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THIOKOL/LMC/DMC Technical Issues Forum Technical repair issues & questions for Thiokol/DMC/LMC

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Old 12-08-2017, 03:58 PM
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Lightbulb Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

So I am that guy that tries to supercharge or turbocharge everything (you should see my margarita blender - my source of inspiration). Yes, it is a curse...

Has anyone thought of turbocharging the v4 to gain some HP and maybe midrange torque? Would the drive train handle this? I think the v4 has a plastic timing chain sprocket but I saw a metal replacement being sold somewhere. If you update the timing chain sprocket, use some stiffer valve springs, a pressurized Holley carb, custom exhaust manifolds, and a turbo off of a Suzuki Swift do you think it could be done? What else would need to be changed? What kind of gains or losses could be expected?

Here is a link to one that has been done in a SAAB:

https://www.saabplanet.com/saab-96-v4-turbo/

This is theoretical (or perhaps just plain rhetoric lol) at this point but would like to get some thoughts from people who have actually dug into the v4.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:24 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I like Ford turbos... From my Powerstroke to my SVO or Turbo Coupe. I am getting ready to put together a Ranger turbo now.
I think you'd need forged pistons at least. The cast pistons would melt unless you ran real low boost. (Less than 10psi??). What's the point?
As I understand it, the V4 has common pistons with the Mercury Capri 2600 V6 of the same era. Years ago to hot rod the V6 guys were using 2.3 pistons.
You could get quality pistons easily if that's true. Back in the day...Racer Walsh was a performance company that supported small Fords and does still exist. Then the tranny...
Another way would be a 2.3T with an automatic. Lots of support is available for that.
As an Imp 1404 owner I can't imagine what 150+hp would be like. Would need air ride seats and racing harnesses. Probably a roll cage too.
Here's a photo of my SVO's 2.3T with the intercooler on top.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:17 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Or just pitch all of that and drop in a wankedy wanking wankel from an RX7, oh yah baby, power check, torque HUGE check, lightweight check
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Old 12-18-2017, 04:13 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I think the Pinto pistons are forged and fit the v4. Before spending too much time on this I am still trying to figure out how much HP and torque the drive train will take. I am still waiting on my receiving my Imp so I can dig into it and figure out what tranny it has. Also not sure what the C4 will take. I am guessing the ride is pretty stiff in the Imp and pitches alot?
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Old 12-18-2017, 10:07 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

There are 2 "pinto" engines. 2.0 and 2.3. The 2.3 is different from the 2.0. The 2.3 grew into the 2.5 eventually in the Rangers. Most stock engines are only cast pistons. You'll find forged pistons only in the 2.3 turbo version (and possibly some industrial 2.3's).
The tranny is going to be an issue. It is not that strong. On the V4 Imps I think it's a T-96? I would compare it to an old Jeep T-90. Any big power upgrade would show in tranny wear or breakage. (I've wasted several T90's, and a T86aa, in a stock jeep with a v6.)

Wankel would be ok size wise. The last thing I'd want in a snowcat is a high rpm engine. Wankel's don't have much torque (or power) in the low end and aren't the most durable. Imps already have a 1.2 why swap to another 1.2 or 1.3? Let's turn 7000+rpm and see what snaps.
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Old 12-18-2017, 12:23 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Ride quality in my 1404 is rough and loud. Fore and aft bucking. Like a old short Jeep. Hard pack is worse than nice soft snow. I only have foam filled tires in the front, the rest have air and slime. They say foam filled tires make for a rougher ride.
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Old 12-18-2017, 09:47 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

A super IMP would be a better choice. That OC4 rear diff. is not up to larger amounts of HP. Not to mention parts are some what scarce, and expensive..

The Super Imps have the OC 12 and an auto already in the mix. Lager motors as well. That is exactly the reason Thiokol created the super version, what your talking about doing to a regular Imp... Not to mention they are longer and ride better as well and being a lot faster.

JMHO

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Old 12-19-2017, 01:11 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Hmmm, there is a lot of mixed info on these forums regarding c-4 and oc-12, some say there are more parts availability for the c-4 then the oc-12 and others say it is the other way around. Someone also described the front tranny as being stout, others say not so. I wish there were some spec sheets on these. I am also not sure how many HP the engine is, the brochures on the safety one site say 80 or 85HP but I hear a lot of people say 45 or 50HP. Also not sure how many liters the v4 is. I think it is a 1.5 but now I am hearing 1.2 or 1.3. Is it possible the specs changed over the years? At the end of the day is 100HP too much for the drive train?
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Old 12-20-2017, 01:00 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

The early 1200 Spryte A-verision had 170 CID Fords (peak HP 100 /peak torque 156 ft-lbs) in them with the same OC-4 and gear box as in a regular Imp. Spryte C-version had 300 CID Fords (peak HP 115 to 150/peak torque 260 ft-lbs) with a OC-12 and auto. trans. C-version weighted about a ton more than an A-version; don't know how much is due to bigger engine/trans/rear-end

Machine weight and work load determine the torque needed to move it. The stress in rear end components is governed by the torque applied to it. Focus on torque - not H.P.

Last edited by zspryte; 12-20-2017 at 01:01 AM. Reason: missed something
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Old 12-20-2017, 12:49 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I mentioned 1.2 and 1.3 referencing the Wankels. I thought the Imp 1404 was a 1.2... Nope, a 104 cubic inch engine is 1.7 liters (thanks google).
My tranny is tiny. It must have quite small gears. Bigger is better, right?
Shifting on the fly takes practice, and then conditions must be perfect. I'd like an auto (like the Super Imp).
I've never tried to shift the OC-4 on the fly. Paranoid I guess.
80 or 85 horse?? Top speed (whatever it is? No speedo just a tach) is thrilling. Steers very quick and it is limited by gear ratios. I'll let ya know how it goes on a frozen lake one day soon.

Last edited by Thebartman; 12-20-2017 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 12-20-2017, 06:51 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I think the 104 Cubic inch would reference the outer dimensions of the block and the liters would be the inner dimensions, no? This Wikipedia article seems to think it is a 1.5 Liter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taunus_V4_engine#1.5

I am not trying to be argumentative or "right" just trying to get to the bottom of this.

Does the A Spryte have the same front tranny? I would think the C-4 should be able to handle 100HP and about 120 lbs torque being a tractor axle. If they proved unreliable on the A Spryte I would guess weight and load would have something to do with it.

I am beginning to think the issue with more HP in the 1404 Imp is going to be unsafe speed for such a short and narrow vehicle? I just want to be able to do 30KMs/hour on a groomed trail but looks like I may be asking too much.

In regards to the rough ride has anyone put in air ride seats? I saw some bases on the internet you could use to convert your existing seats to air ride. I was thinking of doing this to my dually as it rides like a cement truck but can't find the link. I think National Seating made/sold them.

Can't shift on the fly? I am going to have to start another thread...
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:33 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Cubic inches and liters mean the same thing. One is SAE (American) and the other metric. It's the displacement of the engine. How much air it takes in. Each cylinder with the piston at the bottom has a certain volume. In the case of your V-4 that would be all 4 cylinders. So the bore of one cylinder in your 1.5 liter engine is 90mm, the stroke is 58.86mm. Using an online volume calculator because I am no math whiz tells us that that cylinder can hold .37 liters. Times 4 cylinders and you have 1.48 liters. The design of the head and piston can change the displacement. Boring out the block will make it bigger. Changing the crankshaft for a different stroke will change the displacement. The turbo will force in more air making it act like a bigger engine.
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Old 12-20-2017, 09:34 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rodre View Post
I think the 104 Cubic inch would reference the outer dimensions of the block and the liters would be the inner dimensions, no? This Wikipedia article seems to think it is a 1.5 Liter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Taunus_V4_engine#1.5

I am not trying to be argumentative or "right" just trying to get to the bottom of this.
Start here:
"the volume of air pumped is the size." When our race engines get pumped the cyl got a graduated tube/funnel in the spark plug hole. antifreeze was put in the vial the engine rotated 180 degrees at a turn volume measured and size and compression ratio calculated....... cc cubic centimeters CI cubic inches, L's just move a decimal point from cc's

Does the A Spryte have the same front tranny? I would think the C-4 should be able to handle 100HP and about 120 lbs torque being a tractor axle. If they proved unreliable on the A Spryte I would guess weight and load would have something to do with it.

"In my experience, Most OEM A models did not have a front trans,,,,,,"

I am beginning to think the issue with more HP in the 1404 Imp is going to be unsafe speed for such a short and narrow vehicle? I just want to be able to do 30KMs/hour on a groomed trail but looks like I may be asking too much.
"You will get 30Km if you want it in a stock 1404, I don't care for that pace. It is fun when I partaking in some bourbon and the occupants are of the same dare devil nature...... Once in a while to just realize your alive. but if you want to travel at that pace in a tracked vehicle, be prepared to practice, that takes some experience." FWIW there is some video that I can't believe did not surface yet from the summer clowder of a 1402 drifting in high range.....

In regards to the rough ride has anyone put in air ride seats? I saw some bases on the internet you could use to convert your existing seats to air ride. I was thinking of doing this to my dually as it rides like a cement truck but can't find the link. I think National Seating made/sold them.

Can't shift on the fly? I am going to have to start another thread...
They can be shifted, If you can shift a 3 lever mack or a duece, You can attempt to speed match a brake steer diff, there is a lot going on there between drop boxes and straight cut gears. sans syncros.....

You need a cat or three.... Stat....
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Old 12-21-2017, 12:37 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

For clarification - both A-version Sprytes and early Imps had OC-4 rear ends with a Clark, model S70F-12, transmission attached/mated to them. In these set ups there is no transmission bolted to the engine. A-versions Spryte weights 3600 pounds and Imps 2600 pounds. Imp manual claims stock top speed is 25 MPH. Yeap - getting OC-4 parts can be a challenge now

A turbo on a regular Imp might be too much unless your run at higher elevations and are just trying to recover what elevation took away
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Old 12-28-2017, 01:23 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Before I try to run it in 4/4 to achieve 30 km/hour can someone tell me the danger(s) of moving at that speed? Is it just a rough ride or will it flip? What is a safe speed?
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Old 01-04-2018, 12:59 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I took the Imp out for a 80KM run which had about 18 inches of fresh powder for 60KMs of it. I had a GVWR of about 3800 lbs. (two people including me at 215 lbs. and my passenger at about 125 lbs and the back full of gear, tools, and food). I found in the powder you could not really even get moving in range 4 on the c-4 so I was starting in range 3. In the powder I was doing about 25-30KM in 3/3. In the groomed snowmobile sections I was able to go to 3/4 and was getting about 30-35KMs/hour. It was definitely a smoother ride in the powder. Washboard and potholes were terrible because they would trigger the rocking. Steering was adequate despite my Imp wanting to drift to the right but that is a whole other thread. I could see where if you lost control it would be fast and sudden, as with any short wheel-based vehicle. I went through various elevations ranging from about 2000 ft to 5400 ft and the power appeared good as well although I never spent any time at 5400 ft and just drove through it.

I know that if you turbo charged this you would definitely need a larger fuel tank to go any real distance.
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Old 01-04-2018, 06:41 AM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

I think adding more horsepower to the imp is just a recipe for trouble. The ring and pinion in the c4 differential is marginal in strength for the machine with normal loading and the torque of the v4 with its two transmission gear reduction.JMO. Don
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Old 02-06-2018, 12:18 PM
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Default Re: Let's Talk Turbo (on a v4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PJL View Post
Cubic inches and liters mean the same thing. One is SAE (American) and the other metric. It's the displacement of the engine. How much air it takes in. Each cylinder with the piston at the bottom has a certain volume. In the case of your V-4 that would be all 4 cylinders. So the bore of one cylinder in your 1.5 liter engine is 90mm, the stroke is 58.86mm. Using an online volume calculator because I am no math whiz tells us that that cylinder can hold .37 liters. Times 4 cylinders and you have 1.48 liters. The design of the head and piston can change the displacement. Boring out the block will make it bigger. Changing the crankshaft for a different stroke will change the displacement. The turbo will force in more air making it act like a bigger engine.
I wanted to clarify PJL a little. The design of the head and piston will affect the compression ratio (and hp) by changing the volume of the combustion chamber at TDC. Adding a turbo changes the effective compression ratio by increasing the density of air at the intake. Boosting an engine can be real hard on it if it was not built with a nitrided crank, forged pistons, heavy rods, sodium valves, etc. (because of the higher air density in the cylinder) If you are just going to use it for normalization (maintaining sea level pressure at altitude) with an automatic waste gate that would be ok. Then you get into after coolers and higher engine compartment temps and all of that. I think just putting in a newer modern engine and tranny with better parts availability would solve all of your issues.

You might check out Anthonydold's forum http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=60334 He put a 2.3 Ford Mustang engine and an A4LD automatic tranny in his 1404.

I would still be wary of over torqueing the OC4. I know of one in a 1200A that broke an axle and another that took teeth off the pinion. The torque at the axle can be extremely high with the bigger engines. That rear end was originally designed for Oliver crawlers and was used in the 1400, 1401, 1402, 1404 and 1200A. All but the 1404 and 1200 were 30hp or less. For reference, at wide open throttle, the engine in a 1402 (30 hp) is about 56 ft/lbs at 2800 rpm. After the clutch/reduction gear it is 112 ft/lbs at 1400 rpm into the OC4.

You can find a HP-RPM-Torque calculator here: http://spicerparts.com/calculators/h...que-calculator
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