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A third political party ?

jdwilson44

New member
Just found this article - seems that there are a lot of people thinking a viable third political party may be what this country needs.....


From http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3395977/


May 5, 2006 | 12:09 PM ET
With American politics in a particularly unsatisfying place, we're starting to hear more talk about a third-party candidate in 2008. People are unhappy with both parties over immigration policy: a recent Rasmussen poll asked if voters would support "a third party candidate [who]ran in 2008 and promised to build a barrier along the Mexican border and make enforcement of immigration law his top priority." Many respondents (both Republicans and Democrats) answered yes. Rasmussen was quick to observe that the response " probably reflects unhappiness with both parties on the immigration issue rather than a true opportunity for a third party," but I'm not so sure.

Democratic pollster Mark Blumenthal thinks that Rasmussen has it backwards, and that the question actually demonstrates desire by Americans for a third party for reasons that go well beyond immigration, and I think he' probably right. Third parties tend to arise when large numbers of Americans think that the two traditional parties aren't doing a very good job. And right now, that condition obtains: Both parties aren't doing a very good job, even by the low standards of recent politics.

As the Rasmussen poll indicates, both Democrats and Republicans face splits over immigration. Each party has substantial constituencies (traditional conservatives in the GOP, African-Americans in the Democratic Party) who have reason to oppose open immigration, and it wouldn't be a surprise if those constituencies abandoned their parties to support a third party that promised a tougher line. But that's just the beginning. In an NBC/Wall Street Journal poll last week, the single biggest concern named by respondents, ahead of immigration, was Congressional pork: 39% said that Congress wasn't doing a good enough job of controlling earmarks. Feeling betrayed, some Republican voters are vowing to stay home rather than support a "small government" party where Sens. Trent Lott (R-MS) and Ted Stevens (R-AK) can secure hundreds of millions of dollars for local goodies without much in the way of resistance or repercussions. Democrats might benefit if disenchanted voters sit things out, but that also means that there are a lot of voters that a third party might pick up. And plenty of Democratic voters are less than overjoyed with their party, too.

The conventional wisdom, of course, is that a third-party candidate can't win. That's been the lesson of recent history. But had Ross Perot been a bit less kooky, he might have pulled off a victory in 1992. And technology for mobilizing disaffected voters has advanced beyond the state of the art then, which consisted of toll-free telephone numbers. Thanks to the Internet and alternative media, reaching disaffected voters and rallying them behind a candidate is likely to be much, much easier than it was back in the 20th Century. (We saw an early illustration of this phenomenon with the insurgent campaign of Howard Dean, who, if he had been a bit less kooky, might have pulled off a victory in the Democratic primaries.)

Electoral laws in many states remain, by design, barriers to third party efforts, but as Ross Perot and Ralph Nader demonstrated, they are not insurmountable. Other barriers, barriers of fundraising, media attention, and voter organization, are much easier to overcome today than they were in the previous decade. (Someone should write a book about that.) A popular candidate, in these times, could put together a formidable political machine in short order, and have volunteers on the ground before the two traditional parties could respond. The Internet has already given us flash mobs and flash media -- a "flash campaign" isn't too hard to imagine.

The two big political parties of today seem a bit like the three big auto companies in the 1960s: Outdated organizations producing a product that consumers aren't that happy with, unworried about outside competition. Competition and consumer dissatisfaction dealt the Big Three a serious blow. The Big Two may want to start improving their own products before the competition arrives.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
The time may be right if a viable (non-kooky) candidate can be found and is willing to take the challenge.

No single interests like environment, anti-business, anti-union, pro-choice, pro-life.

Just a common sense PRO-AMERICAN man (or woman) with a Teddy Roosevelt (big stick) mindset, who can think outside the Beltway Box.

Liberals are finished if they re-run a Gore, Kerry, Dean type, unless Conservatives stay home because they feel disenfranchised.

We voters are our own worst enemy. A 50/50 vote does not send a mandate demanding what we really want.
So we elect a weak, gutless compromise. Politicians LOVE a weak, gutless compromise. They can do business as usual.
 
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johnday

The Crazy Scot, #3
SUPER Site Supporter
I've thought we've needed a third party way before Perot. We need someone who can do something about the erosion of the middle class. I don't think it's a secret any longer that war has been declared on most of us. And who's fault is that? It's our own, by not getting involved, and voting for the least of the two evils. I can honestly say, that I have a hard time voting for an elephant or a jackass. I could go on for quite awhile with this, but it's hard to put in words. Suffice it to say, "they" are not going to be happy until we wind up with a two class society, and if your only a millionaire, forget it buddy, you'll be making bricks the old fashioned way right along with me.:mad::mad:
 

HGM

New member
Its prety sad that the common answer to who someone voted for is,"the lesser of two evils"..... We should have a hundred candidates to choose from with no parties... Abolish the Dem's and Rep's all together... Just have a bunch of candidates speaking their mind and earning the votes on national TV...Hell, it works for American Idol, why wouldnt it work for someone that effects all of our lives... Anyone who changes his/her opinion after hearing their oponents veiw is disqualified.. Anyone who contradicts their stand after being elected is penalized, after three strikes, the runner up gets the job....

In all reality, I believe we need more control and decision making on a local level.. Too much is put on the national governments plate.. They sould be for national protection and as a tie breaker of sorts for the local government.. Someone in DC making my decisions in my state just doesnt sit well for me..
 

jdwilson44

New member
I am one of those people who quite frankly has not paid much attention to the political process for a long time. Lately I have been paying a lot more attention and the more research I do the more it scares me how corrupted the political process has become in this country. The mechanics of our goverment have been slowly altered and refined so that any candidates not from the Demopublican party are very effectively squeezed out. Federal goverment power has slowly but surely increased to the point where states in many cases do not have much say over what goes on. There are a number of things that are subtle but effective ways that that process has been rigged in favor of the politicians and the goverment and against the citizens:

- House of Representatives is limited to 435 members. If the House of Reps was not limited this would mean that the voters would have a more direct pipeline to the government, limiting the numbers means that some states can gain numbers of reps at the expense of other states - not exactly "representative" in my book.

- rigged debates. The presidential debates have always been rigged in some way or another, in the last election I believe Ralph Nader was kept out. Somebody ought to do an alternative debate and not rig who can participate and who can ask questions.

- Goverment subsidies to states. Just another way for the Feds to exercise control over what the states can do. We ought to figure out what percentage of the Federal Goverment budget goes directly back to the states, then cut the federal goverment budget by that %, cut the income tax rate by an equal %, and let the states figure out how to make up the difference. Even if the states were to raise their taxes by an equal amount to what the federal tax was cut in the end you would at least have a more efficient system because the money wouldn't be doing a as much of a merry go round before it finally makes it's way back to where it gets spent.

- It's the Constitution dammit. The more I read and research the more I realize that more and more the Federal Government doesn't give a damn about the US Constitution. The first and second amendments seem to be the ones most violated but there are plenty of others that don't get taken seriously either. John McCain forever crossed himself off my list of potential candidates I would vote for when he proposed that internet sites that comment on politics would be shut down for up to 60 days before an election. Hello Bueller - first amendment - it's the first one, which means that it was the one the founders thought was the most important - don't you get it?

There are more but I just get angry when I think about this stuff. Basically what my readings reinforce is what my gut has been telling me for a long time from my day to day life and experiences - the goverment does not really care about the people any more :mad: .

At this point I have come to the conclusion that our fight should not be with an particular candidate or party but with the system as a whole. To anybody who uses the excuse when they vote that " it was the lesser of two evils" I have to say that you are as much a part of the problem as any of the rest of it. If somebody were to give you the choice of torturing a defenseless animal or little baby to death or shooting it in the head, would you choose shooting it in the head because it was "the lesser of two evils" or would you simply refuse to participate or rebel against whomever was forcing you to make the choice?

Currently the citizens of this country still have the option of affecting our govermental processes - if we let things continue in the direction they have been slowly but steadily going sooner or later we won't.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
For whatever you think it is worth, the LIBERTARIAN PARTY is considered to be the 3rd largest party in the US.

http://www.lp.org/

We actually have a modestly successful Libertarian Party in Indiana.


Libertarian Mike Kole Running for Indiana Secretary of State
Matthew Dailey

*Libertarian Mike Kole is running for Indiana Secretary of State and has been actively campaigning since last spring. He is also an active member of the Libertarian Party and recently stepped down as Chair of the Hamilton County chapter of the Indiana Libertarian Party in order to focus on his campaign.

At the April 29th state convention, Kole received the official nomination of the Libertarian Party of Indiana. His two opponents in the fall election are Green Party activist Bill Stant and Republican incumbent Todd Rokita.

Fair elections is one of the issues Kole is highlighting in his campaign. Kole is in favor of voting machines that leave a paper trail. If a recount is needed, election officials can easily check the printout from the voting machines. Kole also wants to end the use of primaries for choosing candidates for office. Candidates should be chosen at their respective party's convention, in Kole's view. Kole argues that the two major parties in Indiana often use the primaries for private party business, such as choosing state convention delegates.*

Kole is a strong supporter of property rights. He notes that only the Libertarian Party is standing up for Indiana property owners. According to Kole, the eminent domain issue has been very successful for the Indiana LP. Many people, who haven't considered the Libertarian Party in the past, are now taking a second look at the party.

Kole stated that he would work towards ending eminent domain abuse. He believes eminent domain should only be used strictly for public uses. Kole also opposes communities attempting to forcibly annex neighboring communities. In Kole's opinion, this practice is all about grabbing more tax dollars.

Kole wrote in a recently published letter to the editor, about an attempt by the Town of Fisher, Indiana to forcibly annex neighboring communities in the Geist Reservoir area. He wrote, "The burden is on the Fisher Town Council to show Geist residents that there is something more awaiting them than a higher tax bill. Better yet, the burden is on local Republican officials to show that there is more to their thinking than entertaining schemes for raising taxes and bonding capability."

One of the responsibilities of the Indiana Secretary of State is the regulation of the securities industry and the chartering of new businesses. Kole is planning on meeting with CPAs and small business owners across the state to find out which regulations are the most onerous to them. Kole will use the advice given to him during these meetings to campaign to eliminate those business regulations that do more harm than good.

The Indiana Libertarian Party is looking at the Secretary of State race as a way to get major party status. If Mike Kole received 10 percent of the vote in November, the Indiana LP will be designated a major party in Indiana. The party is targeting this race because of the lack of major party opposition.

© Copyright 2005 National Libertarian Party

 

jdwilson44

New member
B_Skurka said:
For whatever you think it is worth, the LIBERTARIAN PARTY is considered to be the 3rd largest party in the US.

http://www.lp.org/

We actually have a modestly successful Libertarian Party in Indiana.


Libertarian Mike Kole Running for Indiana Secretary of State
Matthew Dailey

*Libertarian Mike Kole is running for Indiana Secretary of State and has been actively campaigning since last spring. He is also an active member of the Libertarian Party and recently stepped down as Chair of the Hamilton County chapter of the Indiana Libertarian Party in order to focus on his campaign.

At the April 29th state convention, Kole received the official nomination of the Libertarian Party of Indiana. His two opponents in the fall election are Green Party activist Bill Stant and Republican incumbent Todd Rokita.

Fair elections is one of the issues Kole is highlighting in his campaign. Kole is in favor of voting machines that leave a paper trail. If a recount is needed, election officials can easily check the printout from the voting machines. Kole also wants to end the use of primaries for choosing candidates for office. Candidates should be chosen at their respective party's convention, in Kole's view. Kole argues that the two major parties in Indiana often use the primaries for private party business, such as choosing state convention delegates.*

Kole is a strong supporter of property rights. He notes that only the Libertarian Party is standing up for Indiana property owners. According to Kole, the eminent domain issue has been very successful for the Indiana LP. Many people, who haven't considered the Libertarian Party in the past, are now taking a second look at the party.

Kole stated that he would work towards ending eminent domain abuse. He believes eminent domain should only be used strictly for public uses. Kole also opposes communities attempting to forcibly annex neighboring communities. In Kole's opinion, this practice is all about grabbing more tax dollars.

Kole wrote in a recently published letter to the editor, about an attempt by the Town of Fisher, Indiana to forcibly annex neighboring communities in the Geist Reservoir area. He wrote, "The burden is on the Fisher Town Council to show Geist residents that there is something more awaiting them than a higher tax bill. Better yet, the burden is on local Republican officials to show that there is more to their thinking than entertaining schemes for raising taxes and bonding capability."

One of the responsibilities of the Indiana Secretary of State is the regulation of the securities industry and the chartering of new businesses. Kole is planning on meeting with CPAs and small business owners across the state to find out which regulations are the most onerous to them. Kole will use the advice given to him during these meetings to campaign to eliminate those business regulations that do more harm than good.

The Indiana Libertarian Party is looking at the Secretary of State race as a way to get major party status. If Mike Kole received 10 percent of the vote in November, the Indiana LP will be designated a major party in Indiana. The party is targeting this race because of the lack of major party opposition.

© Copyright 2005 National Libertarian Party





Some of the most sensible writings I have read recently were from Ron Paul a Libertarian US Rep from Texas:

http://www.house.gov/paul/

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul-arch.html


I also recently read that William Weld (ex-governor of MA) is running for governor of New York - as a Libertarian.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter

Hutchman

New member
Site Supporter
I've thought for years we needed a viable third party. Neither major political party has John Q's best interests at heart. I tend to not follow politics too closely so I may be completely off base, but I've been thinking Johm McCain might jump ship and go out on his own. He's a Republican but doesn't seem to mind rattling his own party's cage. He is popular enough that if he ran on a third party ticket he'd pull a lot more votes his way than anybody else could right now. Hutch
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
Hutchman said:
I've thought for years we needed a viable third party. Neither major political party has John Q's best interests at heart. I tend to not follow politics too closely so I may be completely off base, but I've been thinking Johm McCain might jump ship and go out on his own. He's a Republican but doesn't seem to mind rattling his own party's cage. He is popular enough that if he ran on a third party ticket he'd pull a lot more votes his way than anybody else could right now. Hutch

McCain is too politically aligned to todays politics and political party to be a viable 3rd party candidate. We need someone who is not already corrupted by the political system of today. It will need to be someone that can step up and gain the confidence of the citizens on both sides of the political process to get elected. Again whoever is elected will need to have support of Congress, which also needs a drastic makeover of new faces to accomplish anything worthwhile.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
jdwilson44 said:
At this point I have come to the conclusion that our fight should not be with an particular candidate or party but with the system as a whole. To anybody who uses the excuse when they vote that " it was the lesser of two evils" I have to say that you are as much a part of the problem as any of the rest of it. If somebody were to give you the choice of torturing a defenseless animal or little baby to death or shooting it in the head, would you choose shooting it in the head because it was "the lesser of two evils" or would you simply refuse to participate or rebel against whomever was forcing you to make the choice?

Right you are...... Right, Right, Right..... Our present SYSTEM is the enemy.

There are at least FOUR major hurdles to overcome before there can be a viable 3rd party.

1) Public Apathy: Politics begins at the local level. Both Democrats and Republicans work the same way. There are local clubs. Those clubs select delegates to a state level committee. That committee selects which candidates are selected. The selected candidates are the ONLY candidates who appear on the ballot that the voters can vote for.

2) Campaign Finance Reform: The law has to be changed. The politicians who hold office now are the only ones who can change the law, and they’re not going to vote for a law that is against their own self serving interests.

3) Money: Until there is meaningful campaign finance reform, winning elections requires BIG money. Where does that money come from? Multimillionaire Ross Perot didn’t have enough to combat the picture the news media painted. Ralph Nader received money from radical environmental groups and other sinister sources.

4) Work: So, how many of us are going to start changing the system by joining a political party, give up one evening a month to attend a stupid, boring political meeting, speak our minds, and risk alienating our neighbors?

Sorry, just saying, “I’m an independent voter” just doesn’t cut it. That means squat. More than likely some Republican or Democrat candidate will be elected. Those are your choices that someone else has given you (the lesser of two evils).

Come to think about it.......... If the SYSTEM can be changed, do we really need a 3rd party?
 

AndyM

Charter Member
HGM said:
Its prety sad that the common answer to who someone voted for is,"the lesser of two evils".....

Indeed. After all, the lesser of two evils is STILL evil.
 

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
HGM said:
Its prety sad that the common answer to who someone voted for is,"the lesser of two evils"..... We should have a hundred candidates to choose from with no parties... Abolish the Dem's and Rep's all together... Just have a bunch of candidates speaking their mind and earning the votes on national TV...Hell, it works for American Idol, why wouldnt it work for someone that effects all of our lives... Anyone who changes his/her opinion after hearing their oponents veiw is disqualified.. Anyone who contradicts their stand after being elected is penalized, after three strikes, the runner up gets the job....

In all reality, I believe we need more control and decision making on a local level.. Too much is put on the national governments plate.. They sould be for national protection and as a tie breaker of sorts for the local government.. Someone in DC making my decisions in my state just doesnt sit well for me..


Golly Gee, someone that thinks like I do. NO parties, NO process other than vote for the person YOU think is best qualified, then hold that person to the grindstone on what they said in their campaign.

Only one thing left out, THEY RUN ON THEIR OWN MONEY, NO contributions, collecting, business giving, OWN MONEY. NO one with money would spend 75 million to get a 400K job
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
ddrane2115 said:
Golly Gee, someone that thinks like I do. NO parties, NO process other than vote for the person YOU think is best qualified, then hold that person to the grindstone on what they said in their campaign.

Only one thing left out, THEY RUN ON THEIR OWN MONEY, NO contributions, collecting, business giving, OWN MONEY. NO one with money would spend 75 million to get a 400K job

And you really think that would work?

I can just see the newspapers after the election..............


Our next President is John Q. Lunatic from Moon River. He won over the other 143,453 candidates and was the top vote getter with .0034% of the vote.

Mr. Lunatic pledged to release all the inmates from the asylums as soon as he is sworn in, as he promised to do during his campaign.

The other 99.9966% of the voters are outraged, claiming they never heard anything about Mr. Lunatic’s plan. Lunatic claims that’s not his fault.

“I spent as much as I could trying to inform all the people. I only had $673.23 to spend. That’s was my entire welfare check,” Lunatic responded.


Yup................... Sounds like a plan.
 

ddrane2115

Charter Member
SUPER Site Supporter
First place, someone that would say something like that would NOT get elected.........and you know it.

POINT is that the current system is so full of corruption it is not even funny.
 

Dutch-NJ

New member
ddrane2115 said:
First place, someone that would say something like that would NOT get elected.........and you know it.

I don't know any such thing. Have you heard some things said by candidates?

My favorite is when Senator George McGovern promised to crawl on his knees to Hanoi, and beg for peace.

How about when Al Gore said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

John Kerry's now infamous words, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”

Bill Clinton's testimony, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Here are a few more.

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country." Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.

"It is wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago." Dan Quayle.

“It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." Dan Quayle.

"The President has kept all the promises he intended to keep." Clinton aide George Stephanopolous.

"We expect the Salvadorean officials to work towards the extremination of human rights." Dan Quayle.

"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers We are the president." Hillary Clinton.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" George W Bush

"Making a speech on economics is a bit like pissing down your leg. It seems hot to you but never to anyone else." Lyndon B Johnson

And if that's not enough, here are a few million more.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=political+quotes+stupid+funny&btnG=Search

ddrane2115 said:
POINT is that the current system is so full of corruption it is not even funny.

What is a good amount of corruption for it to be funny?

(Just my sick little joke.)
 

jdwilson44

New member
mtntopper said:
McCain is too politically aligned to todays politics and political party to be a viable 3rd party candidate. We need someone who is not already corrupted by the political system of today. It will need to be someone that can step up and gain the confidence of the citizens on both sides of the political process to get elected. Again whoever is elected will need to have support of Congress, which also needs a drastic makeover of new faces to accomplish anything worthwhile.

After McCain's recent proposal to censor internet sites from commenting on the political process for up to 60 days before an election I would never vote for him no matter what political party he might happen to run under. Somewhere along the line you have to set limits and any candidate who would actually come out in favor of censorship (against the 1st amendment) gets crossed off my list.
 

jdwilson44

New member
Dutch-NJ said:
I don't know any such thing. Have you heard some things said by candidates?

My favorite is when Senator George McGovern promised to crawl on his knees to Hanoi, and beg for peace.

How about when Al Gore said, "During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the Internet."

John Kerry's now infamous words, “I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it.”

Bill Clinton's testimony, "It depends upon what the meaning of the word 'is' is.

Here are a few more.

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country." Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC.

"It is wonderful to be here in the great state of Chicago." Dan Quayle.

“It isn't pollution that's harming the environment. It's the impurities in our air and water that are doing it." Dan Quayle.

"The President has kept all the promises he intended to keep." Clinton aide George Stephanopolous.

"We expect the Salvadorean officials to work towards the extremination of human rights." Dan Quayle.

"I'm not going to have some reporters pawing through our papers We are the president." Hillary Clinton.

"Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning?" George W Bush

"Making a speech on economics is a bit like pissing down your leg. It seems hot to you but never to anyone else." Lyndon B Johnson

And if that's not enough, here are a few million more.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=political+quotes+stupid+funny&btnG=Search



What is a good amount of corruption for it to be funny?
(Just my sick little joke.)


With the use of the internet you finally have medium where a candidate that does not have a lot of money but has a good message can finally talk directly to the voter. In my mind at least this finally gives us a way to start to weed out some of the influence of money from the campaigns. If there was a REAL set of debates where candidates other than those from just the Demopublicans were allowed to participate - the voters could see many faces and many points of view and use those candidates internet sites to further narrow down the choices. Having too many choices can be bad too but a process would develop around that to narrow them down - just as the current process has developed to take away your choices and leave you with just the two less than satisfactory choices we typically get.

BTW - I think you were actually making Danny's point for him Dutch with your above examples - after all if this is what the idiots who we let get thru the process say how much worse could it possibly get?
 
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