Backcountry Skiing

In order to take people back country skiing in a National Forest area what is the process? This would be for paying customers. Do you need a permit? If a permit is needed, what is the probability that the Forest Service would grant the user a permit?

Well yes, to take people skiing for hire you need a permit on federal land, in some states you will need an outfitters license on any land, and huge insurance coverage for all parties involved. This is required advertise and exchange money for transportation and guiding services. Your probability of getting a permit may be partly based on whether there is another outfitter nearby and whether or not your projected income is high enough to interest the parties issuing the permits. When you get going call me I'll be your first patron, I'll trade wrenching and driving for turns.
-Pat

Thanks Pat. This would be in Colorado. We will have to do some research and find out what we would need to do to kick start this into operation.

I don't have any direct experience with your situation, but I'm familiar with the process the USFS used to award a snowmobile guide service in our NF trail system here in Flathead National Forest. They used a competitive bidding process to award the guide permit to a single contractor. This is generally the same process they use for timber sales or other activities where a private party seeks to make money using public land.

Good Luck, I'm interested to learn what you find out.

-Paul

Thanks for your input.

After talking to our district ranger we are finding out that the area we want to setup this operation they do not want to allow any type of commercial business. So it is sounding like we are screwed.

It sounds like the Forest Service most likely will not permit our plan. So here is another idea we are thinking. What if we advertise to rent the snowcat, but we drive it?

Another idea is similar to families buying shares into a dairy cow. What if we sell shares of use into the snowcat.

Since the area we would use the snowcat is public land where snowmobiles go, would we be ok to run the snowcat in one of these fashions? I know currently if you own a snowcat and you buy a permit similar to the snowmobile permits you are then allowed to use the land.

As soon as you drop skiers off on the runs you are outfitting, whether self guided or not. If you are hauling them to, say, a cabin or hut then you can legally get paid for that. The only way around the permit process is to get compensated for your "legitimate shared expenses" for the trip. In other words you can't make any money, you have to spend the same $ amount as your guests, all expenses equally shared, not including the cost of the equipment, only those supplies you all use on that one trip. Trust me, you don't want to get busted for "illegal outfitting".
If you threaten to take the USFS to court over permitting your proposed use area, and they already allow snowmobiles in that area, then the USFS may have to grant you a permit. That has happened for an outfitter on Elk Butte, near the town of Elk River, Idaho.
Then there is the problem of snowmobilers driving all over your untracked powder and you never will be able to stop them. They will follow you snowcat tracks everywhere you go. But if you want to take your friends skiing and are operating without a profit then you can do what you want, just like the snowmobilers do.
One other possibility is the 501-C3 (non-profit entity) approach.
Bottom line is if someone, anyone, doesn't like what you are doing and turns you in, and you are in any way breaking a law, in this case a CFR (federal offense) you are looking at six months incarceration and a $6k fine, answering to a federal magistrate. You only get to have two such convictions and you will never be allowed a guides license or to get a permit.
But don't give up the legal approach just because some ranger doesn't like profit.
-Pat

Pat, thanks again. The main area we submitted for a proposal is an old ski resort that closed up back in the 80's. The area already has defined runs etc. I talked to the range yesterday and she said that they really do not want any form of commercial business up there. She mentioned to me the week before that they were looking at the wild life impact with the lynx. Seems ridiculous to me. The snowcat would travel a defined old logging road and people would just ski/board the old trails. I don't see what the problem is when the area we want to use is dinky compared to the monsterous ski resorts near by. From talking to her yesterday she was saying they in there office there have been talking and seems like they in the office decide our permit outcome.

Since they in there office do not like the idea, do we have further course of action to take or appeal? In this old ski hill area they have a steel pipe gate blocking the old entrance. People on sleds have gone around the gate and used the area to board and ski. The public can ski and board there but you have to walk.

So with the idea of the snowcat rental where they rent the cat and us owners drive it would still be considered illegal? The reason I ask this is because there are many in these areas who rent snowmobiles to ride. I could careless about making money. Just to help us cover our expense on purchasing a snowcat and the upkeep.

Like I said above maybe gather enough people together to go in on a snowcat shares. But the problem I foresee with this is I would probably be the one fixing the cat when stuff breaks.

You might get away with the 'rental' idea, but I'd dig a bit deeper into the snowmobile rental. What I'd suggest is that you find out the laws regarding the snowmobile rentals.

If the area allows snowmobile rentals, then there is probably no reason why it wouldn't allow a snowcat. Be sure to have the rental agreement you write up for the snowcat to say something that you will provide a driver as a 'complimentary' (no added fee) part of the rental agreement if the person renting the unit has no experience operating a similar model snowcat.

Check with a lawyer and double check with the park rangers, etc to make sure that a 'snowcat' can actually travel in the area where the 'renters' would take the snowcat.

B_Skurka - I like your rental snowcat info. I know for sure you can take rented sleds in this area. I see people all the time renting sleds from the Denver and Buena Vista area and riding in these areas. As for talking to a lawyer I have know idea who or what lawyer to even get in touch with. I guess I will do a google search to see if there are some open forum for something of this nature in regards to legal questions.

I talked to another friend and he was saying there are some people in the Vail area that started a "Club Cat" where a number of people own the snowcat. I like this idea too, however, I would probably be the one stuck with the maintenance and repairs on the cat. I would just have to get the others to help compensate and pay the parts bills.

backcountry said:

I talked to another friend and he was saying there are some people in the Vail area that started a "Club Cat" where a number of people own the snowcat. I like this idea too, however, I would probably be the one stuck with the maintenance and repairs on the cat. I would just have to get the others to help compensate and pay the parts bills.

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A 'Club Cat' could be very viable. If you are considering going into business anyway then why not go into business as the 'landlord' of the 'Club Cat' where you sell off 'shares' of the snowcat? Think of it like a condo association. If there is a building with 12 units in it, each person pays 1/12 of the bill for property taxes, common area repairs, legal fees, etc. Simply divide up ownership in the snowcat so that each person gets a 'limited' legal right to take the snowcat out. Each person is assessed an annual fee for repairs, upkeep, etc. You would have the responsibility to trailer it specific locations, you would have the responsibility to maintain it, fuel it after each outing etc. The 'tenent' would then pay for damage that is above and beyond the 'normal wear and tear' and would also be assessed a refueling and delivery fee for your trouble.

Basically you are still in business to take people out, but the rental model is slightly different. If you had to drive the unit for the people, then you'd also assess them a drivers fee on a per-day basis not unlike 'fractional ownership' in a private jet.

After talking to some more people I think we are going to try to do the snowcat club. Where we get 7-10 people to all go in on the snowcat. Also talked to the forest ranger this morning and informed them that we would do a club and not charge, so no commercial at all. We asked if we should re-submit a proposal and she stated to wait to hear back from her. So hopefully we can get access to this old ski resort area and have our own playground.

B_Skurka - I like your idea. I would rather have more ownership in the cat too. Yet I do not want to be the one having to transport the cat for everyone. With the price of fuel these days that can get expensive. But I like the idea of the time share club ownership. I will run this by everyone. It sure would be sweet to get access to the old ski area. Thanks again!!

I have some general questions in relation to back country snow cat skiing? I believe we have some members on the forum that are doing this either as a business, for free, for their own pleasure or as a hobby type business. I would like to hear some input from experienced people who have either done through research or actually done this type of business. If you would rather send me a pm that would be great also. Back country skiing is something I just never realized that the market may be large enough to actually be a real business and I want to know if it really is potentially worthwhile.

1.What is the viability of such a business? Can you make any money?

2. What type of total costs beyond the cat and transport are required such as permits and insurance? Is this normally done on public lands such as national forests or private?

3. What do you charge per skier per day for transport? How many hours per day are they actually able to ski when you do the transport out and back? What does this make for snow cat usage hour per day?

4. Please give me some info from your prospective as to who your customer base is by demographics of income and age? Who do you cater to? How do you reach these customers to let them know this service is available such as advertising or promotion?

This probably goes without saying but having to call your buddy's wife and tell her he is not coming home is not something that should be taken lightly. What kind of avalanche certification or classes will any of you be taking?
Who has transceivers? shovels? probes? knows how to dig a snow pit and check for slab layers??? ever done a transceiver search even for fun?
This isnt all fun and games........
Just my two cents .........now go have FUN!!!!!

Well a number of us have taken level ! classes and we all use beacons. We would surely bring along shovels and probes. All we are trying to do is have fun and avoid the resorts and there over built villages. What happened to the old ski hills and resorts.

There are some around, but they are going fast..... Libby Montana has a great little ski hill..... Turner mountain I believe..
I run into a lot of people who dont belong in the backcountry and I guess I should probably just keep my mouth shut but those people always seem to bring there unsuspecting friends along with them.........

I grew up skiing a lot at Bridger Bowl. I have not been there since the late 80's. I've heard they built a new chalet. Does anyone know if they allow motorhomes to park and stay for a few days there?

They used too but so did several others that wont let you now. Give them a call and let us know. Here are some other good places to go.
http://www.bridgerbowl.com/
http://www.skilookout.com/new/
http://www.skiturner.com/index.htm
you will find some really small and really cool mom/pop operations here
http://www.montanaskiareas.com/

Sad to see the resorts move to bigger corporate type settings with large lodges and villages. Seems like a lot also charge for parking. I just remember when we were kids we would stay in our motorhome at Red Lodge and Bridger Bowl. Thanks for the links!

Here's a Colorado company that does snowcat skiing in the San Juan National Forest...

http://www.sanjuanski.com/

Here is one in North Idaho that is actually for sale........ Great Terrain
http://www.peaksnowcats.com/

Yup, seems to me they were getting out of the ski and yurt business to concentrate on remote telecom access. So there may be a turnkey business, less snowcats, for 'backcountry'.

Would love to buy a turnkey place. First I would have to sell our place here. We are at 9500' 35 acres all trees, thousands of trees. Full log house 5 bedrooms, 3 baths, eco block concrete basement, wrap around deck, 40' x 60' wood garage with 18' ceilings painted to match the house all plumbed with floor drains and bathroom, house and garage heated fully off outdoor Central Boiler. Any takers?

Nope, this one comes with house, shop, yurt, and snowcats.

bobpierce said:

Yup, seems to me they were getting out of the ski and yurt business to concentrate on remote telecom access. So there may be a turnkey business, less snowcats, for 'backcountry'.

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backcountry said:

Would love to buy a turnkey place. First I would have to sell our place here. We are at 9500' 35 acres all trees, thousands of trees. Full log house 5 bedrooms, 3 baths, eco block concrete basement, wrap around deck, 40' x 60' wood garage with 18' ceilings painted to match the house all plumbed with floor drains and bathroom, house and garage heated fully off outdoor Central Boiler. Any takers?

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Pictures? location? Pm me if you wish

backcountry said:

Would love to buy a turnkey place. First I would have to sell our place here. We are at 9500' 35 acres all trees, thousands of trees. Full log house 5 bedrooms, 3 baths, eco block concrete basement, wrap around deck, 40' x 60' wood garage with 18' ceilings painted to match the house all plumbed with floor drains and bathroom, house and garage heated fully off outdoor Central Boiler. Any takers?

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where's this place located sounds great how much?

Does sound great....maybe you could sell all of us shares in the house instead of the cat......... got any pictures... we like pictures

For those interested more info on our place. We are in Bailey CO. Our house is on a private 1.5 mile road at the very end. We back up against the National Forest (Pike). Just up behind our house is Mt. Logan and the best view is that of Mt. Rosalie and the whole valley. You can only see 5 houses from our house. The nearest neighbor is 1/2 mile away. Over half our property is flat. The other half is sloped down to Deer Creek (North facing). The slope ranges from 8-30 degree. We have thought about cutting in our own ski runs this summer. The vertical drop is about 600-800'.

Again the property has thousands of trees. Hence the reason I put in a Central Boiler. The boiler is a 500,000 btu, which holds 400 gallons of water. The outdoor boiler is tied into the house and garage. The house is a full log, meaning from the basement concrete walls to the roof line. The logs are from BC, and are 20+" in diameter. I built the house myself back in 2003. The house basement is ECO block, which has 2.5" foam on the inside and 2.5" on the outside with 8" of concrete in the center. The walls are 10' high. The basement is baseboard hot water and the rest of the house is infloor radiat hot water. The house has two Quadra Fire wood stoves, which we do not really use any longer since I put in the outdoor boiler. The house has 11 heating zones. The kitchen I built out of beatle kill tongue and groove. The master suite has its own 5 peice bath and deck. The wrap around deck wraps around just over half the house.

The garage I built last summer. The walls inside walls are over 18' high. The walls are built ouf of LVL studs. The garage has 11 windows. Two 14' x 14' garage doors on either end of the building, so a person can drive through the building. The garage is plumbed with 3 floor drains, shope sink and bathroom with shower. The garage is also heated from the outdoor wood boiler.

I also have 1 40' and 1 20' steel storage containers on the property behind the garage. A 12'x20' shed. A large dog condo. The driveway is a round-about. Much more, but I'm tired of typing. Let me know if anyone is interested.

Here are some pics. The house pics are 2 or 3 years old.