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Hydraulic pump mounts

redsqwrl

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Any one have a photo of their Hydraulic pump mount on a V-4 essex motor. My pump is on the drivers side and driven off of a idle pulley under the fan.

I can't generate the effort I need to lift a Bombardier drag on the rear.
That is partially not true, I can raise it, but the belts are slipping, they are not going to be reliable. I can stall the pump even with extreme tension on the belt. ( yes it is the correct gauge belt)

I am seeking a double pulley for the crank.

I need to stick my head back in there for a possible trans PTO type. I am thinking not on the t-98....

All Hyd functions on this machine work as they should including a large drag for Snomo trails except the raising of the X-country attachment.


I think my options are:
  • larger diameter ram for the lifting function. $$ fairly easy to do.
  • Smaller displacement pump. Work in a really tight spot. may slow down other functions.
  • Direct drive from crank. easiest if a pully can be sourced.
  • electric over Hyd pump for up only. $$ and easy and lazy, heavy plus elect drain.
  • Two stage pump. ( need to go shopping in the shed I think i have one) :mellow:
Open to any and all comments. constructive criticism welcome,
 

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pixie

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I might be all wrong about this.... It looks like your ram is at the same height (almost parallel ) to what you are raising. If you made a new mount from both attachment points at the sides with a center section that put the snowcat side of the ram 4" higher, it would take less effort to raise the attachment.

Just an idea. That pump was pretty hard to get at on my Imp.
 

300 H and H

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At first I though I agreed with the above, but I then noticed the cylinders are retracted? In the down position of the drag? Now I am confused...
Regards, Kirk
 

redsqwrl

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Don't be confused.(that is my burden) This attachment kicked my intelectuall Butt.
Pixie:
It is mounted according to the Bombardier spec. I have the manual. Brochure here.
http://www.safetyoneinc.com/specsheets/bombi.br100.4.html
300.
it *the ram* is retracted when up. Its real-world purpose is to push down.
My thoughts: some what confirmed with the X-country groomer guys at koz's...
the volume of the ram is reduced by the shaft so it by design generates very little effort to raise. the annualar (sp) space around the ram shaft is tiny. If the belt does not slip it comes up quick and high, I think that is, by design, to allow the track traces to be eliminated on up hills when skiers switch to the crow foot skateing type stride and then drop the traces back down at speed.
Pixie right above the plate that it is mounted on is Sheet metal (aluminum) I thought of moving it up but then when cresting a hill I may pick up......

Pixie is you hydraulic pump driven off the fan idler?

Mike
 

redsqwrl

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Pixie it is hard to see in that photo but the actual mount for the drag is below the little center ram. the pinned guide is just to keep the attachment from trying to pass me up or hit my track. there is four attachments.
main boom. way low. (hard to see)
Upper mount is ram.
Left guide
right guide both have red handled pins.

Mike
 

pixie

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Now I see the other mount.
Maybe the angle of the photo is confusing but I still don't see much height difference/angle between the ram and the rest of it . There seems to be more height difference in the attached drawing from that web page.
If you were going to change the ram mount height, you'd need to make a baseplate that attached to the other attachment points and not the cab.

I don't have the Imp anymore but I think it was driven like yours. It was in the same place and factory installed.
 

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300 H and H

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This is just the way a 3 point hitch is on an Ag tractor. Only you are using the 3rd link to raise it, instead of the side arms. I agree with pixie. The more you raise the top pin on the center cylinder, the easier it will be for the (you are correct, we're on the weak fast side of the stroke) retracting ram to raise it. Some farm tractors are set up with two positions for the third, top link. In the raised position I believe the drag will also lift higher as well, but at the expence of it won't be able to go as low...

He is also right about a base plate of some sort to attach it to, definately not the cab!

Regards, Kirk
 

redsqwrl

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I will shoot a better photo tomorrow after work.

It is mounted just like the photo pasted above. I shot that photo at probably the worst possible angle. that rear plate is quite tall and yet it looks like the mounts touch.

The lower mount (even thou it appears barely below) is actually to the right and down quite a bit. that rear plate is (just guessing) 16-18" tall and the lower mounts are at the bottom and the ram the top.

Mike

I am a bit relieved to here that is the factory pump position. I am going to look into the bearing support and see how much tension that idler can take. I see a pry bar in the future.
 

300 H and H

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Yea,

Better pics will be good. It raises that drag way high enough already. Must be something we're not seeing in the pics.

Are those teeth on the rake ridgid?
Kirk
 

pixie

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If the spread is 14-16" up/down between the ram mount and the pivot points, then I'd try a bigger cylinder or add a second one the same size. ( Purely a guess :biggrin: It's what I'd try before I messed with the pump )

Joan
 

redsqwrl

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Amen to messing with that pump. It took a whole string of colorful words to adjust the valves as there is just enough room to turn the engine OR look at the timing marks.

There is NO way I could do both.

I am going to price out a larger diameter single ram. I am thinking it is similar money to buying another the same size.

Then I could use the old ram for:
crushing beer cans.
pressing solid rubber tires,
little wood splitter
some other waste of time.

Mike
 
A couple of things Red when your cylinder retracts, as it does when you raise your drag, it is less powerful but faster than when the cylinder extends. This is because the "rod" reduces the square area of the piston in that direction of travel. If you went to a bigger cylinder it would provide more lifting power with the same hydraulic input but would be over all slower. Also the closer the cylinder mounts to the hinge point of the attachment will allow for more travel with a given cylinder but requires more power to do the work. Both of these issues are engineered (mathematical equations) when a system is designed.

Since your drag was already engineered and is correctly installed, I would not worry too much about that end of things. Once you verify the pump has enough volume (GPM) at the required PSI and is in good condition, then you can limit the problems to the belts, mounts etc. which sounds like is the main problem with your install.

Forget the PTO idea, if you even have the ability, as they are designed for operating at one speed only and the pump would not perform well above first gear. I would stick with the engine driven pump and look into a cog belt that is almost impossible to slip. I had that set up on my old spryte and it worked great. The belt was about 2" wide and had cogs that matched with the pulleys on the pump and crank. I don't know right off hand where you would get the parts but I would start with a bearing parts store or drivetrain parts store.
 

300 H and H

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How about turning the offending cylinder around end for end? or would that be too easy....????

Kirk
 
You would have to rework the hoses, as the cylinder would be moving back and forth instead of the rod. Oops scratch that whole idea as the assembly would still be compressing to lift the attachment and the action of the cylinder would be the same.
 
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redsqwrl

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I like the cog belt Idea.

I don't like the work involved with fitting the pullies and or mounting it up. but i like the simplicity and reliability of it all.

Mike

Kirk don't feel bad about the turn the cyl around when Pixie mentioned adding a cyl I had a fleeting vision of mounting it backwards. Very fleeting vision.
 

Snowtrac Nome

member formerly known as dds
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if the problem you are having is a belt slipping try a fractional drive belt i have seen those used on accessorys that you would expect to see an automotive v belt if you have fractional drive accessorys you donot need as much belt tension to do the same work
 

redsqwrl

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I spent the weekend in auto suppliers measuring an trying. I reached out to a Rally racing buddy who knows his saabs. I found that saab sonnetts (that came with air conditioning) have a double pulley on the intermediate shaft. (which I thought was the crank shaft) Guess what? the crankshaft does not come out of a V-4 engine.
 

redsqwrl

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Pulley will be here sunday afternoon. I am really hoping that the belt makes it by the fan idler with out rubbing.

In the dumb department:
I feel really dumb (well even more dumb) when I found out that the pulley with the timing mark is not the crankshaft.

I am hoping to get to know these saab guys a little better. I found out that they have v-4s that put out 150 HP. some have 5 spd trans. there are electronic conversion for iginition..... I found a link on a saab site of a turbo'd V-4.

Fun
 

redsqwrl

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The Saab guy was very knowledgeable, I am going to try a couple of his ideas.

1) abandon the fan all together. (PO of my imp removed the fan and went electric) he gave me a belt length for just the coolant pump, balance shaft and alternator. This what he does in his road race car.

2) from the other (new pulley furthest awayin picture) Pulley slot I am going to drive the Hydraulic pump. I wind up with a full wrap of belt on both the driven and driving sheeves.

Just in case or back up plan:
If things are not where i like them (I dont like electric fans) also grabbed the fan and OEM essex Pulley. I will then come from the balance shaft to the fan idler then to the hydraulic pump.

For what it is worth or perhaps a new thread:
I have a whole new respect for that little engine after talking with a enthusiast. He turns his motor over 8500 repeatedly and His race motors cost less than 500. (in machine work.)

Even if you apply the fisherman multiplyer (divide the story by six) you will get an idea that ford was on to something when they built that motor.
 

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redsqwrl

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Quick update.

Sucess.!

The Imp now has a Two belt setup. From the balance shaft I have a double pulley.
(Saab sonnet AC pulley)
The inner belt drives the water pump and alternator. (nothing else)

The outer belt drives the Fan and hyd pump.

I have the fan pushing air out the front. no real reason other than when it is idleing I can go warm up there when out working. I can drive the fan either direction by swapping belts.

The track setter comes up quickly even at idle.

Tomorrow I will finish the repairs to the track setter and then set my sights on an exhaust leak at the Y pipe and finish rewiring.

Mike
 

pixie

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I'm glad to hear that worked :thumb:

Bet it wasn't easy getting at the front of the motor.
 

redsqwrl

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That is the truth..
Getting at that motor was Really not that bad once I commited to pulling the radiator out. I felt very proud tooling around with that drag lifted and electrically locked in the up position. I think the Previous owner lost interest in the imp because of the labor to Get the compactor to work right.

In photo number one I think he was figthing this worn out double pulley. the smaller Slot is wore almost square. Regardless of how tight that belt was it slipped. I initially tried a wider fractional belt, It literally rode on the Square shoulder of the sheeve shiv (sp).

In photo two You can see the Ford water pump pulley that came off of a 5.8 L V-8. I cut the center out and made a Smooth Idler for the back of the belt to drive the fan. (it is on the step next to the OEM V-4 pulley) Doing this allowed me two tricks from the saab racer guy.
One: was the Alternator and Water pump driven together alone.
Two: the Hyd pump and Balance shaft become direct drive with full wraps on both pulleys.

If I relocate the belt to the Over position I can pull air into the engine compartment. If I leave it tracking under the fan it will push air outside.

Next project on this guy is to make a V plow attachment for the front. and a Pintle hitch three point attachment for the rear.
Mike
 

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