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  #21  
Old 11-18-2010, 12:33 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

Oh and then there is this, the sale is COSTING taxpayers money.

From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1827687520101118
Quote:
Bloom said GM has done the right thing and pricing of $33 per share is a "fair deal" even though the partial sale represents a loss of roughly $9 billion on taxpayers' original investment.
The price is above that $33/share mark which means we may lose something like $7 or $8 BILLION but its still a bad deal for us.
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Old 11-18-2010, 12:54 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

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Originally Posted by BigAl View Post
So bottom line .... Is it something to look at as an investment ????
Do you trust someone when they tell you "Trust me, I'm with the government"? They cornholed me once and I bet this will prove to be a terrible investment over time. Hey, it doesn't bother them one bit that they literally screwed millions of people out of their life's savings. Why would it bother them one bit if they ever feel the need to do it again?

I wouldn't piss on GM if they were on fire. Any questions where I stand on the issue?
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  #23  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:07 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

GM may be a good "day trade" but I still question if it is a good "investment."
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  #24  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:08 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

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Originally Posted by Melensdad View Post
Oh and then there is this, the sale is COSTING taxpayers money.

From Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1827687520101118

The price is above that $33/share mark which means we may lose something like $7 or $8 BILLION but its still a bad deal for us.
Unless I don't understand the situation, the government gets $33 per their initial IPO. The current price of $35 and change is the market and the government will not participate.

I will not participate in this scam, but if I did, I would sell short 30 days. My reasoning is this:

There is still the matter of the unfunded pension liability, over 30 billion. None of the governments windfall will go to that matter.
IPO's on average, rise in the excitement, and decline.
The government and the unions still will effectively control GM, and they have already demonstrated a willingness to throw stockholders and lien holders under the bus in deference to the unions.
GM's profitability over the past 3 quarters is questionable at best, and does not, IMO represent true market indicators. Relieving the debt load, rebates and incentives, all contribute to the profit, and are one time line items.

Not sure is futures are available as yet.
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  #25  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:11 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

I agree 100%.
Just for the hell of it, ask your broker what your old shares of GM are now worth.
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  #26  
Old 11-18-2010, 01:53 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melensdad View Post
GM may be a good "day trade" but I still question if it is a good "investment."
Hey, China bought 500 million worth. Perhaps this is just the first move in GM becoming a ChiCom company. If you recall, pre-bankrupt, GM sued China from their likeness and logo when China was going to bring their (likely similar quality) Chery cars over here to sell.

One of my good dealer friends went over to China when he was considering buying a Chery franchise. Clearly he's glad he didn't, but he said that Yugo could teach China a thing or two about building cars. In fairness, Chery cars were intended to be "entry level" cars.

Still, I can walk you around and then put my 2005 Impala up on my lift and show you workmanship that would embarrass the sloppiest and most lax Chinese worker. The car rates reasonably high on NTSA crash tests, so I have my middle daughter driving it. However, a quality car it isn't and it is the highest trim level and has the most options you can get on that year Impala. And, yes, I can't hardly keep up with fixing all those options as they fail. Her freaking seat heater quit last week. GM wants you to basically change the seat to fix that problem.

Oh, just to be clear on this car; it was purchased new by my 60 year old aunt who took it in to the selling dealer to have absolutely every maintenance item performed at or before it's prescribed time and the car always sat in a climate controlled garage the entire 50k miles or so she owned it.

Seriously, GM was so cheap that they didn't clear coat the door jams, under the hood or trunk lid, missed with the massive amount of seam sealer used under the car where panels meet. I had to clean all the road grit off and seal about 6 or 8 body seams under the car because the lazy ass worker on the assembly line completely missed sealing where the panels come together and they use what is basically a 3" wide industrial caulk gun. Talk about poor workmanship!
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  #27  
Old 11-18-2010, 02:49 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

I love it. All the Gubment's spin machines are on overdrive. Headlines everywhere are saying "GM Stocks Soar After IPO" and stuff like that. Well, as of now, if you bought GM stock at the $35 IPO you would have only lost a dollar per share in the first day. Yeah, that's really soaring to new heights! Suckers!!
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  #28  
Old 11-18-2010, 05:28 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

Hot dammit, I knew it!! GM is now claiming, in print no less, that their stock went up 3.6% the first day! WTF?! It opened at $35 and closed at $34.19. How the hell is that a 3.6% (and is falling in after hours trading) increase??? You wanna know what they are doing?

GM is claiming their stock went up 3.6%....from the $33.00 price they were going to open with. OMG! Do they have Obama's spin machine working for them full time? I don't think the Clinton spin machine would have been dumb enough to try that one!


*edit*
Oh yeah, my "real" GM stock, you know, before they screwed everyone, closed at a whopping $0.18 a share. How would you like to be a recent GM retiree with almost a million shares of GM stock in your name that you earned over the 45 years you worked there and have what you thought was several million to retire on end up being a few hundred dollars? Whoohoo
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  #29  
Old 11-18-2010, 08:38 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

On the radio today NPR made a statement that I only caught part of. The statement was that in order for GM to get the amount of money they wanted for this IPO they needed to sell the remaining stocks that did not sell at $50.00 each. So are they short of expectations or what. I wonder what the stock will be worth in the days coming?
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  #30  
Old 11-18-2010, 11:46 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

I just don't get this at all. After an hour on the internet trying to figure out how this transaction went down, I am more confused than when I started. Here is how I see it:
GM is stating on their web site that the stock offerred is an PO (not IPO), which means that GM sold authorized but not distributed new stock. The strike price was $33. The money would accrue to GM and there would be more shares outstanding. No mention of what GM will do with the money. (They also appear to have sold some preferred, but I have heard nothing of that from other than the GM website)
If this is true, then the government would get no money from the sale of the stock, as none of theirs would have been sold. The ownership position would change, but hopefully the value of the equity position should not change due to the large cash influx and related in assets, or reduction of liabilities.
If the government offered some of their stock for sale at a strike price of $33, then the money would accrue to the government, but the issue would be a straight sale, not a PO.
If the government sold their stock, then their voting and ownership position would change the amount of their reduction of stock, but total shares outstanding would remain the same. Hopefully, the equity position would remain the same or increase
If GM sold the stock, then the government would retain the same amount of stock as previous, and their position would be diluted in terms of ownership. However, this would also dilute the ownership position of the UAW. I have heard nothing of this.
The other thing I cannot find is the commission paid to the two firms handling the transaction. If, say, I sold my shares of stock to Al, there would be two rather small commissions involved. I'm betting that JP Morgan and Morgan Stanley, the two houses involved, are getting more than two commissions.
I've got to be missing or not understanding something. Can somebody help me?
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  #31  
Old 11-19-2010, 06:04 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimbo View Post
I just don't get this at all. . .
OK well basically the Government SOLD a bunch of shares for $33.00 each but the price paid (based on the bailout) was much higher.

Now for the Government (which used OUR money) to break even it would have to sell the remaining shares for $53 each just to BREAK EVEN. So, as I have so eloquently been stating, we got screwed.
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  #32  
Old 11-19-2010, 08:31 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

I bet they sold more shares though dilution than actual real numbers. Like the Government printing new money as if it had value and then people wonder why inflation is getting ready to spring.
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  #33  
Old 11-19-2010, 11:20 PM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

I heard on a news report today the 80% of the stock sold was sold to the Chinese Government...
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  #34  
Old 11-20-2010, 08:42 AM
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Default Re: GM's upcoming I.P.O. ~Taxpayers get a 'royal screwing'

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Originally Posted by Av8r3400 View Post
I heard on a news report today the 80% of the stock sold was sold to the Chinese Government...
Interesting.
I didn't hear that but I did hear that the biggest market for GM vehicles was China. GM is number one there.
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