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Backcountry Skiing
- Thread starter backcountry
- Start date
backcountry
New member
The house pics I think we took them in the middle of summer. The garage pics were taken this past September when I finally received C.O. from the county.
BTW, meeting with the district Forest rangers tomorrow to discuss some plans/ideas.
BTW, meeting with the district Forest rangers tomorrow to discuss some plans/ideas.
Snowcat Pat
Active member
You have a huge resource base, more than enough to do what ever you want. Have Fun!
-Pat
-Pat
backcountry
New member
We met with the district forest ranger and others this morning and they basically shot our plan down. They had one of there biologist there to help deny our plan. They claim a 4300 lbs snow cat will compact the snow and harm the wild life. Our plan outline was to stay on an old logging road to the top and drop skiers/boarders off. Then take the same road back down. We just do not see how this would harm the wild life.
On to our next plan.
On to our next plan.
I'm working on it already 
Alaska Snow Cat
Member
Backcountry,
I have had quite a bit of experiance running commercial snowcat activities on public land so I like to give some advice. First off, be prepared to be told no at every step of the way and also be prepared to have to pay a application fee inorder to hear the word no. In order to make any headway, no matter if you run a club or outfit or are doing it for your friends, know the rules and regulations better than the buracrates who "manage" the land. Which isn't too hard as most of them don't know diddly. All the rules and regulations are available to you, by law, and you can research them online or at most libraries. If you apply for any permit and are denied, they are required to spell out the legal process for which you were denied as well as the appeal process. You better get used to writting letters and getting to know your political representatives, even if you get a permit at first there is a whole slug of people that will protest your operation. If not now than in the future. Start looking into insurance no matter what type of operation you decide on as it is expensive, hard to find and nessesary.
This is not meant to disswade you but instead prepare you. I have held 5 permits over the years to provide snowcat tours and to groom snowmobile(multipurpose) trails and every single one was a battle that consumed way more time than I ever imangined. One took two years and in the process I led the fight to stop a massive closure of State Park land to moterized use that the greenies were trying to sneak in under the radar. Now keep in mind that all my activites were on Alaska State Park lands or general state lands which are not near as over managed as federal lands. I wish you success as snowcating in the back country is as about as exiting as it gets.
I have had quite a bit of experiance running commercial snowcat activities on public land so I like to give some advice. First off, be prepared to be told no at every step of the way and also be prepared to have to pay a application fee inorder to hear the word no. In order to make any headway, no matter if you run a club or outfit or are doing it for your friends, know the rules and regulations better than the buracrates who "manage" the land. Which isn't too hard as most of them don't know diddly. All the rules and regulations are available to you, by law, and you can research them online or at most libraries. If you apply for any permit and are denied, they are required to spell out the legal process for which you were denied as well as the appeal process. You better get used to writting letters and getting to know your political representatives, even if you get a permit at first there is a whole slug of people that will protest your operation. If not now than in the future. Start looking into insurance no matter what type of operation you decide on as it is expensive, hard to find and nessesary.
This is not meant to disswade you but instead prepare you. I have held 5 permits over the years to provide snowcat tours and to groom snowmobile(multipurpose) trails and every single one was a battle that consumed way more time than I ever imangined. One took two years and in the process I led the fight to stop a massive closure of State Park land to moterized use that the greenies were trying to sneak in under the radar. Now keep in mind that all my activites were on Alaska State Park lands or general state lands which are not near as over managed as federal lands. I wish you success as snowcating in the back country is as about as exiting as it gets.
WOW. I was told no at every step. I was even told no when they had no business telling me NO. IF you have a lease or a rental or own property you can legally snowcat anyone to that property. What they do when they get there is not your business (no pun intended). So if you want to go up and down 4 times a day or more and give rides back up to your property and then charge them an astronomical rental fee for the property then NO ONE can tell you NO.
backcountry
New member
AlaskaSnowCat - Thank you for your insight. As well as, Snowcat Ops.
We met with 4 people at the local ranger office. One was the district ranger, district recreation ranger, biologist and the 4th had some credible knowledge for the area we are trying to get permitted. The first thing they showed us was the Pike National forest map. And on this map was the area we are trying to get a snow cat club permit and it shows a red line across a snowmobile. Meaning no motorized access. This area use to be a small ski resort back in the early 80's and shutdown in 84. The only person in our meeting truely against us was the biologist. I'm so tired of being shutdown due to some small animal. The Pike National forest is thousands of acres in size. I just do not see what we are looking to do to cause any harm. All around this area they allow motorized vehicles.
I will email the rangers again and ask for what AlaskaSnowCat recommended regarding why we are denied and the appeal process. Then again, they never gave us anything in writing just pointed out on the map that no motorized vehicles are allowed in this area.
We were a bit ticked off in the meeting near the end. They stated the old cabin at the top they are thinking of turning into a backcountry rental cabin. And that they would need to drive a truck up there in the summer to pump the outhouse. No motorized vehicles allowed, but not for the feds.
We met with 4 people at the local ranger office. One was the district ranger, district recreation ranger, biologist and the 4th had some credible knowledge for the area we are trying to get permitted. The first thing they showed us was the Pike National forest map. And on this map was the area we are trying to get a snow cat club permit and it shows a red line across a snowmobile. Meaning no motorized access. This area use to be a small ski resort back in the early 80's and shutdown in 84. The only person in our meeting truely against us was the biologist. I'm so tired of being shutdown due to some small animal. The Pike National forest is thousands of acres in size. I just do not see what we are looking to do to cause any harm. All around this area they allow motorized vehicles.
I will email the rangers again and ask for what AlaskaSnowCat recommended regarding why we are denied and the appeal process. Then again, they never gave us anything in writing just pointed out on the map that no motorized vehicles are allowed in this area.
We were a bit ticked off in the meeting near the end. They stated the old cabin at the top they are thinking of turning into a backcountry rental cabin. And that they would need to drive a truck up there in the summer to pump the outhouse. No motorized vehicles allowed, but not for the feds.
Alaska Snow Cat
Member
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. Get ahold of the landmanagement plan for that area. Also any "grandfather rights" that apply to the road and the old ski area. The area maybe "closed" except for certain permitted activities. Try and locate the old ski area owners as those type of people usually have a weath of information. Apply for a permit in WRITING. This will get the feds skirts all bunched up! Have fun with the process and I can't stress enough, get educated. If nothing else you will make those boys do there job. Also if you are an inholding property owner inside the national forest you will need to know as much as possible about that unit. Wish I was there to help as there is nothing more than the goverment trying to limit my rights that sets a fire under me.
backcountry
New member
Alaska Snow Cat - We know one of the old owners lives just down the road from our house. The old Governor of CO Roy Romer. The landmanagement plan you mention, should I email the forest ranger office back requesting that and any old grandfather rights?
Since this area use to be an old ski area back in the early/mid 80's you would think they must of recently in the last 10-15 years changed this to non-motorized. We did aplly for a permit in writing and there office has our permit request in writing. The only permitted activities curently allowed there is for use by hiking/snowshoe. The old parking lot has been used the last couple summers by a construction company to store there heavy machinery. Like I have mentioned before there is an old logging type road that takes you to the top. This is the same road the rangers mentioned they use to reach the top during the summer.
No our property we own now is not in the National Forest, we just border it.
Since this area use to be an old ski area back in the early/mid 80's you would think they must of recently in the last 10-15 years changed this to non-motorized. We did aplly for a permit in writing and there office has our permit request in writing. The only permitted activities curently allowed there is for use by hiking/snowshoe. The old parking lot has been used the last couple summers by a construction company to store there heavy machinery. Like I have mentioned before there is an old logging type road that takes you to the top. This is the same road the rangers mentioned they use to reach the top during the summer.
No our property we own now is not in the National Forest, we just border it.
The district ranger is the local area manager and you need to do what you can to get him on your side. He does report to the Forest Supervisor that manages several ranger districts. That is another person that you need to include in your communications and planning. Don't let the district ranger be the one to bottle neck your plans. He has very limited ability to make decisions without consulting his Forest Supervisor and that may be what he is doing now. The Forest Supervisor reports to the regional office which I believe would be in Denver for your area. Don't let some power trip hungry ranger make the decision that others up the ladder should be making in the final decision process.
I am in a similar situation as you by bordering the forest service. Thankfully, I have a district ranger that I can communicate with and who understands his best friends and worst enemy can be a neighbor. He will listen to our concerns, may not always agree, but he will try to look at our position and take that into his decision making process. He has taken the time to communicate, educate us to FS planning, and introduce us to the people he is responsible for and also to the supervisors he reports to. He takes his job as still being responsible to the citizens but also has a goal to protect resources. We do not always agree but we can talk with him and he will listen. I do hope he is appointed as the Forest Supervisor in the future for this area. We will miss him when he is gone and I am sure the next one will not make themselves as accessible and reasonable to the people as he has done for the people.
I worked with him to secure and utilize a 2 acre winter parking area on FS property for the people using this area. In the past we fought with the FS over parking in this area. They would build a dirt berm across the entrance of what we used for winter parking each year. Then, late in the fall just prior to winter someone and I have no idea who would take the berm out after the FS had put their heavy construction equipment away for the winter. In the summer they would come back in and block our parking area with another large dirt berm. When Mark was appointed district ranger I met with him to discuss this problem. He determined it was mostly a power trip by one of his people in his district office over the years. He put his foot down and issued me in writing a permit to utilize the area from 11-15 to 4-15 each year or as conditions permit for winter parking. As users we do have responsibilities to not create resource damage. I find this to be a problem as a few people do not care about what kind of mess or damage they do and then we are all blamed for their actions. I pick up garbage, handle opening and closing the area along with communicating to the people that use it they have user responsibilities. Some of the attitudes of the users are really bad when it comes to trying to abide by the rules as they assume they can do whatever they want without repercussions.
So backcountry, get to know the people you are trying to work with. Someone in the FS can help you get what you need. You need to find that one person who can make it happen for you. Good luck, as I know what you are fighting a tough one but do not alienate all of them against you or you will never be able to get your project fully reviewed or completed.
.....Bill
I am in a similar situation as you by bordering the forest service. Thankfully, I have a district ranger that I can communicate with and who understands his best friends and worst enemy can be a neighbor. He will listen to our concerns, may not always agree, but he will try to look at our position and take that into his decision making process. He has taken the time to communicate, educate us to FS planning, and introduce us to the people he is responsible for and also to the supervisors he reports to. He takes his job as still being responsible to the citizens but also has a goal to protect resources. We do not always agree but we can talk with him and he will listen. I do hope he is appointed as the Forest Supervisor in the future for this area. We will miss him when he is gone and I am sure the next one will not make themselves as accessible and reasonable to the people as he has done for the people.
I worked with him to secure and utilize a 2 acre winter parking area on FS property for the people using this area. In the past we fought with the FS over parking in this area. They would build a dirt berm across the entrance of what we used for winter parking each year. Then, late in the fall just prior to winter someone and I have no idea who would take the berm out after the FS had put their heavy construction equipment away for the winter. In the summer they would come back in and block our parking area with another large dirt berm. When Mark was appointed district ranger I met with him to discuss this problem. He determined it was mostly a power trip by one of his people in his district office over the years. He put his foot down and issued me in writing a permit to utilize the area from 11-15 to 4-15 each year or as conditions permit for winter parking. As users we do have responsibilities to not create resource damage. I find this to be a problem as a few people do not care about what kind of mess or damage they do and then we are all blamed for their actions. I pick up garbage, handle opening and closing the area along with communicating to the people that use it they have user responsibilities. Some of the attitudes of the users are really bad when it comes to trying to abide by the rules as they assume they can do whatever they want without repercussions.
So backcountry, get to know the people you are trying to work with. Someone in the FS can help you get what you need. You need to find that one person who can make it happen for you. Good luck, as I know what you are fighting a tough one but do not alienate all of them against you or you will never be able to get your project fully reviewed or completed.
.....Bill
Snowcat Pat
Active member
Alaska Snow Cat said; "Have fun with the process and I can't stress enough, get educated." This is key.
No matter what approach you take whether grass roots, club or commercial, you'll have a better time if you learn your rights under the law. There are plenty of smart people that are quietly out there in the backcountry and they aren't breaking any laws and operating safely.
For what its worth, my own approach is for the fun of skiing/riding and would rather not have to fight the 'crats for it. We have verbal permission from the private landowners around here to go have a good time on their property as long we agree to leave it clean, and not interfere with their logging projects. We have the same rights on fed land that the beelers do. We've been riding powder for the past three days and no laws or rules have been broken and no injuries occurred...it can be done as long as there is no profit motive, it's just so much simpler.
It might be good to keep in mind why you want to do this in the first place.
-Pat
No matter what approach you take whether grass roots, club or commercial, you'll have a better time if you learn your rights under the law. There are plenty of smart people that are quietly out there in the backcountry and they aren't breaking any laws and operating safely.
For what its worth, my own approach is for the fun of skiing/riding and would rather not have to fight the 'crats for it. We have verbal permission from the private landowners around here to go have a good time on their property as long we agree to leave it clean, and not interfere with their logging projects. We have the same rights on fed land that the beelers do. We've been riding powder for the past three days and no laws or rules have been broken and no injuries occurred...it can be done as long as there is no profit motive, it's just so much simpler.
It might be good to keep in mind why you want to do this in the first place.
-Pat
backcountry
New member
Thanks again mtntopper and Pat. I understand we need to try to make the local rangers our friends and not enemies. We will continue to be friendly. At this time we will need to do more research with all the great responses we have received here.
I just remembered another possible set back the rangers had was that the road to reach the old ski area parking lot is on a county road. Yet the county does not plow it in the winter time. We would need to unload the snow cat about 4-5 miles below the old ski area. Then drive up the unplowed county road with the snow cat. The rangers stated that the county would most likely not allow a snow cat on the road. This may or may not be true. I am pretty sure the county would title the snow cat and give us a license plate. I think with that we would be legal to drive the snow cat on the county unplowed road.
I just remembered another possible set back the rangers had was that the road to reach the old ski area parking lot is on a county road. Yet the county does not plow it in the winter time. We would need to unload the snow cat about 4-5 miles below the old ski area. Then drive up the unplowed county road with the snow cat. The rangers stated that the county would most likely not allow a snow cat on the road. This may or may not be true. I am pretty sure the county would title the snow cat and give us a license plate. I think with that we would be legal to drive the snow cat on the county unplowed road.
I think that the county would most likely allow your snowcat on it, though you may need to show commercial liability insurance for a pay to ski/road/transport operation. Don't mind what a ranger says about county business! That's for the county comissioners and will of the residents to decide, not the little Fed chief!
FYI, in Grand County there is a Cty Rd (#53 I believe) that is seasonally closed and becomes part of the YMCA of the Rockies nordic center's trails. It is called Blue Ridge and goes for quite a ways. The public pays to ski on it (which I do frequently).
Also there are a ton of other county roads that go unplowed and snowmobilers are all over them, as well as on many plowed roads by riders near trailheads. You see tracks following HWY 40 from Fraser to Grand Lake on state right of way. The town of Grand Lake even lets you ride in-town, as their snowmobile rental business is such an important part of the winter economy.
So I think you just need to work with the right tourism folks in your county to be introduced to the right commisssioners and it'll all be all right from the county point of view. Plus they will have a lot of pull with the local USFS office.
FYI, in Grand County there is a Cty Rd (#53 I believe) that is seasonally closed and becomes part of the YMCA of the Rockies nordic center's trails. It is called Blue Ridge and goes for quite a ways. The public pays to ski on it (which I do frequently).
Also there are a ton of other county roads that go unplowed and snowmobilers are all over them, as well as on many plowed roads by riders near trailheads. You see tracks following HWY 40 from Fraser to Grand Lake on state right of way. The town of Grand Lake even lets you ride in-town, as their snowmobile rental business is such an important part of the winter economy.
So I think you just need to work with the right tourism folks in your county to be introduced to the right commisssioners and it'll all be all right from the county point of view. Plus they will have a lot of pull with the local USFS office.
backcountry
New member
Polar - I agree I think the Rangers bringing up the County road was just a way to try to scare us away. But I don't think the County would have much of a problem.
What I don't understand about Colorado in the high country and counties that do get a lot of snow why they do not allow snowmobiles to ride along the County and state highway right of ways. I remember growing up in MN the high schools had designated snowmobile parking areas.
I will talk with my friend that is working with me on this and see if we can get the County involved to help us talk to the USFS to allow our snowcat club in this area. Thanks again for the great advice!
What I don't understand about Colorado in the high country and counties that do get a lot of snow why they do not allow snowmobiles to ride along the County and state highway right of ways. I remember growing up in MN the high schools had designated snowmobile parking areas.
I will talk with my friend that is working with me on this and see if we can get the County involved to help us talk to the USFS to allow our snowcat club in this area. Thanks again for the great advice!
BACKCOUNTRY,
Having just completed several trips into remote Ranger Stations to service our equipment we have on there property I come to learn that they too are in need of Snowcat services every now and then. They were surprised that we were heading into such remotes area and jumped on the fact that I would gladly carry extra fuel and equipment with me for them to there closed Ranger Stations. On one occasion they even gave us the keys to stay in one of there cabins over night. They stated they had lost an avalanche beacon from a previous trip into the area on snowmobiles. When we were there we found the beacon and updated them on the road conditions. This may be a tool you can use to get some people on your side.
Having just completed several trips into remote Ranger Stations to service our equipment we have on there property I come to learn that they too are in need of Snowcat services every now and then. They were surprised that we were heading into such remotes area and jumped on the fact that I would gladly carry extra fuel and equipment with me for them to there closed Ranger Stations. On one occasion they even gave us the keys to stay in one of there cabins over night. They stated they had lost an avalanche beacon from a previous trip into the area on snowmobiles. When we were there we found the beacon and updated them on the road conditions. This may be a tool you can use to get some people on your side.
The forest Dis-Service is exactly that.
They have, in fact, been infiltrated by "the green hypocrits".
In Nevada they used to (and still occasionally do) lob explosive devices through the windows of various public offices out there. Just ask Gloria Flora. Where is she now? Google the shovel brigade near Jarbidge, NV.
A quick study in the last days of the Berthoud Pass Ski area in Colorado will show you what you are up against. How they (the Dis-Service) violated the antiquities act is still in question and un-tried in court.
I do not condone violent activities but I can sort of understand.........
Just be glad you are not trying to permit a precious metal or coal mine............
Good luck to you with your endeavors. They are quite pure.
This is a great thread!
They have, in fact, been infiltrated by "the green hypocrits".
In Nevada they used to (and still occasionally do) lob explosive devices through the windows of various public offices out there. Just ask Gloria Flora. Where is she now? Google the shovel brigade near Jarbidge, NV.
A quick study in the last days of the Berthoud Pass Ski area in Colorado will show you what you are up against. How they (the Dis-Service) violated the antiquities act is still in question and un-tried in court.
I do not condone violent activities but I can sort of understand.........
Just be glad you are not trying to permit a precious metal or coal mine............
Good luck to you with your endeavors. They are quite pure.
This is a great thread!
backcountry
New member
We are still trying to pursue our rights to allow a snowcat club/service up the old ski hill area. I agree the Dis-Service is a perfect for them. Right off the bat they stated how running a snowcat within the same tracks and path may harm the animals. I am so tired of hearing about the animals and so called damage that may occur.
If there are more recommendations we can pursue please respond.
If there are more recommendations we can pursue please respond.
Alaska Snow Cat
Member
Backcountry,
Believe me I have heard it all when it comes to those who don't want Snow Cats or snowmobiles in "their" areas. As to the animal issues there have been studies done where some animals benifit from the trails and some don't. In Alaska, when we get deep snow, Snowcats are used to make trails for moose to get to the food source. At the same time it makes easy travel for predators to get to the moose. There also are studies where some animals don't see a motorized vehicle as much of a threat as the upright human form because the motor is not a natural predator while the human form is. These type of aurguments can go on forever. If I were you, I would concentrate on getting to know the land status and who owns and/or manages what areas. As others have indicated a single Ranger can't dictate what can happen in that unit or area. Find out the specifics of that unit and work out from there. There are going to be many documents, regulations and laws that specificaly or more generaly spell out what your rights are to the land. In my case the more I dug, the more I found and ultimatly the more power and influance I had to be treated fairly. The county road would interest me most as it was designed and constructed for motorized use. Also other unplowed county roads in Colorado are used by snow vehicles so there is a precident. It took me two years to get permission to groom an unplowed state road here in Alaska that is heavily used by snowmobilers and some dogmushers and skiiers. It was crazy and made no sense, but now that I have been grooming it for 5 years, some of the same land managers go around beating themselves on the chest and bragging how great the program is. Keep at it, slow and steady wins the race!
Believe me I have heard it all when it comes to those who don't want Snow Cats or snowmobiles in "their" areas. As to the animal issues there have been studies done where some animals benifit from the trails and some don't. In Alaska, when we get deep snow, Snowcats are used to make trails for moose to get to the food source. At the same time it makes easy travel for predators to get to the moose. There also are studies where some animals don't see a motorized vehicle as much of a threat as the upright human form because the motor is not a natural predator while the human form is. These type of aurguments can go on forever. If I were you, I would concentrate on getting to know the land status and who owns and/or manages what areas. As others have indicated a single Ranger can't dictate what can happen in that unit or area. Find out the specifics of that unit and work out from there. There are going to be many documents, regulations and laws that specificaly or more generaly spell out what your rights are to the land. In my case the more I dug, the more I found and ultimatly the more power and influance I had to be treated fairly. The county road would interest me most as it was designed and constructed for motorized use. Also other unplowed county roads in Colorado are used by snow vehicles so there is a precident. It took me two years to get permission to groom an unplowed state road here in Alaska that is heavily used by snowmobilers and some dogmushers and skiiers. It was crazy and made no sense, but now that I have been grooming it for 5 years, some of the same land managers go around beating themselves on the chest and bragging how great the program is. Keep at it, slow and steady wins the race!
backcountry
New member
After talking with my snowcat partner he believes that if we continue to pursue this the Forest Dis-Service will request us to provide studies as to why the habitat will not be damaged and environmental impacts. Essentially causing us to spend a lot of money for something that could be denied. We would need to prove or show why the snowcat will not pose a threat. What benefit the snowcat would be to the USFS, yet we can claim we can transport them and there gear if needed, as well as, for Search and Rescue. Another statement the Rangers pointed out in our meeting last week was that if we did have a snowcat we would have to stay on designated roads in the National Forest. We mentioned how we have ridden snowmobiles in these areas where motorized vehicles are permitted and they said we were riding illegally. I do not see what is illegal about riding on top of snow.
At this point we are thinking of just purchasing the snowcat and exploring the areas back there and ski where we can. Then let the Forest Service tell us we can/cannot be there.
At this point we are thinking of just purchasing the snowcat and exploring the areas back there and ski where we can. Then let the Forest Service tell us we can/cannot be there.
See the federal register as to how the feds handle snow cats. If CO has a law that is different then that law will probably take precendent over the feds law on snowmobiles. The rules in the federal register for the forest service are attached in this
http://www.fs.fed.us/recreation/programs/ohv/final.pdf
Here is a summary copied from the federal register that I keep handy in case they ever question me as WY state law follows the fed law for snowmobiles. I do know that Idaho law regulates width which prohibits snow cat usage on snowmobile trails and requires different license requirements. Check your state laws first and make sure they are in line with what you proposed to do.
The Department supports public
access to Federal land and supports the
rights of private landowners to control
access to their land. A designated
system of motor vehicle routes should
be based on legal public access.
Definition for ‘‘snowmobile.’’
access to Federal land and supports the
rights of private landowners to control
access to their land. A designated
system of motor vehicle routes should
be based on legal public access.
Definition for ‘‘snowmobile.’’
Comment.
Some respondents
suggested that the definition for
snowmobile in the proposed rule be
broadened to include other over-snow
vehicles, such as tracked ATVs and
grooming machines.
Response.
snowmobile in the proposed rule be
broadened to include other over-snow
vehicles, such as tracked ATVs and
grooming machines.
Response.
The proposed rule defined
snowmobile as ‘‘A motor vehicle that is
designed exclusively for use over snow
and that runs on a track or track and/
or a ski or skis.’’ This definition
encompassed large vehicles, such as
snow cats, not commonly referred to as
snowmobiles. However, the proposed
definition excluded vehicles capable of
conversion to over-snow use, such as
ATVs with tracks. Since the proposed
definition refers only to the vehicle
itself, and not to its use, the proposed
rule could be read to allow use of
snowmobiles in the absence of snow off
routes and outside areas designated for
motor vehicle use. The Department
believes that over-snow use by tracked
vehicles has similar environmental
effects, regardless of whether the vehicle
is designed exclusively for use over
snow.
Consequently, the final rule replaces
the exemption and definition for
snowmobiles with an exemption and
definition for over-snow vehicles
(which would include snowmobiles).
The final rule also removes the word
‘‘
designed exclusively for use over snow
and that runs on a track or track and/
or a ski or skis.’’ This definition
encompassed large vehicles, such as
snow cats, not commonly referred to as
snowmobiles. However, the proposed
definition excluded vehicles capable of
conversion to over-snow use, such as
ATVs with tracks. Since the proposed
definition refers only to the vehicle
itself, and not to its use, the proposed
rule could be read to allow use of
snowmobiles in the absence of snow off
routes and outside areas designated for
motor vehicle use. The Department
believes that over-snow use by tracked
vehicles has similar environmental
effects, regardless of whether the vehicle
is designed exclusively for use over
snow.
Consequently, the final rule replaces
the exemption and definition for
snowmobiles with an exemption and
definition for over-snow vehicles
(which would include snowmobiles).
The final rule also removes the word
‘‘
exclusively’’ from the definition, while
adding ‘‘while in use over snow,’’ so
adding ‘‘while in use over snow,’’ so
that the final definition for over-snow
vehicle includes motor vehicles that are
designed for use over snow and that run
on a track or track and/or a ski or skis,
while in use over snow. Use by oversnow
vehicles may be allowed,
restricted, or prohibited under part 212,
subpart C.
Definition for ‘‘temporary road or
trail.’’
Comment.
vehicle includes motor vehicles that are
designed for use over snow and that run
on a track or track and/or a ski or skis,
while in use over snow. Use by oversnow
vehicles may be allowed,
restricted, or prohibited under part 212,
subpart C.
Definition for ‘‘temporary road or
trail.’’
Comment.
Some respondents stated
that roads and trails in this category
must be managed as temporary and
removed as soon as their purpose is
served. Otherwise, these respondents
believed that they should be included in
the forest transportation atlas. Other
respondents stated that the final rule
should clarify use and designation of
temporary routes and explicitly prohibit
unauthorized motor vehicle use.
Response.
must be managed as temporary and
removed as soon as their purpose is
served. Otherwise, these respondents
believed that they should be included in
the forest transportation atlas. Other
respondents stated that the final rule
should clarify use and designation of
temporary routes and explicitly prohibit
unauthorized motor vehicle use.
Response.
The Department agrees that
temporary roads and trails must be
managed as temporary. In the rule, a
temporary road or trail is defined as a
road or trail necessary for emergency
operations or authorized by contract,
permit, lease, or other written
authorization. The Forest Service
requires that temporary roads and trails
be decommissioned once the emergency
that justified them or their written
authorization is no longer in effect.
NFS roads and NFS trails are the only
types of routes that will be designated
for motor vehicle use under this final
rule. Temporary roads and trails by
definition are not forest roads or trails
and therefore cannot be NFS roads or
NFS trails. Therefore, temporary roads
and trails will not be designated under
the final rule.
Some motor vehicle use on temporary
roads may be exempted from
designations and the corresponding
prohibition under the rule, since
§
managed as temporary. In the rule, a
temporary road or trail is defined as a
road or trail necessary for emergency
operations or authorized by contract,
permit, lease, or other written
authorization. The Forest Service
requires that temporary roads and trails
be decommissioned once the emergency
that justified them or their written
authorization is no longer in effect.
NFS roads and NFS trails are the only
types of routes that will be designated
for motor vehicle use under this final
rule. Temporary roads and trails by
definition are not forest roads or trails
and therefore cannot be NFS roads or
NFS trails. Therefore, temporary roads
and trails will not be designated under
the final rule.
Some motor vehicle use on temporary
roads may be exempted from
designations and the corresponding
prohibition under the rule, since
§
212.51(a)(5) and (a)(8) and § 261.13(e)
and (h) of the final rule exempt
emergency motor vehicle use and motor
vehicle use allowed under a written
authorization.emergency motor vehicle use and motor
vehicle use allowed under a written
Backcountry the federal register is your way in or if you do not read it they will use it to lock you out. Take the time to read it closely on how it relates to what you want to do. It is an open book and the laws are based on what is written in to the federal register. READ, UNDERSTAND and use for your benefit and take the advantage away from the FS....Just my .02 worth again today.........Bill
backcountry
New member
mtntopper - Thanks again!! I will print this at work tomorrow and take some time to thoroughly read it.
yellowpine O.T.S.
New member
It has been a month or so since your last post... How's it going? I would be glad to help you in any way I can.... We have been operating a business here in central Idaho and have had and are having to deal with the challenges that your thread mentions. Couple things to point out I believe it is SR2477 wich simply states any road in existance prior to the establishment of the USFS is under the juistiction of the county as a county road in our case this is what allows us to operate as it is a county matter not an USFS matter and we have letters from both the county and USFS that support and allow our operation yet just two days ago our conservation officer(fish&game LEO)said that he had been contacted by the USFS LEO and we are under investigation... go figure.. just as mentioned above the are a continued thorn in the side instead of helpful and cooperative public servants. The other is conectivity ie wildlife concerns usually Lynx and wolverines, this matter has in a large way been settled by a recent study that was released in Montana and in your case if you do not have Lynx or Wolverine habitat it will be a non issue.. it sounds as if you would not be connecting any roads other than top(dead end) to bottom.
I have a friend that is retired USFS and a proponent of over the snow travel(snowmobiling) and is a huge resource, I'm willing to ask him if I can give his PH# to you if you want it.
Good luck and I want to be on the first cat load!!!
I have a friend that is retired USFS and a proponent of over the snow travel(snowmobiling) and is a huge resource, I'm willing to ask him if I can give his PH# to you if you want it.
Good luck and I want to be on the first cat load!!!
backcountry
New member
yellowpine - Thanks for your interest. We had our meeting with the forest service and they brought in like 6-8 people. One of whom was a biologist. We too have to deal with there moaning about the Lynx habitats. However, the road we have is a county road to the old ski resort entrance. Then all ski runs and old roads are on National Forest land. The old ski hill was shutdown permanantly back in 84. Yet you can still see all the old runs and what looks to be an old cat road. This road is the same road I guess the forest service uses to drive up to the old ski hill warming hut/cabin at the top. So unfortunetely the roads are not county roads within the old ski hill, but instead National Forest property. The forest service immediately pointed out to us that on there map this area is designated no motorized vehicles with a snowmobile symbol crossed out with a red circle line.
My buddy that was working with me on this has pretty much given up. I too, am not sure what else to do. I definitely do not have money to just throw away. But I sure would love to get a cat and use it to transport myself and friends/family to ski/board. Makes me mad that this use to be an old ski resort years before and now they will not allow it. Seems they are only in all this for money from the big resorts, such as, Vail Resorts, etc.
My buddy that was working with me on this has pretty much given up. I too, am not sure what else to do. I definitely do not have money to just throw away. But I sure would love to get a cat and use it to transport myself and friends/family to ski/board. Makes me mad that this use to be an old ski resort years before and now they will not allow it. Seems they are only in all this for money from the big resorts, such as, Vail Resorts, etc.
yellowpine O.T.S.
New member
Bummer! I wonder if they went through the legal method of making it non motorized ie NEPA or CFR.... we found out here they had not gone through the legal process and instead just printed a backcountry travel map that showed areas/roads closed to motorized travel and as of now we are legal to travel untill they go through one of the only two legal methods of closing the roads/areas. Check it out...should not cost you anything but your time and you may find out that they have no legal authority to keep snowmobiles out.
kgracey
New member
I think they could switch the land usage to non-motorized without any environmental review. If a project has no potential impacts (i.e. loss of recreational opportunity wasn't an issue since the resort was dead) then they can make special findings and skip the EIS to change the land usage.
Going the other way, adding impacts, would certainly trigger environmental review.
Going the other way, adding impacts, would certainly trigger environmental review.
backcountry
New member
So from what kgracey stated above the Forest Service does not need to file an EIS or other documents to change the area status to non-motorized.