Another nail in your coffin !

And tell me again why I am suppose to love our system of goverment .

We are the best ! BULLSHIT ,........... and this is another reason why . I can't believe you "Keep letting the goverment tell you sheeple how great you got it ".
And you wonder why we are so fucked up in this country ?????

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/americans-giving-passports-jump-sixfold-105958873.html

Timely post Al as Trish and I were talking about this just the other day. Back when I was growing up and well into my young adult life, nobody would ever considered leaving the USA, there wasn't anywhere better to go. But we both agree that if we weren't so heavily invested in our current property that we would look into moving to another country where the tax codes are more favorable and the government is less annoying.

It's all about money. These folks have made a fortune right here and now are tired of paying taxes and resign their citizenship to get out of taxes. Would they have made the same amount of money in any other country in the world? Maybe, but I have my doubts.

I cannot afford to leave and with my family here I would not leave if I could. I'm frustrated with our government and do not believe myself to be a sheeple just because I choose to stay. To each their own.

Doc said:

It's all about money. These folks have made a fortune right here and now are tired of paying taxes and resign their citizenship to get out of taxes. Would they have made the same amount of money in any other country in the world? Maybe, but I have my doubts.

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We both got something different from this article Doc. The way I read it is that people who have US citizenship are tired of paying (US) taxes on money that they made "outside" of the US. (See quote below)

Swiss Government said:

"The United States wishes to ensure that all income earned worldwide by U.S. taxpayers on accounts held abroad can be taxed by the United States," the Swiss government said on April 10.

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I can only talk from the personal experience of being married to an American citizen residing in the UK a number of years ago.

Yes, my wife had to pay US taxes just like everybody else but the amount of taxes she paid was credited against the amount of British taxes that she would have had to pay. So, she paid her US taxes and an additional tax to the British IRS so that the total amount was equivalent to amount she would have had to pay if she were a British citizen. Does that make sense?

I don't know if other countries in Europe have a similar arrangement but I suspect they do. They're not giving up their US citizenship to save on US taxes because they then become liable for full taxes in their country of residency which are usually higher than taxes in the US. They end up paying the same total amount of tax but only in one county and none of that money comes back to the US.

It gets even more complicated but that's about as simply as I can state it.

What I'm saying is that there is more to the story than people giving up their US citizenship simply to avoid US taxes. I don't know what it is but there must be other additional factors.

Gee Al...I thought you would be in Panima by now!!!! Had no Idea ya was still here in this dump of a country!!!!!! seean as I got nothin for them to take...guess Ill stay right here in the ozarks......Have ya bout got your ranch sold??I guess being poor has its benifits Mom and I sold a little two bed room house for 1.00 and other considerations, and picked up some lots on the water for 1.00 and other considerations....wonder what our cap...gains will turn out to be?

House movers should be here next week to get the house...cant weight to see the look on the aprasers face next year....

squerly said:

We both got something different from this article Doc. The way I read it is that people who have US citizenship are tired of paying (US) taxes on money that they made "outside" of the US. (See quote below)

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I sure do not know or understand all the tax laws. Lawyers have made the laws to benefit some with loop holes on purpose for a few. Maybe this is a bad law and needs changed. If it is changed will these folks want to come back to the US? Do some of them drop their citizenship but still spend most of their time in the US anyway? I'm making the assumption that if it were not for the US in some way shape or form they would not have made the money.

So it is like they are trying to get out of paying the piper. It does not affect me other than monies not collected will have to be made up by those of us here. Lawyers find ways for some to avoid taxes, lawyers in congress find other ways to get taxes. A vicious cycle. A flat tax sure seems like it would simplify things.

Doc said:

I sure do not know or understand all the tax laws. Lawyers have made the laws to benefit some with loop holes on purpose for a few. Maybe this is a bad law and needs changed. If it is changed will these folks want to come back to the US? Do some of them drop their citizenship but still spend most of their time in the US anyway? I'm making the assumption that if it were not for the US in some way shape or form they would not have made the money.

So it is like they are trying to get out of paying the piper. It does not affect me other than monies not collected will have to be made up by those of us here. Lawyers find ways for some to avoid taxes, lawyers in congress find other ways to get taxes. A vicious cycle. A flat tax sure seems like it would simplify things.

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I think the message here is the one that you have to read between the lines to hear. It's excessive taxation that is making people want to leave cities/counties/states and ultimately, the USA.

Excessive Taxation is exactly what I am talking about ! Anybody actually remember why we separated from England in the 1700's .


And I leave for Panama in 9 days and will be picking up my Residency papers . Also most Ex Pats I know are not rich but they are living a very comfortable life on less than $2000 a month .

Doc said:

I sure do not know or understand all the tax laws. Lawyers have made the laws to benefit some with loop holes on purpose for a few. Maybe this is a bad law and needs changed. If it is changed will these folks want to come back to the US? Do some of them drop their citizenship but still spend most of their time in the US anyway? I'm making the assumption that if it were not for the US in some way shape or form they would not have made the money.

So it is like they are trying to get out of paying the piper. It does not affect me other than monies not collected will have to be made up by those of us here. Lawyers find ways for some to avoid taxes, lawyers in congress find other ways to get taxes. A vicious cycle. A flat tax sure seems like it would simplify things.

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Actually Doc I had a whopping $6.35 cents to my name in 1988 after a messy divorce . I busted my ass to get back but the majority of money came from investing . In America , I paid every dime of tax on it . If I were living in Panama or quite a few other countries those investment funds would have been tax free .

People who really want to get ahead in life can anywhere . It just took me longer in the U.S.

BigAl said:

Actually Doc I had a whopping $6.35 cents to my name in 1988 after a messy divorce . I busted my ass to get back but the majority of money came from investing . In America , I paid every dime of tax on it . If I were living in Panama or quite a few other countries those investment funds would have been tax free .

People who really want to get ahead in life can anywhere . It just took me longer in the U.S.

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Al, I think highly of you. We have had the opportunity to work together on a few things since I've met you via the forums and I feel I have gotten to know the type of man you are and I have come to respect you. You are looked up to by many and you always choose to do what I consider is the right thing. You take the high road. You have done what is right for so many people that you helped and now it is time for you to do the right thing for you. Please do not take my views on this issue as my judgement on you or anyone one else. I am probably behind on the curve as I have been many times before.

At this point in time it is unfathomable to me to consider moving anywhere and giving up my US citizenship. That is just me. Fact is I am not in a position where I could even imagine it possible to actually make such a move so take that for what it is worth. But I do believe that even if I hit it big and it were possible for me to leave the country I cannot imagine doing so. I would feel I was turning my back on this nation. I might be a fool and they are raping me every which way possible but I prefer to stay and have hope that we as a people can help a change for the better for our country. I am optimistic and very likely naive but that's the way it is.

I am getting old and fat but I might have one good fight left in me...I would gladly give it to my fellow good Americans and unleash it on those who have it coming. I will not run. I don't give a dam about the money.

Doc said:

Al, I think highly of you. We have had the opportunity to work together on a few things since I've met you via the forums and I feel I have gotten to know the type of man you are and I have come to respect you. You are looked up to by many and you always choose to do what I consider is the right thing. You take the high road. You have done what is right for so many people that you helped and now it is time for you to do the right thing for you. Please do not take my views on this issue as my judgement on you or anyone one else. I am probably behind on the curve as I have been many times before.

At this point in time it is unfathomable to me to consider moving anywhere and giving up my US citizenship. That is just me. Fact is I am not in a position where I could even imagine it possible to actually make such a move so take that for what it is worth. But I do believe that even if I hit it big and it were possible for me to leave the country I cannot imagine doing so. I would feel I was turning my back on this nation. I might be a fool and they are raping me every which way possible but I prefer to stay and have hope that we as a people can help a change for the better for our country. I am optimistic and very likely naive but that's the way it is.

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I know and respect that Doc . Its just the continued raping of the middle class that is killing this country . Does our goverment even relieze how hard the average American works to make ends meet . It use to be Moms stay at home and Dad's worked and everybody made ends meet . Now both Mom and Dad work because there is no other way to pay the bills . The goverment keeps adding higher taxes and giving less. I don't see any politions hard up to make ends meet . Hell they even have their own retirement fund because they feel they deserve a little more than Joe American .

The war is coming , that is for sure . I just hoped it would not be against my own goverment .

Even those with low incomes and people who live on Social Security have to pay taxes because there are sales taxes. It is getting to be outrageous.

What does piss me off is taking from our vets to give to the muslim brotherhood..

Al - although we have never met, I have always respected you for being "a stand up guy". I don't think I have to define that.

America is definitely in trouble. I read here and otyer places about folks that have food guns and ammunition stored. I read about people jumping "The sinking ship." Lets get real here. However much food you have stored, its not enough. Hoeever much ammo you have, however many guns and people to shoot you have, you don't have enough. Towns and cities of hungry people will overrun you and take your food and guns if the worst happens.

We cannot pay our debts. From what I read, neither can the rest of the world. Manufacturing nations (we gave that up) need consumers, making product means nothing if you have no one to sell to. Go to Panama, become a citizen there. If you dont take enough hard goods like seed and livestock to be self sufficient, you will be worse off than those in America who have what is necessary to rebuild after they learn, the hard way, that they have to do it.

I dont mean that as a negative. Jyst how I see it.

Allen I have to agree with you last time I was in anchorage, I met a nice cab driver I noticed he didn't have the usual accent. so I asked where he was from turns out it was Croatia, he told me had he known what life was really like here he would have stayed put. Yes this country is in trouble we need jobs here at home, we also need workers not the lazy younger generation who wants to sit on their asse and play games. every one needs to be taxed the same not just the rich or middle class, while we are at it maybe the poor can chip in a few hundred a year from welfare checks and let's stop throwing away our money at other country's. may be we drop out of the Un too money's tight in my house hold the government needs to buckle down too.

Very well said Don.

Adillo303 said:

Al - although we have never met, I have always respected you for being "a stand up guy". I don't think I have to define that.

America is definitely in trouble. I read here and otyer places about folks that have food guns and ammunition stored. I read about people jumping "The sinking ship." Lets get real here. However much food you have stored, its not enough. Hoeever much ammo you have, however many guns and people to shoot you have, you don't have enough. Towns and cities of hungry people will overrun you and take your food and guns if the worst happens.

We cannot pay our debts. From what I read, neither can the rest of the world. Manufacturing nations (we gave that up) need consumers, making product means nothing if you have no one to sell to. Go to Panama, become a citizen there. If you dont take enough hard goods like seed and livestock to be self sufficient, you will be worse off than those in America who have what is necessary to rebuild after they learn, the hard way, that they have to do it.

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The one thing I have noticed over the last 11 years of owning a home in Panama is the willingness to share by its people . Not everything , but a perfect example is food . When a local fisherman does well I have personally seen them pull close to the dock and start throwing out "Red Snapper" to the folks fishing off the dock who rarely catch big fish . They try hard not to waste anything that the good Lord provides . I like that !

I was asked by my workmen if they could use some of my "hot sauce" they had seen in my make shift camping spot when I was first building the house on the island . I handed over the bottle and started to leave but they stopped me and insisted I eat lunch with them even though all I had done was let them use the hot sauce . I them found out that each person bought something each day to add to the pot and we all shared . From that day on , I was the hot sauce guy . 20 guys and one bottle of hot sauce a day . Hella a deal !!

Don't get me wrong fellas , I love America . I don't see anything changing , but war is coming . Could you kill you fellow American because his view if different from yours ?He will be nothing more than the message or soldier doing his job that the crooks in goverment have sent fleece you . I do not ever want to be put in that position . Somebody will come from goverment to collect what they want someday .Goverment is like a fungus , it just gets bigger if not corrected and I see no cure in sight .

Seems like we( Goverment) are a Hella lot more concerned about fixin the rest of the world and their problems ,than we do our own .

Its only a matter a time .

Very good points Al. Thanks!!!

Al, all of your points are very good, thank you for posting them.

I have also benefited from offering help to anyone that I can. It is really the way that we were intended to be.

What I am saying is this. Are we really worse off than the rest of the world. I hear of hard times all over the globe. Will those fishermen give away fish if their food source drys up or is drying up?

I also agree about government getting "too big for it's britches". I don't think that walking away is the answer. Any government can do that. What is necessary to stop it is simply to use the tools at hand. Vote. A 90% turnout for an election, any national election, in which all the people up for office were ousted would work wonders.

I dislike the term sheeple which so many throw around.There is an awful lot of misplaced loyalty in that people show in loyalty to any political party. If a toaster was broken, it would be discarded. Government is broken, it needs to be replace. The last statistic that I saw was that 90% of better of all incumbents get reelected. Politicians will listen to tow things, whomever is giving them money and whomever can help them keep their job. Granted, on the first election we would just get different politicians. They would be aware that the people are watching. Lots of people complain, just not to their representatives.