• Please be sure to read the rules and adhere to them. Some banned members have complained that they are not spammers. But they spammed us. Some even tried to redirect our members to other forums. Duh. Be smart. Read the rules and adhere to them and we will all get along just fine. Cheers. :beer: Link to the rules: https://www.forumsforums.com/threads/forum-rules-info.2974/

Glad I don't own any 3M stock

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
This company is likely to take a beating, if it has not already.

Selling PPE equipment to other countries ahead of our own is criminal to my way of thinking.

I like so many of their products, and understand China insists on keep their production in China in China. But the USA production being sold to other Countries ahead of our own is much harder to explain.

It is going to hard for me to not find alternatives to 3M products..

Regards, Kirk
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
Those bastards, along with GM should be ashamed of themselves.

When Trump authorized the Defense Act, he said he hoped it was not needed, that companies would step up and do what was right without being forced to do so.

So, here we are, two shitbird companies having to have their balls tied into a knot just to force them to do the right thing for the American people.

To hell with both those companies. I already hated GM cars anyway, so I hate them even more now. As for 3M, I can stay away from those shitheads too. I will support companies that support America without being forced to.
 

Bamby

New member
Well what about all the harp about capitalism often implied here. Capitalism is about the most profit and returns to the company and stockholders after all.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
Well what about all the harp about capitalism often implied here. Capitalism is about the most profit and returns to the company and stockholders after all.

Yes it is and I support that 110% under normal circumstances, however, these are not normal circumstances, what with the Defense Act being enacted by POTUS, so by that very definition, companies need to set aside the need for profits for the need for survival.

Would you be out trying to sell your food or wares supply for the biggest profit while your family sits at home doing without? I would hope not for their sake.

The least common denominator here is survival not profits. Common sense is the common theme here and 3M & GM are lacking in that department.
 

Bamby

New member
Yes it is and I support that 110% under normal circumstances, however, these are not normal circumstances, what with the Defense Act being enacted by POTUS, so by that very definition, companies need to set aside the need for profits for the need for survival.

Well the companies need the profit(s) to ensure they are able to survive. They can't pay bills, rents, and wages on pro bono giveaways can they. In times of war or in peace they aren't asked or expected to provide bombs, bullets, or supplies at cost are they.

Would you be out trying to sell your food or wares supply for the biggest profit while your family sits at home doing without? I would hope not for their sake.

Yea I might go for a good leveraged trade. My Dad grew up on a farm and all the very best of everything was sold into the market for cash money. Dad never got to enjoy the very pork he fed and attended to in the smokehouse because it brought in some of the most cash money. They did consume the cheep cuts such as shoulder steaks and some fine sausage.

The least common denominator here is survival not profits. Common sense is the common theme here and 3M & GM are lacking in that department.

A company can't survive without profits and unless you're implying they should be nationalized and everyone works for the best interest of the nation for free. They have every right to chase down profits.
 

pixie

Well-known member
SUPER Site Supporter
The other thing I thought of in relation to this is that other countries might have placed thier orders weeks ago. It wouldn't be right to redirect those orders.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
A company can't survive without profits and unless you're implying they should be nationalized and everyone works for the best interest of the nation for free. They have every right to chase down profits.

THIS IS NOT ABOUT PROFITS, IT IS ABOUT THE GOOD OF THE FUCKING COUNTRY!! Judas Priest on a flippin' pogo stick, can't these fucking companies and their fucking shareholders put their profits on the back burner for just a few fucking months and just do what is fucking right? I'm a shareholder in more than one company right now. I do not need a dividend check right now. I will live.

Is that too fucking much to ask? Maybe it is me. Maybe we just go back to the capitalism of JD Rockefeller, JP Morgan and Carnegie where all the big companies just spend all their time counting money and fucking over the country. Boy, those were the good old days, eh?
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
The other thing I thought of in relation to this is that other countries might have placed thier orders weeks ago. It wouldn't be right to redirect those orders.

On Fox this morning they interviewed a Florida Disaster Services director who stated they admitted to placing his order to the bottom of the pile. They stated that other Countries were putting cash up front for their orders... :hammer:

Got my attention...

Regards, Kirk
 

NorthernRedneck

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
Those bastards, along with GM should be ashamed of themselves.

When Trump authorized the Defense Act, he said he hoped it was not needed, that companies would step up and do what was right without being forced to do so.

So, here we are, two shitbird companies having to have their balls tied into a knot just to force them to do the right thing for the American people.

To hell with both those companies. I already hated GM cars anyway, so I hate them even more now. As for 3M, I can stay away from those shitheads too. I will support companies that support America without being forced to.
You might want to look at the big picture on this one. Yes, companies like 3M are shipping products outside of the United states. It works two ways on that. Where do they get the raw pulp needed to make these products? Canada is a big supplier of pulp to the states. If trump wants to flex his power in that overinflated head of his saying that 3m can't export, maybe it's time we stop the supply of the raw materials needed to make the stuff. This isn't the only mill in Canada supplying the states. We have one here. There's one 4 hours west of here. There's one 3 hours east. Shut em all down. Then we'll see what happens.

https://www.vancouverislandfreedail...ubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/

While we're at it, we should flip the switch off that supplies power to the north eastern states. It's a 2 way street and I'm sick and tired of trump playing "bully on the block". Generally speaking you want to play nice with your neighbors or it might come back to bite you in the ass.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
You might want to look at the big picture on this one. Yes, companies like 3M are shipping products outside of the United states. It works two ways on that. Where do they get the raw pulp needed to make these products? Canada is a big supplier of pulp to the states. If trump wants to flex his power in that overinflated head of his saying that 3m can't export, maybe it's time we stop the supply of the raw materials needed to make the stuff. This isn't the only mill in Canada supplying the states. We have one here. There's one 4 hours west of here. There's one 3 hours east. Shut em all down. Then we'll see what happens.

https://www.vancouverislandfreedail...ubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/

While we're at it, we should flip the switch off that supplies power to the north eastern states. It's a 2 way street and I'm sick and tired of trump playing "bully on the block". Generally speaking you want to play nice with your neighbors or it might come back to bite you in the ass.

I don't think Canada is the problem here. I don't think Trump has an issue with Canada either. As a matter of fact, the only negative thing I can recall him ever saying about Canada, other than shitting on Trudeau, was the 170% tariff the Quebers imposed on Vermont dairy products. The Quebers would come down here trying to drum up business with us and then pull shit like that. But that is another story.

There are friends and then there are "friends". I do believe Trump considers Canada a friend. I do believe where he is directing his animosity toward, concerning exports, is our European "friends".

As for power from HydroQuebec, which is what I believe you are referring to, first of all, it is not cheap, it was just cheaper than nuclear. 70% of my electricity comes from HydroQuebec and 30% from Niagara Mohawk. I pay an effective rate of 22 cents per kilowatt hour. I do believe that Quebec is very well compensated for what they sell to us. I would suspect they know a very good thing when they see it would be very reluctant to ever pull the plug. I do not have the statistics in front of me but I would be willing to bet they sell their electricity at substantially higher rates to us than they do to Canadian citizens. Nothing wrong with that, but it sure makes for a nice cash cow for them, right?

IMHO we never should have shut down Vermont Yankee, Maine Yankee and Pilgrim stations. But that is what the liberals wanted and they won.

I'm just glad GM and 3M did not make M1 carbines during WW2 or they would have sold all of them to the Germans and Japanese for the higher profits.
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
I don't think Canada is the problem here. I don't think Trump has an issue with Canada either. As a matter of fact, the only negative thing I can recall him ever saying about Canada, other than shitting on Trudeau, was the 170% tariff the Quebers imposed on Vermont dairy products. The Quebers would come down here trying to drum up business with us and then pull shit like that. But that is another story.

There are friends and then there are "friends". I do believe Trump considers Canada a friend. I do believe where he is directing his animosity toward, concerning exports, is our European "friends".

As for power from HydroQuebec, which is what I believe you are referring to, first of all, it is not cheap, it was just cheaper than nuclear. 70% of my electricity comes from HydroQuebec and 30% from Niagara Mohawk. I pay an effective rate of 22 cents per kilowatt hour. I do believe that Quebec is very well compensated for what they sell to us. I would suspect they know a very good thing when they see it would be very reluctant to ever pull the plug. I do not have the statistics in front of me but I would be willing to bet they sell their electricity at substantially higher rates to us than they do to Canadian citizens. Nothing wrong with that, but it sure makes for a nice cash cow for them, right?

IMHO we never should have shut down Vermont Yankee, Maine Yankee and Pilgrim stations. But that is what the liberals wanted and they won.

I'm just glad GM and 3M did not make M1 carbines during WW2 or they would have sold all of them to the Germans and Japanese for the higher profits.

Actually GM did make M1 carbines ( Inland ) and the were the most produced. But the GM of 1942 is not he GM of today. The GM of today got bailed out by the taxpayer or they would be gone, then didn't want to make masks to help the same people that saved them WTF. Stop bailing these assholes out! AS for 3M I think when the war production act was triggered it effectively Nationalizes the company to produce whatever the US government wants and also who gets them. Mr Trump already stated that when we get what we need we will do our best to help the rest of the world. Right now is when it should be America first. I don't think anyone should expect that anyone else would help them before they have helped themselves.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
Actually GM did make M1 carbines ( Inland ) and the were the most produced. But the GM of 1942 is not he GM of today. The GM of today got bailed out by the taxpayer or they would be gone, then didn't want to make masks to help the same people that saved them WTF. Stop bailing these assholes out! AS for 3M I think when the war production act was triggered it effectively Nationalizes the company to produce whatever the US government wants and also who gets them. Mr Trump already stated that when we get what we need we will do our best to help the rest of the world. Right now is when it should be America first. I don't think anyone should expect that anyone else would help them before they have helped themselves.

You are 100% correct!! I used to own one before I lost them all in that boating accident. My memory failed me on that one. I meant to only refer to 3M. :applause:
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
My Chinese wife was shooting one earlier today. Hows that for irony. And TR you got nuthin on her for the distain of the CCP. She knows what and who they are, voted for Mr Trump and absolutely fuckin hates them. Not to mention she is becoming a pretty good shot.
 

tiredretired

The Old Salt
SUPER Site Supporter
My Chinese wife was shooting one earlier today. Hows that for irony. And TR you got nuthin on her for the distain of the CCP. She knows what and who they are, voted for Mr Trump and absolutely fuckin hates them. Not to mention she is becoming a pretty good shot.

You got a good woman there, hold onto her M1. :thumbup::clap::smile:
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
You might want to look at the big picture on this one. Yes, companies like 3M are shipping products outside of the United states. It works two ways on that. Where do they get the raw pulp needed to make these products? Canada is a big supplier of pulp to the states. If trump wants to flex his power in that overinflated head of his saying that 3m can't export, maybe it's time we stop the supply of the raw materials needed to make the stuff. This isn't the only mill in Canada supplying the states. We have one here. There's one 4 hours west of here. There's one 3 hours east. Shut em all down. Then we'll see what happens.

https://www.vancouverislandfreedail...ubled-pulp-order-for-medical-masks-and-gowns/

While we're at it, we should flip the switch off that supplies power to the north eastern states. It's a 2 way street and I'm sick and tired of trump playing "bully on the block". Generally speaking you want to play nice with your neighbors or it might come back to bite you in the ass.


Too imply that Canada has any "real" leverage against the US is kind of ... funny. Go ahead 98 pound weakling - flex that muscle and see how far it gets you - especially with a president like Trump.

With attitudes like that Canada better keep cozying up to China and see how far that gets them.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
If 3M wants to uproot its corporate base and move to another country it is welcome to. As long as a company is incorporated in the USA and benefits from the protections that come with that incorporation then they need to make USA customer's their priority during times like these.
 

Bamby

New member
You might want to look at the big picture on this one. Yes, companies like 3M are shipping products outside of the United states. It works two ways on that. Where do they get the raw pulp needed to make these products?

The only mention I can find is how 3M manufactures and distributes the masks out of China. No mention of Canadian materials raw or otherwise mentioned.

A shipment of 3M face masks from a factory in China was expected to arrive in Bangkok this week. The vital items meant to protect healthcare workers in the fight against coronavirus were ordered and supposed to be sent to Berlin, but it never arrived. Now, the Germans are accusing the U.S. of hijacking.

Berlin's police chief Barbara Slowik apparently told Der Tagesspiegel, a German newspaper, that a shipment of 200,000 3M face masks was rerouted to the United States. Andreas Geisel, a Berlin interior senator, also confirmed that the masks were "confiscated." German broadcaster RBB stated that the shipment was diverted by American authorities.

“We consider this an act of modern piracy. This is not how you deal with transatlantic partners,” Geisel said. "Even in times of global crisis there should be no wild west methods. I am urging the [German] federal government to demand the U.S.A. respect international rules,” the senator wrote in a statement.

But it's not just Germany accusing the U.S. of snatching its face mask shipments.

Le Journal de Montreal, a daily in Canada, reported that orders of 3M face masks meant for their local hospitals have been diverted to Ohio in what was regarded as a "computer error."

Rénaud Muselier, a French official from the Provence-Alpes-Côte d’Azur southeastern region, also said that American buyers were at a Shanghai tarmac to buy shipments meant for France for three times the original price.

More to the article here..
 

m1west

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
This isn't a time for a chest pumping pissing match to prove whose got the bigger balls. It's a time for everyone to come together and work together for the survival of humanity. Here's a friendly reminder of how Canada has reacted in a time of crisis vs how the us is reacting.....

https://time.com/5816072/canada-n95-mask-ban-reaction/

Is that why Canada pulled all of the nurses that work across the border in the US to help Canada? If Mr Trump allowed the US manufactured masks to go to foreign countries right now when we are short then he would be accused here of helping others while we die etc. I wish there was enough to go around for everyone but there is not. So thats why the saying ( Charity starts at home ) I don't think anyone would share their kids food with the neighbor kids until their kids are fed.
 

NorthernRedneck

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
The link opens fine for me and I never paid for it. Strange. Anyways, here's the article....

"
White House scrambles to scoop up medical supplies worldwide, angering Canada, Germany

Berlin officials suggested the U.S. even hijacked a shipment of masks in Thailand that was bound for Germany, although one Berlin official later backtracked from his statement

Trump says CDC recommends 'voluntary' wearing of masks to prevent covid-19 spread

President Trump told reporters April 3 that he did not plan to take a new Centers for Disease Control advisement that Americans wear non-medical face coverings. (The Washington Post)

By*

Jeanne Whalen,*

Loveday Morris,*

Tom Hamburger*and*

Terrence McCoy*

April 4, 2020 at 3:09 p.m. EDT

The Trump administration’s global scramble to secure more protective masks for U.S. health-care workers has sparked tensions with allies including Canada and Germany, which fear they could face shortages as they battle their own*coronavirus*outbreaks.

The White House late Thursday ordered Minnesota mask manufacturer 3M to prioritize U.S. orders over foreign demand, using its authority under the Defense Production Act, or DPA, to try to ease critical shortages of N95 masks at U.S. hospitals.

The Trump administration has asked 3M to stop exporting the masks to Canada and Latin America, and to import more from 3M’s factories in China, the*company saidFriday.

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At the same time, officials in Berlin criticized the United States on Friday over what they said was the diversion of 200,000 masks that were en route from China. One official backtracked from his comments Saturday, making it unclear whether the shipment had gone to the U.S. Officials in Brazil and France, meanwhile, complained that the United States was outbidding them in the global marketplace for critical medical supplies.

At a Friday evening briefing, Trump said he was invoking the DPA again to stop the export of “critical medical items by unscrupulous actors,” whom he did not identify.

Inside America’s mask crunch: A slow government reaction and an industry wary of liability

The developments underscored the huge pressure the Trump administration faces as coronavirus infections in the United States continue to skyrocket and state officials and health-care workers continue to complain of*shortages*of medical supplies, at a time when most of the rest of the world also is battling the contagion.

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Sign up for our Coronavirus Updates newsletter to track the outbreak. All stories linked in the newsletter are free to access.

Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said his government has been “forcefully” reminding American counterparts that trade “goes both ways across the border.”

Thousands of nurses in Windsor, Ontario, he noted, travel to Detroit each day to work in hospitals there. Several of them have since tested positive for covid-19, the disease caused by the novel coronavirus, which has infected more than 12,000 people in Michigan.

“These are things that Americans rely on,” Trudeau said, “and it would be a mistake to create blockages or reduce the amount of back-and-forth trade of essential goods and services, including medical goods, across our border.”

President Trump announced late Thursday he was invoking the Defense Production Act in relation to 3M, suggesting it was for punitive reasons. “We hit 3M hard today after seeing what they were doing with their Masks,” he tweeted. “. . . Big surprise to many in government as to what they were doing - will have a big price to pay!”

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On Friday, Trump added he was “not happy with 3M,” without elaborating.

In an executive order, the White House said it would use the act to acquire “the number of N-95 respirators that the [FEMA] administrator determines to be appropriate.”

Medical supply chaos: Why governors are so upset with Trump

3M Chief Executive Michael Roman said the company would comply with the order.

"The narrative we aren’t doing everything we can as a company is just not true,” he said in an interview with*CNBC, noting that 3M has doubled its global production of N95 masks since coronavirus hit the headlines in January.

He also cautioned that administration requests to stop mask exports from the United States, and to divert production from other countries, could have serious trade and humanitarian implications.

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3M is an important supplier to Canada and Latin America, and “the sole provider in many cases of the respiratory protection for health-care workers in countries around the world,” he said, adding that exports to Canada and Latin America represent a “small proportion” of the company’s U.S. production.

“Ceasing all export of respirators produced in the United States would likely cause other countries to retaliate and do the same, as some have already done,” 3M said in a statement.

The company said it had “secured approval from China” this week to export 10 million masks to the United States, from 3M’s factories in China. That followed a Trump administration request that 3M increase imports from its overseas factories, the company said.

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Presidential trade adviser Peter Navarro said this week that the administration has “had some issues making sure that all of the production that 3M does around the world — enough of it is coming back here to the right places.”

In February, Navarro complained in an interview with*Fox Business*that China had moved to “nationalize, effectively, 3M, our company . . . to prevent them from sending us any stuff.”

In response, 3M said it has a “regionalized” manufacturing structure. “For example, the majority of our products made in China are sold in China,” a spokeswoman said.

German officials on Friday were stinging in their criticism of the Trump administration after a consignment of face masks that they said was ordered and paid for by the Berlin police was diverted en route from China. But one of the officials backpedaled from his statement on Saturday.

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Andreas Geisel, Berlin’s interior minister, said the delivery made it as far as Bangkok before being “confiscated.” In a statement Friday, he said the masks had been ordered from a U.S. firm and “we are currently assuming that this is related to the U.S. government’s ban on mask exports." Berlin mayor Michael Müller also weighed in to call the action “inhumane and unacceptable.”

But on Saturday, Geisel wrote on Twitter that he had clarified that the order was placed with a German firm, and that supply-chain issues were being “reviewed.”

German press reports said Friday the consignment was ordered from 3M. 3M later said it had “no evidence” that its products had been seized, as it had “no record of any order of respirators from China for the Berlin police.”

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The German federal government did not respond to a request to comment on Friday. The U.S. State Department declined to comment on the complaints from various countries.

In Brazil, the health minister this week said some of the country’s purchases from China fell through after the United States started transporting planeloads of equipment from China.

“The United States has ordered 23 huge airplanes to China to bring back the materials that they’d acquired,” Brazilian health minister Luiz Henrique Mandetta told reporters. “Our purchases — which we expected would bolster supplies — many fell through.”

He said it’s likely that Brazil had been outbid for the supplies, and that the Chinese reneged on the agreements.

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Brazil announced Thursday that after distributing the last of its medical supplies, the health ministry’s reserves have now been completely depleted.

“In another week, we won’t have any more masks,” said Alexandre Telles, the president of Rio de Janeiro’s doctors’ union. “Everyone is very scared by the lack of protective equipment.”

In France, a number of regional officials told the*Libération*newspaper that they had ordered masks from Chinese suppliers, only to be outbid by American officials at the last minute.

“I had found a stock of masks available, but the Americans outbid,” said Valérie Pécresse, the president of the Paris region’s governmental council.

The United States emphatically denied the allegations. “The United States government has not purchased any masks intended for delivery from China to France,” the U.S. Embassy in Paris wrote in a statement. “Reports to the contrary are completely false.”

Amanda Coletta in Toronto, James McAuley in Paris and Luisa Beck in Berlin contributed to this report.
 
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