attempt to more evenly distribute air. This is likely not the best designed system for your home because it is difficult to get even air distribution over multiple floors with a typical residential air handling unit. You have found a solution that works for you, and that's good. But when you have the opportunity to design and install your own duct system and mechanical equipment, why not design it for optimum air flow where you do not need the more expensive equipment for comfort?
$1,500 to one person may seem like a small amount to pay to save $10 per month on their power bill, but to another, it is an entirely different situation, and that $1,500 would be better spent on other necessities.
dzalphakilo
Banned
I'm curious Brian, as a homeowner, how do you like having the variable speed furnace compared to your non-variable speed older unit?
Again, my whole point is that the HVAC contractor should explain the options that are available and the "features and benifits" of going with that type of system (and explaining why there is a price difference). A lot of people are not aware of "what's out there" and what you can now do with systems.
There's more than one HVAC flaw in my house... (e.g. R19 in attic which is now R40). I'm fixing as I go.
Yes. 1 system for 4 floors. Granted, when I bought it was only 3 but I finished the basement and re-did the ducts and replaced the furnace and heat pump to accommodate.
Back to the original thread/poster...
I'll pile on and say to spend that extra $1500 on other parts of the house.
BTW - Not sure about your area but Home Depot here is giving a $100 gift card for every $300 spent in insulation right now. Offer ends 10/10.
Cityboy
Banned
Murph,
I wish you had more time too!
I've highlighted some sections of your post in blue. First off, I don't know where DZ buys his VSD motors, but they are still not what I would call "cheap". And when that baby breaks, or the VSD control burns out after the warranty has expired, a standard $150-$200 motor replacement turns into a $600-$700 or more job, depending on the manufacturer of the equipment, the contractor, and the time of year when the break-down occurs. This is something to consider when purchasing equipment. Hopefully, your unit will run flawlessly for 20 years or more and you won't have to worry about service & repair expenses.
Next, note Murph said: "In my old tri-level house that I bought many years ago......". I gurantee that if Murph had designed and installed the HVAC in that house, he would have optimum air flow and would not have to take actions after the fact to correct it. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to correct a less than adequate system design that you inherited.
Mt point is, Buckle has the opportunity to have a properly designed complete system installed, and therefore has more choices as to what he can do with the extra $1,500. He can spend it on tightening up his homes thermal envelope, or buy the more expensive equipment, or throw a party in his newly air conditioned house.
We could argue about the merits of VSD fans and high SEER rated equipment all day. There is no one size fits all solution for every situation, and we all have our opinions based on our individual experiences. An HVAC equipment salesman will often have a different opinion than a service technician who has actually worked on the equipment after the sale and installation. All opinions have some value and must be weighed accordingly, because as the saying goes: "none of us are as smart as all of us".
dzalphakilo
Banned
Lets compare apples to apples here, and go with the "premium line" of Carrier.
To replace the modual (VSD control) will run you under $600 (out of warranty), and that is FLAT RATE pricing from two large Carrier FAD's in our local area.
What do you pay a car mechanic to replace your alternator? (compared to a dealer or a mechanic down the stree who works out of his garage) Do the work yourself and if you know what you're doing, see how much time it takes you.
thcri
Gone But Not Forgotten
We just changed one on a 11 year old Carrier Infinity Furnace and charge $580.00. This was one year out of warranty. Customer bought a new Infinity Furnace as they didn't want to spend the money on a furnace 11 years old.
Oh and by the way, our company just became the 4th Carrier Factory Authorized Dealer in Minnesota. (CFAD) DZ for you to have 2 in your area is pretty good as that status is not easy to get.
murph
Thanks for all the thoughts and comments on this subject.
My wife and I like the idea of spending the $1,500 savings on insulation and windows. We are going to really think about what we want and try to make a decision before the cooler weather gets here.
My wife and I like the idea of spending the $1,500 savings on insulation and windows. We are going to really think about what we want and try to make a decision before the cooler weather gets here.
dzalphakilo
Banned
Whatever system you choose, seriously consider the R410A system. In 2010 manufacturers will cease production of all R22 systems and then the goverment starts regulating the production of R22 until it cease to exists.
You have a problem with a new R22 system installed today 10 years down the road, you may have more serious price issues to deal with.
Right now, R410A is 25% higher in cost compared to R22. Eight years ago R410 was at least TEN TIMES the cost of R22. I think by summer of next year, for the first time you will see R410 be less money than R22.
If the contractor didn't at least offer you a R410A system, that should tell you something about the contractor.
We had the Goodman 13 SEER unit installed on Oct 29th. It has probably only kicked on 15 days since we got it installed, but we can already tell it was worth the investment. I don't fight getting out of bed on the cold mornings quite as bad as I used to.
I was very pleased with the contractor I chose and he did a great job with the installation. Now I just need to remove all the propane space heaters and free up some wall space.
Thanks again for everyone's suggestions on this purchase.
I was very pleased with the contractor I chose and he did a great job with the installation. Now I just need to remove all the propane space heaters and free up some wall space.
Thanks again for everyone's suggestions on this purchase.