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The Great Ethanol Scam

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

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Yet another failed "green" initiative . . .

http://www.businessweek.com/print/lifestyle/content/may2009/bw20090514_058678.htm

Autos May 14, 2009, 1:16PM EST text size: TT
The Great Ethanol Scam

Not only is ethanol proving to be a dud as a fuel substitute but there is increasing evidence that it is destroying engines in large numbers

By Ed Wallace
"Does the average citizen understand what this means? In from 10 to 20 years this country will be dependent entirely upon outside sources for a supply of liquid fuels … paying out vast sums yearly in order to obtain supplies of crude oil from Mexico, Russia, and Persia."—Yale Professor Harold Hibbert, ethanol promoter, 1925



More than one major transportation-based industry in America besides Detroit is on the ropes. For the fourth time in our history the ethanol industry has come undone and is quickly failing nationally. Of course it's one thing when Detroit collapsed with the economy; after all, that is a truly free-market enterprise and the economy hasn't been good. But the fact that the ethanol industry is going bankrupt, when the only reason we use this additive is a massive government mandate, is outrageous at best.



Then again, the ethanol lobby and refiners have a solution to ethanol's failure in America: Hire retired General Wesley Clark as your point man and lobby the government to increase the amount of ethanol in our fuel to 15%. The problems with that proposition are real—unlike ethanol's benefits.
Where's the Logic?

First, the primary job of the Environmental Protection Agency is, dare it be said, to protect our environment. Yet using ethanol actually creates more smog than using regular gas, and the EPA's own attorneys had to admit that fact in front of the justices presiding over the Third Circuit Court of Appeals in 1995 (API v. EPA).



Second, truly independent studies on ethanol, such as those written by Tad Patzek of Berkeley and David Pimentel of Cornell, show that ethanol is a net energy loser. Other studies suggest there is a small net energy gain from it.



Third, all fuels laced with ethanol reduce the vehicle's fuel efficiency, and the E85 blend drops gas mileage between 30% and 40%, depending on whether you use the EPA's fuel mileage standards (fueleconomy.gov) or those of the Dept. of Energy.



Fourth, forget what biofuels have done to the price of foodstuffs worldwide over the past three years; the science seems to suggest that using ethanol increases global warming emissions over the use of straight gasoline. Just these issues should have kept ethanol from being brought back for its fourth run in American history.



Don't let anybody mislead you: The new push to get a 15% ethanol mandate out of Washington is simply to restore profitability to a failed industry. Only this time around those promoting more ethanol in our gas say there's no scientific proof that adding more ethanol will damage vehicles or small gas-powered engines. With that statement they've gone from shilling the public to outright falsehoods, because ethanol-laced gasoline is already destroying engines across the country in ever larger numbers.
Got a Spare $1,000?

Last July was bad enough for motorists on a budget—gasoline prices had shot up to more than $4 a gallon. But for some the pain in the pocketbook was about to get worse. At City Garage in Euless, Tex., for example, the first of numerous future customers brought in an automobile whose fuel pump was shot. A quick diagnosis determined that that particular car had close to 18% ethanol in the fuel. For that unlucky owner, the repairs came to nearly $900. The ethanol fun was just beginning.



City Garage manager Eric Greathouse has found that adding ethanol to the nation's gasoline supply may be a foolish government mandate, but it has an upside he'd rather not deal with. It's supplying his shop with a slow but steady stream of customers whose plastic fuel intakes have been dissolved by the blending of ethanol into our gasoline, or their fuel pumps destroyed. The average cost of repairs is just shy of $1,000.



It gets better. Scott Morrison is the owner of the City Garage chain in North Texas and he related the story of his technical director's run-in with ethanol; in December he filled up his E85 Flex Fuel Chevy Suburban at the Exxon station in Ovilla, just south of Dallas. His Suburban died on the spot, because even an E85-equipped vehicle will not run on the 100% pure ethanol that Exxon station was pumping that day. In that case it was not Exxon's fault but a mistake at the distribution center, and Exxon (XOM) quickly made good for the cost of repairs.



On Jan. 16 of this year, Lexus ordered a massive recall of certain 2006 to 2008 models, including the GS Series, IS and LS sedans. According to the recall notice, the problem is that "Ethanol fuels with low moisture content will corrode the internal surface of the fuel rails." In layman's terms, ethanol causes pinpoint leaks in the fuel system; when leaking fuel catches your engine on fire, that's an exciting way to have your insurance company buy your Lexus. Using ethanol will cost Toyota (TM) untold millions.
An Unpublicized Trend

Though the media is ignoring it, one can easily find many stories on BMW (BMWG.DE) blogs relating similar problems with fuel systems damaged by the use of ethanol. Certainly that was the case with Christi Jordan and her 2007 Mini. For weeks it was difficult to start; Moritz BMW in Arlington, Tex., inspected it and found severe carbon buildup inside the engine. On her second trip to the mechanics they decided to test the ethanol content of Christi's fuel and found it was much higher than the federally mandated limit of 10%. This time the fuel pump had been destroyed by the ethanol. The repair bill came to $1,200: As in all cases where vehicles are damaged by ethanol, legally the factory warranty no longer applied.



Jim Keppler, Moritz's fixed operations director, said he's had at least 10 other cases of ethanol poisoning in Minis over the past six months. Christi was one of the lucky ones; Moritz covered her repairs. But there's no telling how many motorists across the nation have had to pay for fuel pumps, or fuel systems, that ethanol damaged. Most were probably unaware of the real culprit behind the breakdown, because virtually no repair shop tests the level of ethanol in the gasoline when these fuel system problems occur.



And there are active lawsuits from boat owners; ethanol broke down the resins in their fiberglass gas tanks, destroying their marine engines.



Additionally, those who deal in small gas engines for lawnmowers, edgers, and weedeaters have quickly learned that, as Briggs & Stratton's (BGG) Web site warns, "Ethanol-blended gasoline can attract moisture, which leads to separation and formation of acids during storage. Acidic gasoline can damage the fuel system of an engine while in storage. B&S strongly recommends removing ethanol-blended fuels from engine during storage."
Like motorists, if landscaping tool owners put gasoline with more than 10% ethanol in their small engines, that immediately voids any factory warranties. In the case of the Lexus recall, using just a 10% ethanol blend was found to be destroying many of these engines also.
Another Government-Mandated Mistake

It now appears that in just a few years since the government forced ethanol use on the country, engine and fuel system failures caused by ethanol are causing major damage to more and more new and used vehicles. This means the hapless owners are not only paying for snake oil in lower fuel efficiency and more smog, but pay again when it damages their vehicles and lawn mowers.



We seem to have forgotten, but the promise of turning over farmland for fuel production was to reduce our nation's demand for imported crude. But until this massive economic slowdown, as Gusher of Lies (PublicAffairs, 2008) author Robert Bryce pointed out, even while the ethanol mandate was being ramped up we were increasing our imports of foreign oil.
Translation: The entire politically stated purpose of using ethanol had already been proven to be a false one before the program even got fully under way.



No surprise there. The premise that ethanol could give America the freedom to one day stop importing oil has always been fraudulent. Another fun fact: If we outlawed gasoline and diesel, thereby removing every last car, truck and SUV from our highways—no vehicles anywhere on any road in the country—America would still have to import oil because we would still use more crude than domestic production can supply.



Why is that? Crude oil is also used to make fertilizers, aviation fuel, home heating oil, and many other products. Not to mention polyester suits for car salesmen.
Comment Now, Public!

Pushed into it by the corn growers' and ethanol refiners' lobbying organizations, today the EPA is starting to go through the public comment phase on increasing the level of ethanol in our gasoline from 10% to 15%. Time and time again we have heard from these groups, who now claim that there is zero scientific evidence that a 15% blend of ethanol would do any damage whatsoever if the mandate for ethanol were raised. As with all statements made by vested interests, few outsiders have actually taken the time to look and find out whether this statement was true.



In fact, it's false.



Not one mechanic I've spoken with said they would be comfortable with a 15% blend of ethanol in their personal car. However, most suggest that if the government moves the ethanol mandate to 15%, it will be the dawn of a new golden age for auto mechanics' income.



One last thought: Most individuals who have had to repair their fuel systems in recent years never had the gasoline tested to see if the ethanol percentage might be the problem. Today most repair shops and new-car dealers are still not testing for ethanol blends. They're simply repairing the vehicles and sending their unhappy and less wealthy customers on their way. But, where dealer and repair shops are testing the gasoline, ethanol is becoming one of the leading culprits for the damage.



Sadly, when a truly bad idea is exposed today, Washington's answer is to double-down on the bet, mandate more of the same, and make the problem worse. Only this time around motorists will be able to gauge the real cost of ethanol when it comes time to fix their personal cars.



Ed Wallace is a recipient of the the Gerald R. Loeb Award for business journalism, given by the G. and R. Loeb Foundation, and is a member of the American Historical Society. His column leads the Fort Worth Star-Telegram's "Sunday Drive" section. He reviews new cars every Friday morning at 7:15 on Fox Four's Good Day, contributes articles to BusinessWeek Online, and hosts the top-rated talk show Wheels Saturdays from 8 a.m. to 1 p.m. on 570 KLIF.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Might I suggest investing in some of this:

landing-marine.jpg
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
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I never understood the attraction to the "flex fuel" vehicles. Pay about 30 cents a gallon less for something (which is about a 12% to 14% savings in cost) to get 30% less energy. Seems like a horrible trade off.

Add to that all the other problems with Ethanol and its just a dud. Now if the fuel system is built around it, like they have done in Brazil, then it works just fine. But ethanol can't be shipped via pipelines, so we have to build plants everywhere and ship it around regionally by truck . . . all of which drives up the cost.

The corrosion issues in engines with Ethanol are so secret, we've known that for years. So the fact that engines are failing because of it is not a surprise to anyone who'd had their eyes open during the last 30+ years.

I'm actually in favor of alternative fuels. But I think we screwed ourselves by mandating ethanol. Rather we should have embraced several options and let the market decide. I think, just my own opinion, that bio-diesel has better long term possibilities than ethanol. I don't understand why we didn't pursue both paths, and perhaps a couple others, instead of the misguided government mandate to push ethanol.
 

Rusty Shackleford

Automotive M.D.
SUPER Site Supporter
ive been sayin that since they started doin it. stupid damn idea. ive had to repair a misfire twice on my car and it needs an O2 sensor from this bullshit 'better' fuel
 

NorthernRedneck

Well-known member
GOLD Site Supporter
My truck is equipped to run ethanol. I've never used the stuff though since it's not available in my area.
 

muleman

Gone But Not Forgotten
GOLD Site Supporter
Can you say ADM? The largest Ag co. in the world has a big stake in this flop. They have actually been doing genetic research to try to get more ethanol from certain strains of corn. A local co. recently completed a large plant near Williamsport,Pa. to refine it and are now talking about converting it to bio-diesel since the demand has shrunk. It has ruined fuel pumps and ate up the fuel lines on a 2 year old suburban of mine. Now that the warranty is out I expect more fuel system problems down the road.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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It's going to get worse . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/10/automobiles/10ETHANOL.html?_r=1&ref=global-home

May 10, 2009
Ethanol Industry’s 15% Solution Raises Concerns
By CHRISTOPHER JENSEN

The Environmental Protection Agency is preparing to make an important and far-reaching decision this year that will affect more than 500 million gasoline engines powering everything from large pickups to family cars to lawn mowers: whether to grant the ethanol industry’s request to raise the maximum amount of ethanol that can be added to gasoline.

That request has engine manufacturers and consumer advocates worried about possible damage, service station owners in a tizzy over the financial and legal implications and a leading petroleum industry group saying the move is unwise and premature.

Specifically, ethanol producers are asking that the maximum ethanol content in the most common blend of gasoline be increased from 10 percent — a limit set about three decades ago — to as much as 15 percent. The blend the industry hopes will become common is known as E15, but the E.P.A. could approve a blend between E10 and E15.

Last year, nearly three-quarters of the gasoline sold in the United States contained some ethanol, according to the American Petroleum Institute. E10, which is 10 percent ethanol, is by far the most common fuel, though the E.P.A. has approved the use of ethanol blends up to 85 percent — but only for the limited number of new and late-model cars and trucks certified by manufacturers as “flexible fuel vehicles.” The ethanol industry wants E15 to replace E10 as the standard fuel found at most stations.

The issue came before the E.P.A. in early March when Growth Energy, an ethanol lobbying group, and 54 ethanol manufacturers asked the agency for a waiver of the Clean Air Act so that more ethanol could be added to gasoline.

Although the request went largely unnoticed by the public, it got the attention of anyone who makes or sells gasoline engines, as well as some environmentalists and consumer advocates.

Approving E15 would have a huge impact on consumers, said Clarence Ditlow, executive director of the Center for Auto Safety, and could cause problems including the voiding of car warranties. “There’s a lot to worry about,” he said. “All a consumer has to do is look at the fuels section of the owner’s manual, which says that the use of fuel above 10 percent ethanol may result in denial of warranty claims.”

Nearly 250 million cars and light trucks are registered in the United States, according to Experian Automotive. But the impact would be even broader. Kris Kiser, executive vice president of the Outdoor Power Equipment Institute, a trade group, estimates that a change would affect 300 million engines in everything from chainsaws to weed trimmers.

The National Marine Manufacturers Association says 12 million boat engines would also be affected.

Growth Energy, whose co-chairman is Wesley K. Clark, the retired Army general and former Democratic presidential candidate, has told the E.P.A. that it has proof from several studies that E15 will not damage engines and will result in cleaner air while reducing the nation’s reliance on oil.

The studies were done by groups including the federal Energy Department, the State of Minnesota, the Renewable Fuels Association, the Rochester Institute of Technology, the Minnesota Center for Automotive Research and Stockholm University in Sweden.

Michael Harrigan, a former Ford Motor Company fuel-system engineer who is now a consultant to Growth Energy, said automakers had been doing enough testing that there should be no problems using E15.

And Tom Buis, the chief executive of Growth Energy, said, “We are confident in the science we prepared.”



But confident or not, Growth Energy has plenty of opposition from groups that say some of the studies it cites are inconclusive. The critics also say its assertions are unproved and in some cases misleading.

While automakers generally favor wider use of biofuels, Charles Territo, a spokesman for the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers, a trade group representing 11 automakers, said Growth Energy had failed to prove that E15 would not damage vehicles engineered to run on a maximum of 10 percent ethanol. More testing is needed, he said.

“We are not asking for this to be delayed forever,” Mr. Territo said. “We are asking for this to be delayed until the testing is complete.”

Mr. Kiser, of the outdoor power equipment group, said some initial tests already indicated that E15 could cause serious problems — including safety issues — with some small engines.

At Honda, which makes a wide range of engines for products from minivans to power generators, the concern is that the effects of a big increase in an additive like ethanol are unknown, said Edward B. Cohen, vice president for government and industry relations at American Honda. “The impact can be on the emissions system, like the catalytic converter,” he said. “It can be on the various tubes or couplings that are part of the fuel system, and it could affect the performance of the vehicle, particularly cold starting.”

Honda can design engines to run well on new gasoline blends, Mr. Cohen said. The issue is the legacy fleet, whose engines were designed over two decades for varying requirements. There is no single answer, Mr. Cohen said, to the question of how E15 would affect them.The American Petroleum Institute is also concerned, said Robert Greco, the group director of downstream and industry operations. He said more research was needed — probably several years’ worth — before the institute would be convinced that E15 was safe for so many different kinds of engines.

“We think that the current waiver request is premature,” Mr. Greco said. “The science isn’t in yet.”

And Jeremy Martin, a senior scientist at the Union of Concerned Scientists, an environmental advocacy group based in Cambridge, Mass., said there was simply not enough solid information on which to make a decision that would have such a broad impact.

“We shouldn’t just look at a little data and extrapolate,” he said. “There are rules here, and there are procedures. And there is a proper engineering way to come to this determination. One can guess about the most likely outcomes, but that is not sufficient to put all the fleet at risk.”

Wendy Clark, group manager and principal researcher in the fuels performance group at the Energy Department’s National Renewable Energy Laboratory, said a lot of credible organizations were studying E15. But she said it was too early to know for sure how engines would be affected. One question is how many of the studies will be done before Dec. 1, the date by which the E.P.A. is required by law to make its decision.

Mr. Ditlow of the Center for Auto Safety said: “What the ethanol people are asking the consumer to do is bear the risk. If only 1 percent of the vehicles on the road today had E15-related problems, that would be about 2.5 million vehicles.”

Among those concerned about the proposed change are service station owners, many of whom fear that their pumps and fiberglass storage tanks would need to be replaced. They also fear legal problems including lawsuits from customers claiming their vehicles were damaged by the fuel.

“It is a horrible thing for our members,” said Carl Boyett, president of the Society of Independent Gas Marketers of America.In their March request to the E.P.A., proponents of the waiver said E15 would provide “increased energy security, enhanced economic development, creation of American jobs, reduced transportation costs and environmental benefits.” The ethanol manufacturers contend that the increase is necessary because of the Energy Independence and Security Act of 2007. That act includes a renewable fuels standard that requires a steady increase in the use of biofuels in the United States — to 36 billion gallons in 2022 from 11 billion gallons this year. To meet the goals, refiners must add biofuels to gasoline.

The industry has been meeting the requirements. In 2007 , it was required to use 4.7 billion gallons of ethanol and it actually used 6.85 billion, according to the petroleum institute. Last year, when the requirement was 9 billion gallons, the industry used 9.6 billion.

But Americans are now buying far less gasoline than was expected when the law passed. That decline has the industry worried that as early as 2011 or 2012 it will be impossible to meet the renewable fuels standard with a 10 percent limit, Mr. Greco said.

Mr. Buis of Growth Energy said: “We are up against a blend wall. That cap needs to be raised.”

While adding more ethanol would help refiners meet the law, it would not improve fuel economy. An October 2008 study for the Energy Department tested 16 late-model cars and found, on average, that mileage dropped 5 percent with E15 compared with gasoline that contained no ethanol.

In deciding whether to raise the cap, the E.P.A. says it must consider not just emissions, but also vehicles’ durability and drivability “over their useful lives.” The agency has acknowledged that E15 is a complex issue, given that engines vary widely in their age and sophistication. Some might run fine on E15 while others might be susceptible to problems.

The E.P.A. says one possibility is that it could approve the use of E15 for some vehicles or engines but not for others.

Mr. Martin of the Union of Concerned Scientists says tests may show that vehicles produced starting with 2004 models could run safely on E15. That year, more sophisticated engine controls were required, making it more likely their systems could detect and compensate for fuel variations. About 79 million cars and light trucks have been produced since the 2004 model year, Experian Automotive says.

Mr. Buis of Growth Energy said that the advantages and safety of E15 were clear and that allowing higher ethanol content would help to make the nation less dependent on petroleum. He said there was no reason to delay.

“You know, some people don’t want to do anything — they just want to test, test, test or study, study, study,” Mr. Buis said. “You know, this nation has been stalling for 30-some years from becoming energy independent.”
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
Can you say ADM? The largest Ag co. in the world has a big stake in this
And that's the whole story. ADM is so big that they can put their own men in Congress and dictate national energy policy.

Ethanol makes no sense from the energy or environmental perspective. It is a goldmine from the ag producer's perspective.
 

thcri

Gone But Not Forgotten
And that's the whole story. ADM is so big that they can put their own men in Congress and dictate national energy policy.

Ethanol makes no sense from the energy or environmental perspective. It is a goldmine from the ag producer's perspective.

Not so fast on that comment. Ethanol is big here because of the corn belt but the farmers are now starting to worry. Corn is dropping in price while the fertilizers and other chemicals are rising. Some of the farmers were forced to buy their materials last year to protect larger increases. They locked in at too high of a rate. At the rate they bought last year and the corn price this year they won't come out.

This is all hear say. I have no documentation to this other than leaning up against the fence posts and talking to my farmer friends.


murph
 

California

Charter Member
Site Supporter
You're right, at the detail level.

What I meant was that the national policy to subsidize ethanol with taxpayer dollars created a new demand, and a new opportunity for profits, that didn't exist before.

As always, farmers can't control the price they receive and because of competition, end up producing at just over cost. The guys who put up the money to lobby for the subsidy and for the new national energy policy, are the big winners. ie ADM.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Funny,:glare:

I have a 1992 1/2 ton Ford pickup truck, with the 300 inline six, fuel injected. It has run e-10 for 293,000+ miles and has NEVER been in the Ford dealership for a repair. Not ever a single fuel injector replaced. Lawn mowers, snowmobiles, weed eaters all of it run e-10 here, as this is about all we can buy. Frankly I don't see what any of these Nay sayers are talking about. David Pementel reasearch is fraudulent, as I have picked it apart, and for what he claims we use for fuel to farm, you could BUY the farm.:yum: If you take time to find out who paied for his reasearch at Cornell, you would find the tracks of big oil, and the large livestock integrators like Smithfield foods, Hormel, Tysons ect. along with Mobile Exon, ect...By the way anyone named "Tad" at Berkly, Kalifornia I anin't going to believe anyway....:yum::yum:

These guys are the crooks here. They feel very threatened, and are paying to hired guns to create a pannic fear whirlwind to smear a fuel extender that works quite well. By the way you guys are talking here, I would have to say they are succeeding quite well that your car is going to die along with every internal cumbustion engine you own. They payed well I am sure for the lies they bought to get you to this place. I farm several thousand acers of corn and soybeans. Bio Diesel is being attacked by these same forces. They took there "science" to Wash DC years ago and lost. BIG TIME. Congresss did the unthinkable to them, and now with time money and lies, they are going to get you to believe that every thing that will go wrong with your car is because it has ethanol in your fuel. Play your fears to get what they want, NO COMPETITION. The livestock companies were born and raised on 20 years of $2 corn while the tax payer picked up the difference in hundreds of millions of dollars in subsidy payments to farmers they NO LONGER MAKE, saving you money they (big meat) were indirectly pocketing.. Now these livestock barrens have to actually pay for their feed, and they are pissed!

So be very carefull who you believe. They have big money at stake and they will hire anyone qulified to complicate this issue and lie through their teeth, as this congressionally created industry is hurting their bottom line. The are no longer making 30% on their money each year at your expence.

Most of the problems experienced with E 10 can be directly attributed to the gasoline it was blended with. Substandard low octain gas can be brought up to 87 octane with a shot of ethanol. Be carefull where you buy it. Honest suppliers, no problems. I know, We have been using it since about 1980 here in Iowa.

Let the attack begin.....I always get attacked when I write about this subject. This is testimate to how powerful lies can be if told often enough and in the right places. Joes Goebles did it with Nazi Germany quite effectively......They become the "truth"

Regards, Kirk
 
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XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
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SUPER Site Supporter
Kirk,

I don't have a problem with ethanol but I do have a problem with mandated ethanol. I can't buy non-ethanol gas anymore. It's all got 10% ethanol and it gives me less mileage than I used to get on straight gas.

Ultimately, the issue here is freedom of choice. If Ethanol has legs then let it stand on its own. Don't prop it up with the government crutch.
 

RobsanX

Gods gift to common sense
SUPER Site Supporter
Kirk,

I don't have a problem with ethanol but I do have a problem with mandated ethanol. I can't buy non-ethanol gas anymore. It's all got 10% ethanol and it gives me less mileage than I used to get on straight gas.

Ultimately, the issue here is freedom of choice. If Ethanol has legs then let it stand on its own. Don't prop it up with the government crutch.

So pack up and move to a state where you can get no ethanol. That seems to be the conservative solution to just about every complaint.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
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So pack up and move to a state where you can get no ethanol. That seems to be the conservative solution to just about every complaint.

I would except soon it will be a Federal mandate. The writing is on the wall, the fix is in for the big corn producers their lobbyists did good. Even though there product is less efficient and more expensive to produce we will all be forced to consume it. No freedom of choice there.
 

DaveNay

Klaatu barada nikto
SUPER Site Supporter
I would except soon it will be a Federal mandate. The writing is on the wall, the fix is in for the big corn producers their lobbyists did good. Even though there product is less efficient and more expensive to produce we will all be forced to consume it. No freedom of choice there.

You can't buy leaded gas either...did your dad bitch about that in the 70's too?
 

RobsanX

Gods gift to common sense
SUPER Site Supporter
You can't buy leaded gas either...did your dad bitch about that in the 70's too?

Actually that happened in the late 80's. I was driving a '68 Ford pickup that took "Regular", and it was still available. Not much longer after that though.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
You can't buy leaded gas either...did your dad bitch about that in the 70's too?

Nope but I don't think my dad was much of a gear-head. I remember the transition though.

So you add 10% Ethanol to get "cleaner" burning gas when compared gallon per gallon with conventional pure dino-gas.

You now get 15-30% worse fuel economy per gallon. So you know are probably burning more overall dino-fuel to achieve the same amount of distance.

Not to mention that it costs more in energy to produce ethanol (or commercially viable bio-diesel) than it does to drill for oil.

There is no common sense or even reasonable explanation for this mandate. Other than to fill the coffers of the corn farmers by driving up the (government enforced) market demand for their product.

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/08/cr_ethanol.html

Ethanol Cleaner But Not Cheaper


August 31, 2006

Tests and an investigation by Consumer Reports conclude that E85 ethanol will cost consumers more money than gasoline and that there are concerns about whether the government's support of flexible fuel vehicles is really helping the U.S. achieve energy independence. Findings from CR's special report include:

• E85, which is 85 percent ethanol, emits less smog-producing pollutants than gasoline, but provides fewer miles per gallon, costs more, and is hard to find outside the Midwest.

• Government support for flexible-fuel vehicles, which can run on either E85 or gasoline, is indirectly causing more gasoline consumption rather than less.

• Blended with gasoline, ethanol has the potential to fill a significant minority of future U.S. transportation fuel needs.
To see how E85 ethanol stacks up against gasoline, Consumer Reports put one of its test vehicles, a 2007 Chevrolet Tahoe Flexible-Fuel Vehicle (FFV) through an array of fuel economy, acceleration, and emissions tests.
Overall fuel economy on the Tahoe dropped from an already low 14 mpg overall to 10. In highway driving, gas mileage decreased from 21 to 15 mpg; in city driving, it dropped from 9 mpg to 7.
You could expect a similar decrease in gas mileage in any current flex fuel vehicle because ethanol has a lower energy content than gasoline -- 75,670 British thermal units (BTUs) per gallon instead of 115,400 for gasoline, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. As a result, you have to burn more fuel to generate the same amount of energy.
With the retail pump price of E85 averaging $2.91 per gallon in August, according to the Oil Price Information Service, a 27 percent fuel-economy penalty means drivers would have paid an average of $3.99 for the energy equivalent of a gallon of gasoline.
When Consumer Reports calculated the Tahoe's driving range, it found that it decreased to about 300 miles on a full tank of E85 compared with about 440 on gasoline. So, motorists using E85 would have to fill up more often.
Most drivers in the country have no access to E85, even if they want it, because it is primarily sold in the upper Midwest; most of the ethanol in the U.S. is made from corn, and that's where the cornfields and ethanol production facilities are located. There are only about 800 gas stations -- out of 176,000 nationwide -- that sell E85 to the public.
When Consumer Reports took its Tahoe to a state-certified emissions-test facility in Connecticut and had a standard emissions test performed, it found a significant decrease in smog-forming oxides of nitrogen when using E85.
Despite the scarcity of E85, the Big Three domestic auto manufacturers have built more than 5 million FFVs since the late '90s, and that number will increase by about 1 million this year.
A strong motivation for that is that the government credits FFVs that burn E85 with about two-thirds more fuel economy than they actually get using gasoline, even though the vast majority may never run on E85. This allows automakers to build more large, gas-guzzling vehicles than they otherwise could under Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules.
As a result, these credits have increased annual U.S. gasoline consumption by about 1 percent, or 1.2 billion gallons, according to a 2005 study by the Union for Concerned Scientists.
 

Trakternut

Active member
So far, North Dakota has the option of non, or ethonal gas. E-85 got a nice tax break when it first came available. I didn't seriously crunch numbers, but I figured that the cheapr E-85, coupled with the drop in mileage probably cost pretty close to the same as burning straight dino fuel per mile. Once the tax break came off, E-85 went much higher than straight gasoling.
E-10 is usually the same price as straight gas at the pump, or a few cents either way. I burn it in the winter time strictly for the alcohol, thus not needing to add gas line antifreeze. In summer, I switch to straight dino. I don't notice any change in performance or mileage when I run either way, myself.
I will agree that the cost of producing corn booze is higher and leaves a larger carbon foot print. Here we go;
1) Farmer plants corn, burns diesel fuel in his machinery.
2) Farmer sprays corn to kill pests and weeds.
3)Farmer harvests corn, burning diesel fuel in combines, trucks, and tractors.
4)Often, Farmer has to dry corn to a level where he can store it in his bins. Burns a LOT of propane doing that.
5)Farmer sells corn. Hauls it to the elevator, again, burning diesel fuel in his truck.
6)Elevator ships corn out by rail. Train locomotives burn diesel fuel.
7)Ethanol plant processes corn, burning carbon fuel to do the job
8)Ethanol is shipped to the pipeline terminal to be mixed with gasoline. Trucks burn diesel there too.
9)Gasoline/ethanol mix is shipped to the station for sale. Again, a diesel burning truck does the job.

So, why don't we cut out all the crap in the middle and just burn diesel fuel in our vehicles?


(Sigh) I know, Gubment says they don't run clean enough for 'em. :whistling:
Sure made a lotta progress, didn't we? :glare:
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
You guys don't think dino fuel has a carbon foot print? Come on now you had better crunch some numbers from the well in Sadi Arabia, across the contanet to a tanker, across the ocean to a port, pipe lined to a refinery, trucked just the same as ethanol. Plus more water is used in the refinery process for oil than for ethanol production. Ever dollar by the way spent here to our shores leaves our shores to a foreign country, most likely a Islomic one to boot. At least with ethanol some of the money stays home, creates good jobs, and and lowers tailpipe emmisions. Milage will drop slightly with e 10 by nothiing like the conveniently show example posted here where they were testing E 85. So ethanol is slightly less energy dense than gasoline. Big deal. It represents one piece in the puzzle of several pieces (hybrid, and electric, ect.) to get us all towards energy independence. You have to stop thinking of just your self for a moment to get this. You got to think collectively about what we want for our future in the nation. Energy independence or at least less dependence is a worthy goal in my mind and evidentally our leaders minds as well. That is the biggest reason this course of action was chosen and fallowed. What would hep alot for ethanol prices out side the midwest would be dedicated pipelines cross country to lessen shipping costs.

Regards, Kirk
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
We could have better energy independence if we were allowed to drive high efficiency diesels and drill our own oil.
 

Trakternut

Active member
You guys don't think dino fuel has a carbon foot print? Come on now you had better crunch some numbers from the well in Sadi Arabia, across the contanet to a tanker, across the ocean to a port, pipe lined to a refinery,usually pipelined to a terminal closer to the market THEN trucked just the same as ethanol. Plus more water is used in the refinery process for oil than for ethanol production. Ever dollar by the way spent here to our shores leaves our shores to a foreign country, most likely a Islomic one to boot. At least with ethanol some of the money stays home, creates good jobs, and and lowers tailpipe emmisions. Milage will drop slightly with e 10 by nothiing like the conveniently show example posted here where they were testing E 85. So ethanol is slightly less energy dense than gasoline. Big deal. It represents one piece in the puzzle of several pieces (hybrid, and electric, ect.) to get us all towards energy independence. You have to stop thinking of just your self for a moment to get this. You got to think collectively about what we want for our future in the nation. Energy independence or at least less dependence is a worthy goal in my mind and evidentally our leaders minds as well. That is the biggest reason this course of action was chosen and fallowed. What would hep alot for ethanol prices out side the midwest would be dedicated pipelines cross country to lessen shipping costs.

Regards, Kirk

Note the bold, italicized change I made to your post.

Petroleum can be pumped through a pipe for as long of distance as you want it to be without degrading the quality. Not so with ethanol. It can't be pumped any distance at all or it's just a liquid in a pipe with little fuel value left due to evaporation of the component that enhances flamability.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
I disagree, and so do the folks who are right now making plans for a dedicated pipe line, just for ehanol. Why would being put in a pipe running underground some how render ethanol useless? No chemical change occures.... It just is a problem sharing pipelines with petrolium products, is my understanding.

Regards, Kirk
 

loboloco

Well-known member
I disagree, and so do the folks who are right now making plans for a dedicated pipe line, just for ehanol. Why would being put in a pipe running underground some how render ethanol useless? No chemical change occures.... It just is a problem sharing pipelines with petrolium products, is my understanding.

Regards, Kirk
Simple chemistry. Ethanol is just alcohol. Alcohol evaporates out of the medium liquid at normal temperature. Pressure and refrigeration can slow but not stop this process.
 

300 H and H

Bronze Member
GOLD Site Supporter
Pipelines are closed systems underpreasure, and cold because they are underground. Trust me it can and will be done in the not so distant future. It is truely amazing to me how you guys come up with this....

Regards, Kirk
 

loboloco

Well-known member
Pipelines are closed systems underpreasure, and cold because they are underground. Trust me it can and will be done in the not so distant future. It is truely amazing to me how you guys come up with this....

Regards, Kirk
Well, we actually read and study. Alcohol is Good at seeping out where its not wanted to. Will be real interesting to watch the fires off a long distance pipeline.
 
D

darroll

Guest
You get terrible mileage with the corn fuels.
Plus you starve the people that rely on cheap corn for food.
 
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