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Are college tuitions worth it? 8 alternatives to college

Melensdad

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Recently my family attended an event sponsored by my daughter's high school regarding what it takes to get a child into a "highly competitive" college. Some guy in the back of the room, during the Q&A time, asked if spending so much for college actually makes economic sense. What with so many 'humanities' and 'literature' majors out in the job world flipping burgers, why spend $50K plus a year for a "good" college degree when their career path will lead them to a job that pays $35,000 a year after they gain experience as an unpaid intern/volunteer, etc.

Then I stumbled upon a blog. I think this guy makes some great points, but I wonder why he limits his choices to 8 when there is a very obvious 9th choice . . . joining the military. Seems that a lot of folks thrive in the service and grow up and while they went in kids they came out men (and women).

Agree or Disagree?

I am a college grad and whole heartedly agree with Mr. Altucher.

In my opinion, the college education is over-rated.

James Altucher's 8 Alternatives to College


Posted Feb 08, 2011 08:00am EST by Aaron Task

It's been nearly a year since Formula Capital's James Altucher discussed his theory on why sending your kids to college is a bad idea. The segment proved to be one of Tech Ticker's most popular...and controversial of 2010. (See: Rethinking College as Student-Loan Burdens Rise)

More recently, a report based on the book Academically Adrift: Limited Learning on College Campuses found that after two years of college, 45% of students learned little to nothing. After four years, 36% of students learned almost nothing. (See: Brain Drain: Most College Students Learn Next to Nothing, New Study Says.)
Meanwhile, the cost of college keeps rising -- 20 times the rate of inflation and much faster than say healthcare costs -- and student loan debt keeps growing. As of mid-2010, U.S. student loan debt totaled $850 billion vs. $828 billion for credit card debt, according to the Federal Reserve.

So with more people coming around to the idea that maybe Altucher is onto something (vs. being on something), the money manager and author is back with a follow-up: The 8 Alternatives to College:
  • -- Start a business.
  • -- Work for a charity.
  • -- Travel the world.
  • -- Create art.
  • -- Master a sport.
  • -- Master a game.
  • -- Write a book.
  • -- Make people laugh.
"Whenever I suggest 'don't send your kids to college' a lot of very smart people invariably come back with the response, ‘well what else should they do?'," Altucher writes on his blog. "So I figure I will help people out by coming up with a list and try to handle the criticisms that will certainly arise even before they arise. I can do this because I have a college degree. So I've learned how to think and engage in repartee with other intelligent people."
In the accompanying video, Altucher "repartees" with Henry and me about his alternatives to college and addresses the most powerful thing working on behalf of higher education: The huge gap in employment between those with and without college degrees.​
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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I'm not sure anyone needs to go to an elite ivy league school for an undergraduate degree. Certainly not for a liberal arts degree. I think the key is to go to a school that is "good enough" that if you want to go on to a graduate program at a more elite school that you will be able to get in.

If my kids aren't able to cut it at school they will be pushed heavily for option 9 (military) - I wish someone had pushed me into the military when I was 18. I wasted at least 4 years screwing around (but I did have fun) that could have been better spent learning some other skills and discipline.
 

rback33

Hangin in Tornado Alley
SUPER Site Supporter
I'm not sure anyone needs to go to an elite ivy league school for an undergraduate degree. Certainly not for a liberal arts degree. I think the key is to go to a school that is "good enough" that if you want to go on to a graduate program at a more elite school that you will be able to get in.

If my kids aren't able to cut it at school they will be pushed heavily for option 9 (military) - I wish someone had pushed me into the military when I was 18. I wasted at least 4 years screwing around (but I did have fun) that could have been better spent learning some other skills and discipline.

+1... I totally mirror that statement...

I think this is an excellent thought. My degree is not an entire waste of money... but damn near it.
 

BigAl

Gone But Not Forgotten
SUPER Site Supporter
Great Question Bob !
Military is a great way to go to get the funds needed to expand your education in college . My son is now working on his Master's while fully employeed in Law Enforcement .

I do feel that most colleges are way overrated and charge way too much . I am a big believer in "On the Job" training and college night school at the same time . It shows me the person is serious about expanding their career .


College did not hurt me any and it did help in a couple classes I took , but I could have gotten that in night school just as easily .
 

mak2

Active member
Colleges are way too expensive on all levels, but........ Those who spend their money wisely get the most for it. So much depends on your major and later employment plans.
 

Melensdad

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Colleges are way too expensive on all levels, but........ Those who spend their money wisely get the most for it. So much depends on your major and later employment plans.

BINGO!

My daughter is being recruited by 4 universities. NYU wants her and they have great specialities like "social work" but their tuitions are outrageous. How can a social worker ever pay back students loans when the loans total $100,000 - $150,000 - or more but the jobs pay $25,000 to $35,000 a year???
 

JEV

Mr. Congeniality
GOLD Site Supporter
At the end of the day, all those highly educated people will still have to pay $80 per hour for the plumber to come and fix the toilet that some highly educated drunk broke at the last bong party. Pay about the same to get any electrical work done and to get your car fixed. I wonder why the hard trades were not on that list? High schools around here have dropped their Industrial Arts programs, and extended their computer labs. They have consolidated those classes into one school where the kids have to be bussed if they want to learn a trade.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
Or, you can go to an uppity private college like Bob. You know how snooty all those grads are. :whistling:

*edit*
To this subject, have you noticed what my signature is now? My trashman has a house in Aruba and a nice yacht.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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Honestly, a good government union job would be the best route. Get in early retire in your 40's and live off the awesome pension.

Auto workers seem to be doing OK:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-...nuses-said-to-reach-as-much-as-50-of-pay.html

GM, Chrysler Salaried Workers' Bonuses Said to Reach 50% of Pay

By Keith Naughton, David Welch and Tim Higgins - Feb 11, 2011 11:05 AM PT
General Motors Co. and Chrysler Group LLC, which each received government-funded bailouts, may award some managers bonuses of as much as 50 percent of their salary, said four people familiar with the plans.
GM plans to pay bonuses to most managers equal to 15 percent to 20 percent of their annual salary and as high as 50 percent to less than 1 percent of its 26,000 U.S. salaried employees, said one of the people, who asked not to be named revealing internal plans. Bonuses for Chrysler’s 10,755 salaried workers will average about $10,000, with a small group getting as much as half of their salary, one of the people said.
The payouts come as GM, Chrysler and Ford Motor Co. prepare for contract talks this year with the United Auto Workers, which is seeking a share of the industry’s growing prosperity. Ford, the only U.S. automaker to avoid bankruptcy in 2009, is expected to pay bonuses equal to 10 percent or more of base pay to some salaried staff, said a person familiar with the plan.
“The union is going to be very angry about this,” Gary Chaison, a professor of industrial relations at Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts, said in an interview yesterday. “If these kinds of bonuses are paid to salaried workers, then the union’s demands will increase, knowing management can’t claim an inability to pay.”
Tom Wilkinson, a spokesman for GM, declined to comment. Gualberto Ranieri, a Chrysler spokesman, said in an e-mail that “details regarding salaried performance awards are considered confidential.” Marcey Evans, a Ford spokeswoman, said the automaker will pay salaried workers’ bonuses March 10 and wouldn’t reveal details.
Bonus Timing

Chrysler’s bonuses may be paid as soon as today, one of the people said. Bonuses for GM’s salaried workers without management duties may be as low as 5 percent of their annual pay, one of the people said.
GM reorganized in bankruptcy in 2009 with $49.5 billion in government aid, while Chrysler got $12.5 billion in assistance for its reorganization that year. Each is subject to pay restrictions for top executives after receiving funding from the U.S. government’s Troubled Asset Relief Program, which also aided banks.
The U.S. Treasury, which holds 33 percent of GM, would need to sell its remaining 500 million shares for an average of $53.07 to break even, according to a GM regulatory filing and data compiled by Bloomberg.
GM rose 39 cents to $36.27 at 1:44 p.m. in composite trading on the New York Stock Exchange. The shares have risen 9.9 percent since they began trading Nov. 17.
‘Taxpayers First’

“The taxpayers should be repaid before bonuses go out,” Senator Chuck Grassley, an Iowa Republican, said today in an e- mailed statement. “Unfortunately, the Treasury Department never asserted ownership rights. It didn’t put the taxpayers first. As a result, the car companies are allowed to do what they want, including giving lots of executive bonuses. It sends a message that those in charge take shareholders, in this case the taxpayers, for a sucker. ”
GM, which earned $4.77 billion in the first three quarters of last year, plans to pay its 53,000 unionized hourly U.S. staff profit-sharing checks of more than $3,000 per worker, two people familiar with the plan have said. That is about 5 percent of an hourly worker’s annual pay, said Sean McAlinden, chief economist for the Center for Automotive Research.
Chrysler Profit-Sharing

Chrysler, which lost $652 million in 2010, said Jan. 31 that it would pay each of its union workers a bonus averaging $750. That is about 1.3 percent of an hourly UAW worker’s annual pay. Chrysler Chief Executive Officer Sergio Marchionne said that all eligible employees would receive a performance bonus for 2010, when the automaker worked on introducing 16 new or refreshed models.
Ford, which posted 2010 net income of $6.56 billion, said it will pay an average of $5,000 to each of its 40,600 hourly workers, or about 8.3 percent of their base pay.
“If bonuses are a lot more on average for all of salaried workers, the UAW workers will be cheesed off and want a bigger signing bonus this fall,” McAlinden said in an interview yesterday. “It’s going to be tense down at the plant.”
UAW President Bob King has said he aims to recover some of the $7,000 to $30,000 in concessions each worker gave up since 2005 to help the U.S. automakers survive. The union surrendered raises, bonuses and cost-of-living adjustments. The UAW also agreed to a two-tier wage system in which new hires earn about $14 an hour, half the amount paid to senior production workers.
“All the sacrifices that our members made to turn these companies around were part of the process that’s really led to this amazing turnaround,” King said in an interview last month. “We want our membership to share in a very meaningful way in the upside of these companies.”
 

Melensdad

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Or, you can go to an uppity private college like Bob. You know how snooty all those grads are. :whistling:
Like Bob AND BRENT. :hammer:

FWIW, my daughter, while only a sophomore, is being actively contacted by 4 fairly snooty/uppity private universities right now. I did not realize they started recruitment so early in high school?!? All are saying (not yet offering) they can come up with financial aid if she keeps up her grade point average. At least one is interested in her grades and her fencing (but will offer a scholarship for grades).

My daughter is actually considering careers that would have reasonably high pay levels so she could pay back student loans but it seems like many kids, with their parents blessing, go to expensive colleges and pursue degrees that really have no hope of attaining high enough levels of pay to repay their student loans. To those parents, and their children, is whom this thread topic really applies. Seems to me that they are sending their kids off to schools to have them grow up and they are paying dearly for an education that has very limited practical appeal.

I've been doing my best to beat into my child's head that if she chooses to go to an expensive college then she better be able to justify the costs. Getting a degree in 'humanities' or 'literature' or 'social work' is not going to be something that I will approve of if the cost of the education comes out of my pocket UNLESS that education is at a lower priced state school. I want to see some economic return for money I spend. Now if she manages to get a generous scholarship package from a school that is willing to waste huge amounts of money supporting her even if she changes her mind and decides to follow a low income career then that is their foolish choice.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
If my kids aren't able to cut it at school they will be pushed heavily for option 9 (military) - I wish someone had pushed me into the military when I was 18. I wasted at least 4 years screwing around (but I did have fun) that could have been better spent learning some other skills and discipline.

If I could go back 22 years and talk to the 18 year old Av8r, I'd be telling him to go ahead and do the military thing that he was considering.

I had scored in the 98th percentile on the ASFAB (?) test and was being heavily courted by the Army for their Warrant Officer aviation program (I had a private and instrument pilot license by the time I graduated high-school).

Where would I be now? I wonder... :neutral:

For me, college was a waste when I was 18. I needed more focus and maturity. I wound up dropping out and going to the "Tech" college. I finished my BS degree later in life.
 

rback33

Hangin in Tornado Alley
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LMAO Bob... I don't know how many people read that and knew that you and Brent went to the same school....

I have a BS in Biology from a 4 yr liberal arts college that was probably more expensive than it was worth.. especially if you consider I don't even use the damn thing. That is the case with many of the degrees from that school. OTOH... we are VERY successful at getting people admitted to Vet School and Med School... A votech school is probably the best way to go by learning a real trade.
 

jpr62902

Jeanclaude Spam Banhammer
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There's an interesting statistic in there that I had asked about in another thread, but didn't get an answer. College graduates have an unemployment rate of 4.2%. High school graduates (with no college) have an unemployment rate of just under 10%.
 

Dargo

Like a bad penny...
GOLD Site Supporter
There's an interesting statistic in there that I had asked about in another thread, but didn't get an answer. College graduates have an unemployment rate of 4.2%. High school graduates (with no college) have an unemployment rate of just under 10%.

As a college grad with some post graduate study, I have not been employed in 14 years. I stopped my post grad study to take a corporate position (sucked! - I cannot be an ass kisser, which assures you'll never climb the ladder in most corporate settings). I was "downsized" on May 18, 1997. I've never applied for a job since nor ever applied for any unemployment. How many are like me that would technically have been unemployed but never declared myself as unemployed nor accepted unemployment?

Perhaps that's where a good education along with being a jack of all trades but a master of none came into play. Many who had my same education would have NEVER taken some of the jobs I took rather than rely on the government or others to pay me. I literally cleaned septic tanks, operated almost any piece of equipment, repaired nearly any piece of heavy machinery, built computers, roofed houses, installed tile and wood floors etc. while I slowly built up my main marketing firm.

Perhaps part of my education was learning that there is no person on this earth that owes me anything. Others have not shared my outlook.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
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If I could go back 22 years and talk to the 18 year old Av8r, I'd be telling him to go ahead and do the military thing that he was considering.

I had scored in the 98th percentile on the ASFAB (?) test and was being heavily courted by the Army for their Warrant Officer aviation program (I had a private and instrument pilot license by the time I graduated high-school).

Where would I be now? I wonder... :neutral:

For me, college was a waste when I was 18. I needed more focus and maturity. I wound up dropping out and going to the "Tech" college. I finished my BS degree later in life.

I kind of thought about this. I did actually talk to the Canadian Forces recruiter when I was 18/19 but it was the late 80's and the Canadian Forces were seriously downsizing. I had some knee issues and no cadet background. They didn't really want me then. Times have changed but in reflection I would have really have wanted to get into the CF back then. At that age, I really didn't know what I wanted to do.

I did end up getting my M.S. but I was in my early 30's when that happened.
 

gfletcher77

New member
I think there is something to be said for elite education - I think the quality of the instructors and the ability to go so far beyond the basics (which are assumed to in place by that point) allows a much more in depth exploration of any given topic. I also think there is a value to dialogue with people that regularly demonstrate an ability to think critically. whereas at cheaper institutions (which are by no means cheap) I think there is more of a tendency to cross off requirements and do as much work as is needed to graduate - i think something gets lost in terms of the quality of education, especially if you are talking about a public school that has probably had major cutbacks in funding.
I do agree though that it is more worthwhile when you get to graduate degrees since at that point you are dedicate to a field and hopefully passionate about what you are doing at that point.
 

Av8r3400

Gone Flyin'
My sister's ex-husband was a Princeton educated PHd. Absolutely, by far, the most ignorant man I ever knew. Not the only example I could name.

An ivy league education holds little respect from me over any other "state" school.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
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Clearly this video shows that college at Olivet-Nazerine is not worth the price of tuition :yum:

But it sure is fun to watch for anyone who didn't pay these kid's tuition bills: http://wimp.com/pongshots/
 
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