Hezbollah Wins!

Melensdad · Aug 15, 2006

Every report I see, hear or read states that Hezbollah won. The issue of of Hezbollah has only been delayed. It issue of Israel's existance is now in greater long term doubt.

The Middle East's Leading English Language Daily

Tuesday, 15, August, 2006 (21, Rajab, 1427)
Heroic Resistance Energizes Arab Street
Siraj Wahab, Arab News —

JEDDAH, 15 August 2006 — The Lebanese resistance’s month-long stand against the region’s mightiest army has earned it praise in the Arab world and raised hopes of a possible change in pro-Israeli Western policies. It has energized the Arab street and is being viewed as a cause for celebration despite the incredible toll the war has taken on Lebanon.

“An army that was freely supplied by the United States with Apache gunship helicopters, armored personnel carriers and laser-guided missiles still couldn’t vanquish Hezbollah,” wrote an Egyptian newspaper in its editorial yesterday. “None of the Israeli war aims were achieved,” pointed out a Saudi newspaper. “The soldiers that Hezbollah captured last month are still in Hezbollah hands,” it said.

“Hezbollah still retains the capability to fire as many Katyushas as they want into northern Israel (it fired more than 250 rockets on Sunday, the highest since the fighting started July 12). Hassan Nasrallah, the Hezbollah chief, whom Israel had publicly threatened to liquidate, is alive and kicking and appears regularly on his Al-Manar TV channel mocking the Israelis. This is nothing short of a miracle. Naturally the Arab street is energized,” said the newspaper.

“From Indonesia to Morocco, people stood behind Lebanon and Hezbollah fighters in their fight against Israeli aggression,” said a top Saudi journalist. “There is a lesson here for the United States — that it cannot win against the will of the people,” he said. “Israel can and did bomb Lebanon to smithereens, but that will not stop the struggle for freedom. Hezbollah has demonstrated that Israel is not invincible despite all the support it gets from the world’s only superpower.”

The Israelis, say Saudi liberals, must learn from history and not be blinded by arrogance. “Hong Kong was ceded to China after 150 years of colonial rule. The day came when apartheid was cast out of South Africa. India won its freedom after a heroic struggle and the Berlin Wall did come down,” said a Jeddah-based Saudi columnist. “The Israelis have created their own apartheid. They have built a wall and made conditions for Palestinians and the Lebanese as bad or worse as any that existed under colonialism anywhere in the world. There is no way they can win. The occupation has to end.”

As writer Ahmed S. Al-Shatea pointed out nobody in the Arab world expected Hezbollah to win the war. “After all, it is a local militia with the support of one section of one community in Lebanon. It was pitted against the regional superpower that has full military and political support of the world’s only superpower. And the United States, by delaying the UN cease-fire resolution, gave one full month to Israel to finish off Hezbollah. Still Israel could not win, nor could Hezbollah be defeated,” Al-Shatea said.

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq · Aug 15, 2006

The PLO long ago set the standard that those who control the media will always "win" in the media. Hezbollah is just following the example of all the others.

Honestly, I think they did a good fight and it should serve an important wake-up call to the "west" (including Israel) that we need to stop being so PC and really start kicking asses in these conflicts.

I see alot of spin on these stories: Basically, the Hezbollah muslims are saying that Israel didn't completely squash us like a bug so we one! Even though the casualties and damage to Lebanon was severe they didn't totally annihilate us so we are the winners! That's great logic - isn't it?

Dargo · Aug 15, 2006

Well, I guess my logic is twisted, but they seem to be asking to be removed from the face of the earth in the next battle. It seems to be taunting Israel and the U.S. to kill every last Arab in the conflict or the Muslims will claim victory. The Muslim community obviously places very little value on human life; their own or their enemy. It sounds bad, but a group of people who place no value on human life forces the sane person to ask why leave any of these people breathing? Do all Muslims want to die?

Glink · Aug 15, 2006

I think you also have to take into account that this declaration of victory is coming from a group of folks that can send a group of "soldiers" into a "mission" and have everyone of them killed (suicide) and celebrate that as victory.
Twisted logic you say?

LarryRB · Aug 15, 2006

hezbolla hasn't won for its self in Lebanon as much as it has won for Iran, and somewhat Syria.,. Here are the two countries that support Hezbolla and both openly want Israel and it's people turned to dust. Therefor Iran and Syria win by being support proxy's and they aren't even involved..

Big Dog · Aug 15, 2006

Look at Southern Beruit and Hezbollah headquarters, yeah they won, a hell'uva mess. It's funny how Nasarallah took so much credit for driving Israel out of Lebanon before the bombs hit.

Then he got blamed by many Lebanonese during the bombings that he contributed to Beruit's destruction. It was a burp on the news, I'm sure many missed it thanks to the media.

Now he takes credit for winning the conflict and promises aid in reconstruction..................... :pat:

Crazy b@st@ds are as gullible as a 5 year old and we know 5 year olds always win the war, hit the winning home run and out draw you in a gunfight........... Spare me please .............. alot like the liberal media!

Hey how about strappin on a bomb!!!!!!!!

Hummmmmmmmmm, I guess there may be some kind of connection ..... :puke1:

daedong · Aug 15, 2006

Just my 2 bobs worth.
[FONT=&quot]It was in my view irresponsible under the circumstance (fragile cease fire) that Bush came out and declared anyone a winner or loser of this conflict. It was nothing short of being a provocative statement by your leader.
[/FONT]

Melensdad · Aug 15, 2006

daedong said:
Just my 2 bobs worth.
[FONT=&quot]It was in my view irresponsible under the circumstance (fragile cease fire) that Bush came out and declared anyone a winner or loser of this conflict. It was nothing short of being a provocative statement by your leader.
[/FONT]

Unfortunately it is not the first time he has made questionable comments. He is not as good an orator as either Mr. Clinton or Mr. Reagan. Heck I think some would argue that he is not as good as some pre-school kids.

[SIZE=+2]Hezbollah the Loser In Battle, Bush Says[/SIZE]
President Cites Plans for Lebanese Control

[SIZE=-1]By Michael A. Fletcher
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, August 15, 2006; A08[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
[/SIZE]President Bush asserted yesterday that Hezbollah was defeated in its month-long conflict with Israel, casting the fighting that killed hundreds of Lebanese and Israeli civilians as part of a wider struggle "between freedom and terrorism."

As a U.N.-imposed truce seemed to be holding yesterday, Bush made clear that he blames Hezbollah and its patrons, Iran and Syria, for igniting the conflict. "We recognize that the responsibility for this lies with Hezbollah," Bush said. "Responsibility lies also with Hezbollah's state sponsors, Iran and Syria."

Bush warned Tehran to stop backing militias in Lebanon and in Iraq, where U.S. officials have long accused Iran of feeding the sectarian violence that is threatening to erupt into a full-scale civil war.
"In both these countries, Iran is backing armed groups in the hope of stopping democracy from taking hold," Bush said. "The message of this administration is clear. America will stay on the offensive against al-Qaeda. Iran must stop its support for terror, and the leaders of these armed groups must make a choice. If they want to participate in the political life of their countries, they must disarm."
.

There is no question in my mind that among the Muslim world, the Hezbollah won the war because they still have their arms, they still have the Israeli soldiers, and their leader is still alive. To them that is winning. I can't say that I disagree either. In fact, I tend to agree with them. By standing up to the biggest guy on the block they gained reputation. Sure then got beaten up a bit, they got a black eye, but they are still standing. In many ways, that is winning.

Big Dog · Aug 15, 2006

B_Skurka said:
Unfortunately it is not the first time he has made questionable comments. He is not as good an orator as either Mr. Clinton or Mr. Reagan. Heck I think some would argue that he is not as good as some pre-school kids.

There is no question in my mind that among the Muslim world, the Hezbollah won the war because they still have their arms, they still have the Israeli soldiers, and their leader is still alive. To them that is winning. I can't say that I disagree either. In fact, I tend to agree with them. By standing up to the biggest guy on the block they gained reputation. Sure then got beaten up a bit, they got a black eye, but they are still standing. In many ways, that is winning.

You can spin it anyway you want and thats exactly what is happening.......... :pat:

Bush's statements brought me to the conclusion that the win was in the US involvement with the negotiations, the resulting cease fire, stopping more loss of life, and a chance at Lebanon independence/democracy. Not necessarily that one or the other side was broken. Jee guys, What's he suppose to say???? Just like how Nasarallah took liberty I guess. I take exception to implications with his winning quotes. It's not like he said "Israel kicked ass" ............ :pat:

Q: Mr. President, both sides are claiming victory in a conflict that's killed more than 900 people. Who won? And do you think the cease-fire will hold?
BUSH: We certainly hope the cease-fire holds, because it is step one of making sure that Lebanon's democracy is strengthened. Lebanon can't be a strong democracy when there's a state within a state. And that's Hezbollah.

As I mentioned in my remarks, Hezbollah attacked Israel without any knowledge of the Siniora government. You can't run a government, you can't have a democracy, if you've got an armed faction within your country.

Hezbollah attacked Israel. Hezbollah started the crisis. And Hezbollah suffered a defeat in this crisis.

And the reason why is, is that, first, there's a new — there's going to be a new power in the south of Lebanon, and that's going to be a Lebanese force with a robust international force to help them seize control of the country — that part of the country.

Secondly, when people take a look-see, take a step back and realize how this started, they'll understand this was Hezbollah's activities, this was Hezbollah's choice to make.

I believe that Israel's serious about — of just for — of upholding the cessation of hostilities. The reason I believe that is I've talked to the prime minister of Israel about it. And I know the Siniora government is anxious that the hostilities stop and the country begin to rebuild.

I can't speak for Hezbollah. They are a terrorist organization. They're not a state. They act independently of, evidently, the Lebanese government. And they do receive help from the outside.

It does continue............ Find the full statement here

Text of Bush's statement on the Mideast

The word win is mentioned once ................. Bush didn't say it!
The word victory 3 times .............. Bush said it twice!

Not exactly the "Ass Kickin" statement I expected after reading Vin and Bob's post......................

Gonna have to give me more to buy into being pissed off at Bush even though I don't like all his decisions.

BTW.......Your gonna have to start reading what he's quoted as to the interpretation of a reporter!

Melensdad · Aug 15, 2006

Big Dog said:
You can spin it anyway you want and thats exactly what is happening..........

Greg, that is my WHOLE point to posting this thread. It is all being spun. Not just the Arab news but also the MSM is spinning it the same way.

Here is another version of the same thing, from the AP. Look at the Headline. The way the press works, the most "important" news is at the beginning of the article. The least important is at the end. At least in the eyes of the editor and the author. But if you want to see something that is not getting covered, go to the end of the article below. You will see that Egypt and Saudi Arabia are not happy with Syria and Iran. Most people don't read down that far!

Syria, Iran leaders praise Hezbollah

By DONNA ABU-NASR and ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press WritersTue Aug 15, 4:29 PM ET

The leaders of Iran and Syria crowed Tuesday that Hezbollah defeated Israel, with the Iranian president telling a cheering crowd that "God's promises have come true" and the Syrian chief saying U.S. plans for reshaping the Middle East have been ruined.

Tehran and Damascus may be the biggest winners from the 34 days of fighting in Lebanon — buoyed by the ability of ally Hezbollah to stand up to Israel's punishing assaults and by the new, widespread popularity of the guerrillas across the Middle East.

Hezbollah didn't come out of the war unscathed as a fighting force, and its domination of southern Lebanon and attacks on Israel are likely to be hampered by the deployment of the Lebanese army and international troops in that territory.

But the Shiite Muslim movement appears to have been strengthened inside Lebanon thanks to broadened support across the country's ethnic and religious communities.
Syria and Iran both ridiculed U.S. hopes for eliminating the guerrillas and belittled Israel's high-tech military as useless against Hezbollah.

"The Middle East they (the Americans) aspire to ... has become an illusion," Syrian President Bashar Assad said in Damascus.
"We tell them (Israelis) that after tasting humiliation in the latest battles, your weapons are not going to protect you — not your planes, or missiles, or even your nuclear bombs ... The future generations in the Arab world will find a way to defeat Israel," Assad added.

A few hours later, Iran's leader, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, saluted Hezbollah for hoisting "the banner of victory" over Israel.

"God's promises have come true," Ahmadinejad told a huge crowd in Arbadil in northwestern Iran. "On one side, it's corrupt powers of the criminal U.S. and Britain and the Zionists ... with modern bombs and planes. And on the other side is a group of pious youth relying on God."

Analysts said both countries now feel stronger in their own individual disputes with the West and that the alliance of their hard-line governments is stronger now, in contrast to the Mideast bloc of pro-U.S. governments.

"Both Syria and Iran have achieved a political victory," said Dawood al-Shirian, a Saudi Arabian who hosts a talk show on Dubai television. "Lebanon once again has paid a heavy price, and Syria and Iran have once again taken credit."

Iran may also feel its bargaining hand has become stronger as it approaches the Aug. 31 deadline set by the U.N. Security Council for a halt in Iranian uranium enrichment. Iran says it will announce Aug. 22 its reply to a package of incentives offered by the U.S. and Europe aimed at enticing it to suspend enrichment.

Mostly Shiite, Persian Iran may also try to ride the increased popularity of the Shiite Arabs of Hezbollah to make inroads with the Arab world's Sunni Muslims. The popularity of Hezbollah's chief, Hassan Nasrallah, has grown even among Sunnis in Saudi Arabia, whose strict school of Islam considers Shiites as heretics.

Arab countries — particularly in the Persian Gulf — are wary of Iran and its nuclear program, and the stronger that Iran is seen to be, the more nervous its regional rivals get.

Syria, in turn, may feel it can play a more influential role after years of isolation. It had been under even more international pressure since last year's assassination of former Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, which was widely blamed on Syria despite its denials.

Arab, U.S. and Western diplomats generally snubbed Syria during negotiations over halting the Lebanon fighting, but they may have to turn to the Syrian regime in the next big tussle, the issue of disarming Hezbollah.

A strong Hezbollah gives Syria a window to regain influence it lost in Lebanon last year when international pressure forced it to withdraw its troops from Lebanon after a 29-year presence.
In his speech, Assad lashed out at Arab regimes that criticized Hezbollah for capturing two Israeli soldiers July 12 and setting off the war. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan — all U.S. allies — opposed Hezbollah's actions at the start of the conflict.

"We do not ask anyone to fight with us or for us ... But he should at least not adopt the enemy's views," Assad said.

Oqab Sakr, a Lebanese analyst, said Assad's remarks were tantamount to "a final divorce from the Arab regimes and a full marriage with Iran."

Egypt and Saudi Arabia are already pushing back.
Saudi King Abdullah met with Iranian Foreign Minister Manouchehr Mottaki and underlined that the U.N. cease-fire resolution, which calls for disarming Hezbollah, be implemented.

A front page editorial in a state-run Egyptian newspaper derided Assad's speech — a rare overt criticism by one Arab government of another. Al-Gomhuria daily scoffed at Assad, saying he was celebrating "a victory scored by others."
"You should be prepared now for political and economic pressure put on you because of this speech," it said.

daedong · Aug 15, 2006

Big Dog

I am not sure what your point is. Bush used the words DEFEAT. Split hairs if you want it means the same thing.
“Hezbollah attacked Israel. Hezbollah started the crisis. And Hezbollah suffered a defeat in this crisis.”

It is provocative nothing less nothing more. That is irresponsible if he (Bush ) really want a cease fire to last.
[FONT=&quot]Hezbollah and its supporters see this like waving a red rage to a bull, so why the F### does he do it. Is he really that dumb or does he just want as much instability in the world he can create[/FONT]

Big Dog · Aug 15, 2006

What is he suppose to say? My point.........!

daedong · Aug 16, 2006

Big Dog said:
What is he suppose to say? My point.........!

He did not need to make any comment about defeat, winners or losers.
[FONT=&quot]And to think for one minute that hezbollah lost or are defeated is wishful thinking.[/FONT]

Big Dog · Aug 16, 2006

daedong said:
He did not need to make any comment about defeat, winners or losers.
[FONT=&quot]And to think for one minute that hezbollah lost or are defeated is wishful thinking.[/FONT]

Ah, In the USA our representatives are expected to hold press conferences in such situations and they do ask questions. "No comment" don't cut it!

Down under hasn't been hit with the Muslim/terrorist problem to the scale of the USA. It's easy to say when your removed from it and I would venture to say they wouldn't be as PC as the USA. You've posted articles implying as such. It's tough being number one ............ JMO, I'm mean no ill will!

Melensdad · Aug 16, 2006

Well I think what we are arguing about are 2 different things.

Clearly the Hezbollah lost militarily. It was pretty soundly thumped by the Israel Defence Forces who kicked some pretty good ass. The IDF destroyed the Hezbollah headquarters, a large amount of their infrastructure, and killed hundreds of their fighters. The one objective that Isreal hoped to achieve was to disarm the group and that was not accomplished.

Clearly, within the Arab world, the Hezbollah won the war of public relations. The big oppressive super power backed IDF could not squash the Hezbollah. Therefore the Hezbollah won.

HONESTLY I THINK the next 30 to 90 days will determine a lot. Currently the leader of Hezbollah is pledging up to 1 Billion Dollars to rebuild houses and shops that were destroyed. They are buying loyalty and membership. But there is a large undercurrent of discontent in Lebanon toward the Hezbollah for starting the war.

If the Hezbollah is NOT disarmed then I think there will be long term problems that the Hezbollah brings upon itself. The international community is demanding to disarm them. They are embolded right now and may make a mis-step and believe they can maintain their weapons. However news out of Egypt, Saudi Arabia and other moderate Arab nations suggests that they will help disarm Hezbollah. Realize that many Arab nations do not trust Iran, everyone knows Iran is the financial backer of the Hezbollah. Trouble is brewing.

Spin the headlines and public opinion however the press chooses, but the undercurrent is suggesting that Hezbollah is a rouge group that will be de-fanged.

Dargo · Aug 16, 2006

B_Skurka said:
Currently the leader of Hezbollah is pledging up to 1 Billion Dollars to rebuild houses and shops that were destroyed. They are buying loyalty and membership. But there is a large undercurrent of discontent in Lebanon toward the Hezbollah for starting the war.

I read that earlier in a news article. Where is ole "Head of Terror" getting all his money? I believe in the "follow the money" cliche' to find the root of the problem. Also, what kind of "leader" is he sending his 'troops' into battle with the proverbial sticks and stones against a modern army? To pick a fight knowing that you'll lose big time just doesn't sound very smart except for the fact that he considers that he "won" because not every single one of his followers were killed.

Melensdad · Aug 16, 2006

The funding is clearly coming from Iran. It passes though Syria, which acts as the conduit. But Iran is very oil rich and a billion dollars is a drop in the bucket to them.

That is why I openly wondered in another thread if our national security would be best served by pushing aggressively to transition the US into an energy independant nation, or at least to dramatically reduce our needs for importing oil from hostile nations.

bczoom · Aug 16, 2006

B_Skurka said:
That is why I openly wondered in another thread if our national security would be best served by pushing aggressively to transition the US into an energy independant nation, or at least to dramatically reduce our needs for importing oil from hostile nations.

But won't China, Russia and other countries be buying whatever we don't so there will still be the influx of money into Iran?

Melensdad · Aug 16, 2006

Yes, other nations will buy oil. But overall if the biggest consumer of oil reduces its needs, the price will drop. Further, if we innovate and come up with alternate sources, other nations will do the same, leading to a long term reduction in demand. The laws of supply and demand will come to play.

BRAZIL has made great strides in this and has Ethanol power that is very prevalant, from home grown crops. It is possible and practical today.

daedong · Aug 16, 2006

Big Dog said:
Ah, In the USA our representatives are expected to hold press conferences in such situations and they do ask questions. "No comment" don't cut it!

Down under hasn't been hit with the Muslim/terrorist problem to the scale of the USA. It's easy to say when your removed from it and I would venture to say they wouldn't be as PC as the USA. You've posted articles implying as such. It's tough being number one ............ JMO, I'm mean no ill will!

All pollies in all western countries "No comment" doesn't wear you're no different in the USA

It was nothing to to with being PC, the fact is Hezbollah has not been defeated. As already stated it was a provocative statement and may I add wrong.

BTW, Bush was giving a prepared statement when he made this comment about Hezbollah being defeated.

Big Dog · Aug 16, 2006

daedong said:
It was nothing to to with being PC, the fact is Hezbollah has not been defeated.

I stated "Down under hasn't been hit with the Muslim/terrorist problem to the scale of the USA. It's easy to say when your removed from it and I would venture to say they {meaning Australia} wouldn't be as PC as the USA."

Clearly your statement above is out of context. My reference was totally removed form the subject at hand and steered towards Australia in how they handle Muslims. Not to mention the involvement of the US in the situation and the lack of others. HAd nothing to do with Bush's statements or Hezbollah. At least the US is doing something and too bad it's the French that's helping, but thats another thread..............

You know it's hard not to think about all the so called friends of the USA. They remain neutral and stay out of the way, don't rock the boat. All while these crazy bastards are building bombs (destructive, media etc, all inclusive), hindering air travel all over the world and continue to gain momentum and build power. The problem is their boat ain't been rocked! It's only a matter of time and we'll see how PC they are, the French don't count ........

.

I ain't gonna change your opinion nor you mine. Bring's me to another topic. Bush's tenure/agenda was set for him on 9/11, he didn't have the luxury of setting the tone, it was set for him. How soon we forget and I sure wouldn't expect a non-American to remember.

I'm now off my :soapbox:

daedong · Aug 16, 2006

Big Dog said:
I stated "Down under hasn't been hit with the Muslim/terrorist problem to the scale of the USA. It's easy to say when your removed from it and I would venture to say they {meaning Australia} wouldn't be as PC as the USA."

Clearly your statement above is out of context. My reference was totally removed form the subject at hand and steered towards Australia in how they handle Muslims. Not to mention the involvement of the US in the situation and the lack of others. HAd nothing to do with Bush's statements or Hezbollah. At least the US is doing something and too bad it's the French that's helping, but thats another thread..............

You know it's hard not to think about all the so called friends of the USA. They remain neutral and stay out of the way, don't rock the boat. All while these crazy bastards are building bombs (destructive, media etc, all inclusive), hindering air travel all over the world and continue to gain momentum and build power. The problem is their boat ain't been rocked! It's only a matter of time and we'll see how PC they are, the French don't count ........ .

I ain't gonna change your opinion nor you mine. Bring's me to another topic. Bush's tenure/agenda was set for him on 9/11, he didn't have the luxury of setting the tone, it was set for him. How soon we forget and I sure wouldn't expect a non-American to remember.

I'm now off my

These views about the rest of the world are misguided and demeaning to other western countries dealing with the threat of terrorism.

Cityboy · Aug 16, 2006

daedong said:
Big Dog

It is provocative nothing less nothing more. That is irresponsible if he (Bush ) really want a cease fire to last.
[FONT=&quot]Hezbollah and its supporters see this like waving a red rage to a bull, so why the F### does he do it. Is he really that dumb or does he just want as much instability in the world he can create [/FONT]

No matter what Bush says or does, it seems to me you have such a negative opinion of him that he can never do anything right in your eyes. Your words are pretty provacitive to many Americans and to some here. This is a two-way street. Think of how Austrailians would feel if we started calling your PM and political leaders stupid because they did not publically speak as we think they should.

daedong said:
These views about the rest of the world are misguided and demeaning to other western countries dealing with the threat of terrorism.

What about your views and Europe's views about America? Do you not think we might see your opinion as misguided as well? Are you working as hard to see the situation from our perspective as you want us to work to see yours and the "worlds"?

I agree with BD's assessment that were Austrailia attacked by Muslims within their country, the resopnse and rhetoric would be much stronger than that of President Bush, and you and the rest of your countrymen would rightfully be right on board with such a response.

Big Dog · Aug 16, 2006

daedong said:
These views about the rest of the world are misguided and demeaning to other western countries dealing with the threat of terrorism.

all the so called friends of the US (Greg's definition) - Those countries that say they support the fight on terror but take no action, spend token money (and/or spend money funded by others) and hope they get protection in return with no clear backing and support! I wasn't referring to the UK or the likes.

Vin you read too much into it and if I may, I'll do the same, you hate Bush.
Kerry, Gore, Kennedy and Hilliary do too. But while you mention other countries dealing with terror, I'd love to be educated on how other countries are handling terror and how much they spend doing it.

BTW....... I disagree with your above statement. Now before I say it, because it appears neither of us make ourselves perfectly clear, there are countries making significant headway. But in general, if what you said was true, the world would be further along in it's war on terror! Again, we'll agree to disagree............. :tiphat:

daedong · Aug 16, 2006

Cityboy said:
No matter what Bush says or does, it seems to me you have such a negative opinion of him that he can never do anything right in your eyes. Your words are pretty provacitive to many Americans and to some here. This is a two-way street. Think of how Austrailians would feel if we started calling your PM and political leaders stupid because they did not publically speak as we think they should.

I don’t know how you come to this view because I rarely make comment about GWB

If you find any of my comments provocative I apologise. I would have hoped I could speak as I see things on this forum with an open heart just like I can to my local neighbours

On your last point, I would agree that our PM is stupid, to use your words.

How do you feel the French and other nations feel when you openly slag them as a nation not just political leaders

Cityboy said:
What about your views and Europe's views about America?.

What are they

Cityboy said:
Do you not think we might see your opinion as misguided as well? Are you working as hard to see the situation from our perspective as you want us to work to see yours and the "worlds"? .

Yes and Yes

Cityboy said:
I agree with BD's assessment that were Austrailia attacked by Muslims within their country, the resopnse and rhetoric would be much stronger than that of President Bush, and you and the rest of your countrymen would rightfully be right on board with such a response.

I said Bush was wrong to say Hezbollah had been defeated It does not matter what country you live in he was factually wrong.

Do you think Hezbollah is defeated?

And finally there obviously is a cultural difference; many of you folks take exception to outsider’s views. Here in Australia (SP) we do not tend to be so defensive of our leaders or for that matter our nation. Outsiders could and should be allowed to have an opinion.

jdwilson44 · Aug 16, 2006

Everybody is running around claiming that this side won or that side won in the Israel vs. Hezbollah steel death cage match. The fact of the matter is that Israel did not achieve their objectives and they were bare minimum held back from achieving those objectives by a small non-state militia group. Also last time I checked there have been absolutely no news reports about Hezbollah using any sort of suicide missions in this latest battle. The reality of the suicide missions that have been used in the past is that they are used as a tool of warfare in a specific time and place.

The suicide bombing that killed the 241 or so Marines in Lebanon back in the 1983 achieved exactly what it was supposed to achieve - we left Lebanon. In purely cost vs benefit terms it was smart move - the life of 1 suicide bomber was given for the lives of 241 enemy ( to them) soldiers. If Hezbollah had resorted to using a conventional military attack against the Marines in their fortified barracks they probably would have lost many more men and not achieved what they did with that one bombing. The fact of the matter is that this is smart warfare - and as I said in another posting to this forum - we had better smarten up to this fact.

Agreeing with their goals or not is irrelevant to this situation - what matters is the "facts on the ground" so to speak - and the facts here are - again - that Israel did not achieve it's objective of establishing a buffer zone. They also lost a number of tanks to what are essentially infantry handled anti tank weapons. People who analyze warfare are watching what happened in Lebanon very closely - again I refer you back to the William Lind article I put up in the previous posting. Now that Hezbollah has demonstrated that what amounts to a well armed and well trained militia can take on and do quite well (lets leave the word "win" out of this) against what has been considered one of the best armies in the world the Iranians, Syrians, Al Queada, Iraqis, Taliban, etc. now have tactics they can use to potentially defeat us. If we do not recognize and deal with this we are being stupid - plain and simple.

If you want to find out more about how this changes the nature of warfare do some Google searches for 4th Generation Warfare - or 4GW - or also articles by William H. Lind. This applies directly to our little adventure in Iraq because the Iranians supported Hezbollah - so you know what Hezbollah knows was taught to them by the Iranians - and if we decide to invade Iran we will be facing the same tactics. When our goverment finally figures out that a volunteer army will not supply them the amount of troops they need to support this little Mideast adventure we are in if/when the shit finally hits the fan you may see the draft come back in this country. It has already been talked about. So the reality is here that - once again - we need to smarten the hell up about what is really going on. The life you save may be your own or of somebody near and dear to you.

Cityboy · Aug 18, 2006

daedong said:
If you find any of my comments provocative I apologise. I would have hoped I could speak as I see things on this forum with an open heart just like I can to my local neighbours

Of course you can speak as you see things here, open and honest; and we are friends and neighbors. This is a learning experience for all of us here at FF, and one of the coolest things about it to me is the opinions of our international members. I admit, sometimes I get a little surprised by the opinions of others, and I know I have mis-interpreted peoples intent at times because of the culture differences. I imagine it is the same with you folks down under and across the pond as well.

daedong said:
How do you feel the French and other nations feel when you openly slag them as a nation not just political leaders

What must be understood here, is that we make fun of the French because.....well...because they're French.

daedong said:
I said Bush was wrong to say Hezbollah had been defeated It does not matter what country you live in he was factually wrong.

Do you think Hezbollah is defeated?

I think Bush's intent was misconstrued. What I understood Bush to say was that in this circumstance or series of battles, hezbollah was beaten. Were the completely eliminated as a terrorist organization? No, of course not. They will regroup and rearm with the help of other Islamic nations and will live to fight another day.

Sometimes I think we all tend to pick nits with our words and interpret someones statements, especially political leaders statements as something more than they were intended to be. Or we spin it to mean what we want it to mean.

Big Dog · Aug 18, 2006

Cityboy said:
Of course you can speak as you see things here, open and honest; and we are friends and neighbors. This is a learning experience for all of us here at FF, and one of the coolest things about it to me is the opinions of our international members. I admit, sometimes I get a little surprised by the opinions of others, and I know I have mis-interpreted peoples intent at times because of the culture differences. I imagine it is the same with you folks down under and across the pond as well.

What must be understood here, is that we make fun of the French because.....well...because they're French.

I think Bush's intent was misconstrued. What I understood Bush to say was that in this circumstance or series of battles, hezbollah was beaten. Were the completely eliminated as a terrorist organization? No, of course not. They will regroup and rearm with the help of other Islamic nations and will live to fight another day.

Sometimes I think we all tend to pick nits with our words and interpret someones statements, especially political leaders statements as something more than they were intended to be. Or we spin it to mean what we want it to mean.

Well said CB, I think the same thing but can't put it so eloquently!

Melensdad · Aug 18, 2006

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Interviews at the Wailing Wall

Jerusalem, Israel (AP) -- Rebecca Smith, CNN

A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish
man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray,
twice a day, every day, for a long, long time. So she
went to check it out.

She went to the Western Wall and there he was walking
slowly up to the holy site. She watched him pray and
after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using
a cane in a very slow fashion , she approached him for
an interview.

"I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. Sir, how long have you
been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the
Muslims. I pray for all the hatred to stop and I pray
for all our children to grow up in safety and
friendship."
"How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

"Like I'm talking to a f**kin' wall."

.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/18/mideast.france.ap/index.html

jakki · Aug 18, 2006

B_Skurka said:
"Like I'm talking to a f**kin' wall."

Hezbollah Wins!

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