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ETHANOL industry subsidies ~ good policy or bad?

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Here is a government subsidy that should end:boxing:

We have been piddling around with Ethanol blends for 30 years and nobody actually wants to buy this stuff. Even at a government subsidized discount and the fuel pump it is still more expensive to run than gasoline or diesel. It can't be shipped in a pipeline so it must be trucked, which means plants must be localized, which leads to massive inefficiencies.

I am all for alternative energy. I believe there is a logical reason to subsidize it, to push it with government assistance, but when it can't stand on its own after 30 years of subsidies then its time to change gears. We don't need to continue a bad policy forever.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100716/ap_on_bi_ge/us_ethanol_tax_credits
Ethanol industry scrambles to keep incentives
By MARY CLARE JALONICK, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 21 mins ago

WASHINGTON – The once-popular ethanol industry is scrambling to hold onto billions of dollars in government subsidies, fighting an increasing public skepticism of the corn-based fuel and wariness from lawmakers who may divert the money to other priorities.

The industry itself can't agree on how to persuade Congress to keep the subsidies, which now come in the form of tax credits worth about $6 billion annually.

One industry group, Growth Energy, made the bold move Thursday of calling for the tax credits to be phased out completely in favor of spending the money on more flex-fuel cars and gasoline pumps that support ethanol. A rival group, the Renewable Fuels Association, said it's too late in the year to make such proposals — the tax credits expire at the end of the year, and legislative days are numbered.

As the industry bickers over what to do, Congress is signaling it's growing tired of paying for ethanol. The House Ways and Means Committee is considering slashing the tax credit by 9 cents a gallon, from 45 cents to 36 cents, when it looks at a wide range of energy tax credits as early as next week. That would be the second cut in the credit in as many years.
A key senator also expressed skepticism this week. Sen. Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico, Democratic chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee and a longtime supporter of renewable fuels, said Congress should "weigh all factors, including the credit's very high cost to taxpayers," when looking to extend the credit. Bingaman noted that the ethanol industry is protected by congressional mandates for its use.
Some supporters say they see the writing on the wall.

"The longer we have this support structure in place for ethanol, the more people begin to question it," said Roger Johnson, president of the National Farmers Union, which supports Growth Energy's plan. He says a new approach is needed as the public becomes more skeptical.

Rep. Earl Pomeroy, D-N.D., a member of the Ways and Means Committee, is leading the fight in the House to keep the tax credits. He says that the 9-cent cut is a good starting point and that he feels optimistic after discussing the issue with fellow committee members and members of the ethanol industry this week.

Pomeroy acknowledges that the legislative environment is challenging and says that a simple extension of the credit makes the most sense in the House. "Late in the legislative session, simpler is easier," he said.

Ethanol producers say expiration of the tax credits, which are paid to oil companies as an incentive to blend gasoline with ethanol, could mean the loss of almost 40 percent of its plants and tougher times for a domestic fuel that is good for national security.

Critics say the industry should stand on its own after receiving subsidies for 30 years and argue the tax credits are a waste of taxpayer dollars. A diverse coalition of groups has argued over the past few years that the increase in production of corn and its diversion for ethanol is making animal feed more expensive, raising prices at the grocery store and tearing up the land.

Craig Cox of the Environmental Working Group, one of the organizations opposing the fuel, says he thinks the industry "hit a wall" in Congress as concern over budget deficits have increased.

"Status quo support for ethanol is definitely not going to continue," he said.​
Story continues at link above.​
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
If those billions has been put into fuel cell research we would already have them perfected. Ethanol is a loser and destroys fuel systems and small engines. Subsidies are wrong beyond a research point. If the industry can't cut it let it die.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
If those billions has been put into fuel cell research we would already have them perfected. Ethanol is a loser and destroys fuel systems and small engines. Subsidies are wrong beyond a research point. If the industry can't cut it let it die.
Well said. I agree 100%
 

jimbo

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Two of the world problems according to the liberals is running out of energy and running out of food. Sol we solve the problem by turning food into energy, and use more energy than we produce to do it, then subsidize it.

Makes sense to me
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Had we put half the subsidy money going for ethanol into either fuel cells or hydrogen, we wouldn't have a single modern car burning gasoline today.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
IF the ethanol industry tanks, it will mean a 80's style recession depression in farm country. It would put many farmers out of business as they have greared up for this production. Ag is one of the only strong sectors of our economy right now and you want to trash it? come on guys, you shoud not change the rules in the middle of the game that is already being played. The food industry and oil companies are why this is even being discussed. It hurts them and with the unbliveably large amout of money they have and spent to smear ethanol. I am disaponted to hear you bash it, as we have used it for 20 years with NO ILL EFFECTS to any thing we use it in.

So if you are led by reasearch by those who will tell untruths about ethanol I guess so be it. There will be LOTS of farm sales because of your actions.

And not to mention, the muslins in the mid east like what you are saying.......

Regards, Kirk
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Kirk, I'll respectfully have to disagree.

The reality is that Ethanol, at least the way we do it in the USA, is totally unsustainable economically. But that does not doom farms if the ethanol subsidies are removed. Just as government created this mess, they can create another.

BioDiesel is a far more economically attractive alternative that can be made from corn, canola, flaxseed, peanut or soybean oil, etc.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
IF the ethanol industry tanks, it will mean a 80's style recession depression in farm country. It would put many farmers out of business as they have greared up for this production. Ag is one of the only strong sectors of our economy right now and you want to trash it? come on guys, you shoud not change the rules in the middle of the game that is already being played. The food industry and oil companies are why this is even being discussed. It hurts them and with the unbliveably large amout of money they have and spent to smear ethanol. I am disaponted to hear you bash it, as we have used it for 20 years with NO ILL EFFECTS to any thing we use it in.

So if you are led by reasearch by those who will tell untruths about ethanol I guess so be it. There will be LOTS of farm sales because of your actions.

And not to mention, the muslins in the mid east like what you are saying.......

Regards, Kirk
Kirk, sorry, bud, but I was raised on and continue to work with farms. This may hurt the ag giants. Frnkly, I hope it does. The small and medium farms will swallow it and keep going. The vast majority of farming is not dedicated to serving the ethanol rip-off.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Bob,
In Iowa I don't think there is a bio diesel plant that isn't "shuttered" so some one diagrees with you...Unfortunately biodiesel industry is in ruins unless they get back the tax breaks they were couting on. These lapsed some time ago, and I fear the same for ethanol. IF ethanol plats go ut of business here in the heart of the corn belt, land prices will fall in half along with production machinery, and there will be mega farm sales. This "game " was plannned and exicuted with federal tax breaks to get it started, and chang the rules, and it will fall down around us. It's too late to end the tax breaks that were promised by the Federal Gov. and not have a disaster of very epic propertions for midwest farms.

I am afraid I have to ask why ehtanol is economically unsustainable when most universities clearly come down in favor of it. It makes me wonder who you've been reading, David Pimmentell as UC Berkly perhaps? If so I suggest you google his "work" and see when debunked, how bad his "reasearch" is. His was bought and paid for by those who wish to end ethanol....We have 2.5 billion bushes of old crop corn to carryover in to the 2010 crop year so corn supply is not the problem....

Loboloco,

I don't even know what to say about your comments. Here in Iowa all farms are family owned, big, small and every thing in between. Drop the price of corn back to $2 and you will hurt familes, not giant ag corps....ADM will buy out privately owned ethanol plants for pennies on the dollar. They have not built a single one in many years, and right now they are a smaller and smaller producer of ethanol on a percentage basis....with really deeep pockets full of cash.

For 20 years we farmed for free with below cost of prodution $2 corn. Ask us to go back to that and there will be a fight, I garrantee. Farmers here are now contributing to the tax base, instead of being on the public dole. Kill ethanol and we will be right back to the 80's farm "crisis". You really want ot go back there? I kinda think you may farm, but you have to buy corn? That could be why you are in the "wrong" camp...

The folks who want to kill this industy, want to do so for their own gain, and the farmers loss. End of this story....

Regards, Kirk
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Then 300, I would suggest changing crops as we do around here. Corn is the least profitable crop we can grow here unless it is directly for on site feed stock. If your local farmers had not contracted out to the Big AG corps, you wouldn't be in that mess. No tears from me.
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Actually,the people who want to kill the ethanol mess are more concerned with the cost of it to the american people. If a farmer bought into the AG corps propaganda about manna from heaven, that's their problem. It is called bad management. No sympathy here.
The 80's 'farm crisis' was a crisis for single crop and mismanaged farms. We barely felt it because in this area most of the farmers are multiple income farmers. We do not depend on a single crop for our income. Diversity works in farming.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
loboloco

You don't understand that corn and soy are the only markets we have. We don't contract ourselves out to bit AG, just want a fari price in Chicago where all this is set. Don't know what you mean and obviously you don't understand much about the mid west farming operations....

So no tears from me either....if corn is to high price for you to make money. I have very little ympathy for big "meat" and it sounds like you are one of those guys. Live stock feeders I have no sympathy for....You industy was drunk for many years on $2 corn, and now the party is over.....NO TEARS FROM ME

Later Kirk
 
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