Snow Trac Starter issues

I had starting issues yesterday. Got it off the trailer just fine and then couldn't start it. Bummer because I can't get it back on the trailer without it starting.
I had two issues.
1) the starter was turning the engine fine but started to grind and then eventually it just whirs. It will basically not engage at all now.
I know about the 12/ 6 volt starter combo,these have. I have a 1600 and use 12 volts. I know there are a couple replacement options, which one seems to work the best?

Problem 2) I had to by-pass the fuel pump to get it started. Also had to pull start it with my truck and put the snow trac in 4 th. Fired right up once we by-passed the fuel pump. I can figure out the fuel issue if I can get the starter working or replaced.

What is the best starter to use? Ideally something that can fit in the tight spot and not have to shave one of the mounting ears off.
Thanks for any suggestions.
I even called a tow truck yesterday but then finally got it started and running enough to get it back on the trailer. First time we never made it to the trail and probably a good thing!

i posted about the 1600cc high torque starter and posted a picture. it fits on the mounts fine.

Thanks JimVT. I saw the photo but what brand model number is it? That looks like what I want to order. Do you have to shave a mounting ear off?

I found these online. Prices seem to vary quite a bit.
Any suggestions on any of theses?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=860039

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=637988

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1874514

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1874477

http://www.forumsforums.com/3_9/showthread.php?t=68216&highlight=starter
no cutting. I installed it on a spare 1600 with the transaxle bolted while on my shop floor.
it fit fine . I never cranked it over but I see no reason why it shouldn't.
jim

snowsurfer said:

I found these online. Prices seem to vary quite a bit.
Any suggestions on any of theses?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=860039

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=637988

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1874514

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1874477

Click to expand...

did you check ebay? don may be running one now. check with him and see how it it holding up.
jim

I thought I had posted something first you need to know do you have a 6 or 12 v ring gear, your problem sounds like the pilot bushing is bad. in the end the starter needs to come out I would bet yours is a 12 volt model you also need to look at fly wheel with a mirror to make shure it doesn't need dental work. good luck for all who care I'm running a new at the time bosch 6 volt starter on a modified 200mm fly wheel with a replaceable 180 mm ring gear. I have 4 years now on this combo with no problems

Snowtrac Nome said:

I thought I had posted something first you need to know do you have a 6 or 12 v ring gear, your problem sounds like the pilot bushing is bad. in the end the starter needs to come out I would bet yours is a 12 volt model you also need to look at fly wheel with a mirror to make shure it doesn't need dental work. good luck for all who care I'm running a new at the time bosch 6 volt starter on a modified 200mm fly wheel with a replaceable 180 mm ring gear. I have 4 years now on this combo with no problems

Click to expand...

The pilot bushing is very important and a bugger to change in the machine ! I made a puller with a 3/8" bolt & flat washers and managed to draw out the old one & drawin the new bushing . This bushing will eatup a new starter if not changed . #ST2018

Thanks guys.
JimVT, I did look at ebay as well. There seemed to be more choices on The Samba so I posted those. Prices seem to vary on ebay as well.

Don and Night owl, I actually have two starters, mine came with a spare. They both have the bushing on the starter shaft vs the bell housing. They are also a bit longer than the standard 12 volt units that I run in my 71 vw busses.
They both have one shaved mounting ear and use the angle iron brackets to hold in place. My engine is a newer and has been rebuilt and snot really know what fly rig is on it but I'm guessing it's standard for a 12 volt starter.

I had the starter out (part way) last week and looked at all the teeth with a mirror and they all looked just fine to me. (Had this starter problem for the first time a week ago while out on the trail, thought I was going to have to leave it).

The symptoms began with a bit of grinding noise about every rotation of the flywheel upon starting. It finally will not engage at all now and just free spins. Not really sure if the starter is bad or not yet. I like Jim VT's starter since it doesn't take a pilot bushing and looks like it bolts right on with out shaving a mounting ear off. I'd like to try a different starter before I pull the engine out and really have a closer look.

I am trying to avoid pulling the engine. I have to cut the exhaust off for one thing since it was welded on to the muffler and since I don't have a Cherry picker to pull it out the top I am considering taking the front end apart and pulling it out the front. Looks fairly simple that way and I can use my floor jack. But I don't want to do it unless I really need to.

It sounds like JimVT has a good solution. I'm just trying to figure out which hi torque one to get since the prices vary so much. What did your cost JimVT?

Thanks again for the help, it's always appreciated.

I think the gear reduction unit is the way to go, but I still have 2 more new starters to go so until the ring gear dies or I run out of starters I will continue this way. as for pulling the motor that is just required for flywheel inspection and id at this point in time I would suggest it, as your issues sound like a 12v starter on a 6 volt ring gear they work for a while new but wont last long you don't need a cherry picker just a truss and come along or a couple of strong teens. the engine only weighs in at a couple hundred pounds and can be lifted out by hand I have done it in the past.

Thanks Don. I do have a truss but I don't have a hoist chain or any teenagers around to help lift it out. If I did get it hoisted up I then have to pull the snow trac out of the way to lower the engine. I'm just not set up well for it. My shop is my driveway so if it's fairly easy to pull out the front, I'm more set up for that. I don't have a front bumper and it looks like I just need to remove the skid plate, those two curved pieces that run up and under the front grill and the grill itself.
But I'm listening to all advise here. If there is a reason that I shouldn't attempt the front pull, let me know. If I had a shop with a concrete floor and a Cherry picker I would pull it out the top and if I had to do it that way I would manage but if there is an option of a front pull, I would do that considering my set up here.

I bought my gear starter some time back and don't know what I paid.
this is the front. you use both vw starter mount bolts.

I'm leaning towards this one. It comes with both the 6 volt and 12 volt starter gear. Not the cheapest one I found but also not the most expensive one either.
Anyone see any issues with using this one?

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=887857

I've been reading JimVT's thread and that starter seems perfect. You can install and remove it easier without the longer shaft with bushing and having the wire connections on the side would make it a heck of a lot easier to get to.
I think I'll give it a whirl and see how it goes. In the meantime i need to work on getting the snow trac off the trailer and moved around a bit. I'll probably chain it to a tree and drive the trailer out from under it.
I hope to get this fixed ASAP. We are having a great winter around here.

How can you tell the difference between a 6 volt starter gear and a 12 volt gear?
I'm trying to determine what my fly wheel is by the starter gear.
I have a starter here from my 71 bus and the snow trac one sitting next to it.
9 teeth on each but the snow trac gear measures 2.9 with my caliper and the 71 bus one is 2.5.
Anyone know?

I think I just figured out my question.
The 12 volt starter has a narrower shaft than the 6 volt starter.
So the snow trac starter on my bench that is a spare and original to my snow trac (at least used on it for years) and it is has the 6 volt teeth. I now wonder if the newer starter that the previous owner installed that is currently on it is a 12 or 6 volt starter? It sounds like both would work but the 12 volt one can start to grind like it's doing on mine even though the fly wheel looks fine. It's worked fine for three winters of occasional use but it's making a racket now.

I just ordered one of those hi torque starters with a 6 volt starter gear on it. If that solves the starter issue, it will save me a lot of work.

look at the pilot shaft the the 6 volt will have a thicker pilot shaft because the 180 mm fly wheel is smaller I'm figuring you have a 6 volt starter. here is the next problem there was never 180 mm fly wheels for 1600 engines so unless you have a custom flywheel like mine you also have the wrong fly wheel just because the 6 volt flywheel will bolt up to a 1600 engine doesn't mean it will work because it is hanging on the dowel pins and not the crank

Here is a helpful thread on starter and flywheel differences.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/vi...ighlight=volt+starter+gear++volt+starter+gear

Thanks Don. I guess I will paint a flywheel tooth and count them and see what that tells me. I'll do this when I get the starter out and have another more educated look and make sure they are correct for each other. This new starter will have both gears with it.

The wrong flywheel on there unless modified would be a bummer. I know you can't tell that without pulling the motor. Still hoping I can avoid pulling the motor right now.

One problem Sean has: His is one of those "constructed" units. So he could have a '67 X and a '78 Y.... either way though it should be a stock 12V from the vw perspective.

On mine I couldn't pull out the top without dropping the exhaust manifolds. Don't know if that is an effect of it's PO's treatment or not. If you get it enough forward to come free of the bell housing it is under the front drives. and won't clear enough to come out Even breaking the chains the hubs wouldn't adjust farr enough forward. It will drop out the bottom though intact.

I thought I'd update this. I found my starter problem.
I just removed the starter that's been in there since I've owned it. It has worked perfectly for the last three winters of use. The pervious owner said he had installed it and then found out the original starter was still good so he also left that in the Snow Trac when I bought it.
The original starter has a 6 volt starter gear on it.
The one I just took out has a 12 starter gear on it.
I just counted the teeth in my flywheel and I has 109. That is a 6 volt flywheel.
I have had the wrong starter gear in it. It started just fine but then after last weekends several long attempt at getting it started, it finally would not grab the teeth any more.
The 12 volt starter gear on a 6 volt flywheel will grab it when new and perfect condition but once just a 1/2 mm or less wears away it can no longer grab the teeth. Now you need the larger starting gear to do it.
I bought the starter that JimVT has and ordered it with the 6 volt starter gear on it. I just bolted it up and haven't started it yet but so far I like it. It mounts easier and you don't have to shave off a mounting ear to mount it. It has an adjustable mounting plate.
I think this is going to solve my starting problem.
Now I wonder what size engine I have? I have assumed it was a 1600 but now I know it has a 6 volt flywheel on it, I really don't know what size I have.
It doesn't matter too much to what size it is to me but now I'm curious.

I'll let you know how it works after I test it out more. Thanks for all the suggestions and help.

I will make your day you need to pull the motor. the 6 volt flywheel will bolt to a 1600 crank but you can't go the other way. the reason is the step on the 1600 engines is smaller than the 6 volt engines. there some rare 6 volt 1600 flywheels I have one if you have one of the older 40 hp flywheels it will be piloting on the dowel pins at the back of the crank and will eventually come loose, been there done that I think there maybe a post on it some where. also it is likely you have a 180 mm clutch it really isn't strong enough for a 1600 that is why the 200mm clutch came with the 1600. good luck

Thanks Don. Now what if my engine was a 1500 all along? I just assumed it was a 1600sp but really I have no idea what size it is.

first off check the serial number below the oil filler it will id what case you have also if you have a dedachable oil filler neck likely you have a 1600 if the oil filler neck is cast as part of the case you have an old 36 to 40 horse engine also look at the heads there are some rare 1500 industrial engines that were a 1500 built on a 1600 case I see about 1 per year they will have the detachable oil filler but the old style heads where the intake bolts flat to the top of the head not angled like a 1600 single port. another dead give away is fresh air heating I don't think any of the older engines had fresh air heating

how about some pics of the engine

Ok. I'll get some pics and look up the case number.
It has the detachable alternator mount. Looks just like my 1600 DP's I have here per than the sp heads. Normal looking heads too and fresh air heater boxes like they should be.

only a few weeks till our party feb 19 get that thing running.

I should have it going by tomorrow or the next day and hope to take it out this weekend. We are getting dumped on!
I can't make the Jamboree (again) this year. It happens to fall on the same weekend as a snowboard race I'm going to at Mt Baker. Can't miss the race, I've been trying to get in for years through a lottery system. Last time I did this particular race was 1989. I better start getting in shape!
I'll be living off the pictures of the Jamboree though so hope you all post a bunch.

Hooked up the new hi torque starter and it's working great. Even has a nice sound to it when starting. Real easy to install in that tight space and location of the wires work better too. All seems to be good to go for a weekend excursion.
I still don't know why it wouldn't start last week. I by passed the fuel pump and it runs great and I just hooked it back up to the fuel pump and it still works great. I'll carry an extra pump just in case but seems that I probably could get by if it fails again by by passing the pump.