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Should a Preacher (minister, pastor or deacon) be paid?

elsmitro

floppy member
I know we have a lot of different religious beliefs around here but I was wonder if any of you would like to comment on this subject? If they were paid wouldn’t it be a job? Then they could be accused of working on Sunday (or whatever you’re religious day is). Why do we see so many begging for $ when they should be begging for souls? Is tithing still a still expected?

Isaiah 45:13, 1 Pet. 5:2, Luke 9:2-3, 1 Tim 6:8-9-10-11-12

Sorry about all the questions, thinking about checking out my trapping (preacher) buddies church and trying to think of reasons not to.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Well I know that it varies by religion.

Catholic priests do get paid a stipend but it is fairly modest, they use it to cover their living expenses (our priest is expected to pay for his own food, car, entertainment expenses, etc). But we do collect money for dozens of different reasons including: supporting a mission, paying for our school teacher's insurance, grounds maintenance, literally dozens of local ministries that range from Bible study groups to feeding/clothing the poor in our town, etc.

So on Sunday when he "begs for money" he is not begging for himself.
 

Sir Knight

New member
In 1 Kings 6,7,8 the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. This can only be accomplished with contributions coming from the faithful. The money raised needs to support not only the physical structures but also those who minister to the faithful.

Negative comments about giving money to support the church is like the disciples complaining about the woman anointing Jesus' head with costly oil in Matt. 26:8-9; Mark 14:4-5; John 12:5.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
By the way, missionaries do not typically solicit money. For example, in the Mormon Church, it is still customary for many young men to go on an 18 month mission. During that time they have living expenses, travel expenses, etc. They are funded by their church and their family. If the Mormon's did not solicit money at their weekly mass, they could not support these efforts.

You specifically ask about tithing and that is expected in some format. I have a close friend who is a member of a Dutch Reformed (Protestant) church and they formalize giving, to the point that they will visit your home if you don't increase your giving from year to year, etc.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
In 1 Kings 6,7,8 the Lord commands us to build elaborate places of worship. This can only be accomplished with contributions coming from the faithful. The money raised needs to support not only the physical structures but also those who minister to the faithful.
Why couldn't it be accomplished with your time and / or craftsmanship?

By the way, missionaries do not typically solicit money. For example, in the Mormon Church, it is still customary for many young men to go on an 18 month mission. During that time they have living expenses, travel expenses, etc. They are funded by their church and their family. If the Mormon's did not solicit money at their weekly mass, they could not support these efforts.
Did either of you check out the links I posted? Specifically these 2 as far as missionaries go.:
http://bible.cc/luke/9-2.htm
http://bible.cc/luke/9-3.htm
You specifically ask about tithing and that is expected in some format. I have a close friend who is a member of a Dutch Reformed (Protestant) church and they formalize giving, to the point that they will visit your home if you don't increase your giving from year to year, etc.
But, shouldn't all of these 'gifts' be from the heart? If you’re donating to someone that is so demanding my guess would be that you’re donating to SATAN!
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Why couldn't it be accomplished with your time and / or craftsmanship?
It would still require the donation of goods, food, etc. I'd suggest that in today's society it is not practical. It would require that someone in the parish have a stone quarry to cut the stones to build the church, another would have to have a forest of trees and another a lumber milling machine, etc. And then are those not donations that are no different than a cash equivalent? But if it matters, we do feed our priest, because we enjoy his company. So he comes to our home for picnics, parties and dinners. We also go out socially and I feed him them, if that is what you are getting at?

Did either of you check out the links I posted? Specifically these 2 as far as missionaries go.:
http://bible.cc/luke/9-2.htm
http://bible.cc/luke/9-3.htm
I don't see were there is a real problem, because most of the money we Catholics donate to mission work goes to the people we are trying to help to build schools, provide them with food and medical care. There are plenty of passages where it states we are to feed the hungry and clothe the poor, etc. The example you site might be more appropriate for the Mormons who send people out to evangalize, but I'm not sure of many of the teachings of their church.

But, shouldn't all of these 'gifts' be from the heart? If you’re donating to someone that is so demanding my guess would be that you’re donating to SATAN!
Well I do give from the heart, and in no Catholic church have I ever been asked for a specific donation, a specific % of my income, etc. In fact in the Catholic church if you choose not to give, that is perfectly acceptable. Can't say it is the same for other churches.
 

Doc

Bottoms Up
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
In our society it is impossible to get by without money. Bartering works, but I consider that another form of payment. Yes, I believe ministers & priests should be paid.

I had never thought of the idea of them working on the Sabbath when God instructed all to rest. Since they are doing God's work, would that be exempt from the working on the sabbath rule. Or is the rule about not working on the sabbath a guideline so that people can take a day or two off and rest and not feel guilty? I'm speculating here, kind of thinking out loud, I do not know the answer.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Jesus had no worldly goods when he walked the earth. In fact (not bothering to look this up right now) I remember being taught that he wants you to give up all you’re toys and follow him. He said not to compile treasures; no matter how well you try to protect them they will be taken. He said it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. I am by no means rich; I do chase the buck (a little) so my kids can have “better” lives. But, I don’t think the gates of heaven open for excuses.

(What happen to CityBoy? Someone said he was handing out pro castro leaflets in New Orleans??? :smileywac )
 

Sir Knight

New member
Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it. The old commandments REQUIRED elaborate places of worship to be built and maintained AND for the priests to be provided for.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Jesus said that He did not come to abolish the old law but to fulfill it. The old commandments REQUIRED elaborate places of worship to be built and maintained AND for the priests to be provided for.

:yum: Yeah right, that sounds like a greedy person that likes to wear expensive robes and funny hats to me... In fact, I'd venture to say that GOD could care less about how fancy the place you worship is; as long as you’re heart is in it. You could worship alone in an open field and it would mean more to him than all the treasure the fancy hypocrites could muster.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
The Catholics, it we want to direct the comments there, have local parishes and we have cathedrals. Our local priests don't wear funny hats or expensive robes. Go to a Catholic Cathedral and you will find much more of the ceremony and finery, but realize those Cathedrals are few and far between. The local priests often wear nothing more than simple street clothes with a simple vestment over them, basically a cape. Many are plain brown, and of simple course (almost canvas) cloth, tied with a rope belt. Seasonally they may wear various colors that have special meanings, some may have embrodered borders, but I would certainly not call them fancy. Some of our older churches are elaborate, most of our newer (built after the 1950's) are pretty plain. As for praying in an open field, we do that in our parish during harvesting times of the year. And as long as the worship is true worship, then it really doesn't matter where it occurs. But that does not mean that people are hypocrites for building church buildings that glorify the spirit of God.
 

mtntopper

Back On Track
SUPER Site Supporter
:yum: Yeah right, that sounds like a greedy person that likes to wear expensive robes and funny hats to me... In fact, I'd venture to say that GOD could care less about how fancy the place you worship is; as long as you’re heart is in it. You could worship alone in an open field and it would mean more to him than all the treasure the fancy hypocrites could muster.

Amen....Too much is put into ceremony and to little into doing what is right by your fellow man by many people that tout their religious beliefs and hold themselves above others. I have had to deal and work with too many people that go to church every Sunday and forget how to treat others as soon as they walk out the church doors.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
The Catholics, it we want to direct the comments there, have local parishes and we have cathedrals. Our local priests don't wear funny hats or expensive robes. Go to a Catholic Cathedral and you will find much more of the ceremony and finery, but realize those Cathedrals are few and far between. The local priests often wear nothing more than simple street clothes with a simple vestment over them, basically a cape. Many are plain brown, and of simple course (almost canvas) cloth, tied with a rope belt. Seasonally they may wear various colors that have special meanings, some may have embrodered borders, but I would certainly not call them fancy. Some of our older churches are elaborate, most of our newer (built after the 1950's) are pretty plain. As for praying in an open field, we do that in our parish during harvesting times of the year. And as long as the worship is true worship, then it really doesn't matter where it occurs. But that does not mean that people are hypocrites for building church buildings that glorify the spirit of God.
:respect:

I am not trying to directly offend Catholics (today :yum:). They are just the ones I think of when I think ‘flamboyance of riches in religion’. I have no personal experience mind you; that’s all from TV / Hollywood. That is the image society has put in my brain housing group (yes, I am a victim! :yum:)

Amen....Too much is put into ceremony and to little into doing what is right by your fellow man by many people that tout their religious beliefs and hold themselves above others. I have had to deal and work with too many people that go to church every Sunday and forget how to treat others as soon as they walk out the church doors.

We all have to put up with people like that at work. Some of us probably have to tolerate in their personal lives as well.
I try to be a decent person, I open doors for ladies (fat and thin), try to be a courteous driver, a decent husband and father, but I have not been a regular churchgoer in some time. I guess it’s pulling on the old heartstrings again but I’m not sure where it’s trying to take me. Scary stuff.
I know I don’t always come across like lamb skin but I hope you can find your way to understand what I’m getting at most of the time.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
:respect:

I am not trying to directly offend Catholics (today :yum:). They are just the ones I think of when I think ‘flamboyance of riches in religion’.
Some would suggest that it is a richness of spirit.
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Well he and I read from the same book, so he must have good taste!
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Well he and I read from the same book, so he must have good taste!

The “HE” (consumer whore) I was referencing was the writer of such a passage. If one truly exhists, I have not heard it like that before. Besides, a writer of the Old Testament – vs. – the word of Lord Jesus… I know who I’m going with.
 

Sir Knight

New member
I'd venture to say that GOD could care less about how fancy the place you worship is
And you would be wrong ...

1 Kings 6:

1 And it came to pass in the four hundred and eightieth year after the children of Israel were come out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon's reign over Israel, in the month Zif, which is the second month, that he began to build the house of the LORD.

2 And the house which king Solomon built for the LORD, the length thereof was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof twenty cubits, and the height thereof thirty cubits.

3 And the porch before the temple of the house, twenty cubits was the length thereof, according to the breadth of the house; and ten cubits was the breadth thereof before the house.

4 And for the house he made windows of narrow lights.

5 And against the wall of the house he built chambers round about, against the walls of the house round about, both of the temple and of the oracle: and he made chambers round about:

6 The nethermost chamber was five cubits broad, and the middle was six cubits broad, and the third was seven cubits broad: for without in the wall of the house he made narrowed rests round about, that the beams should not be fastened in the walls of the house.

7 And the house, when it was in building, was built of stone made ready before it was brought thither: so that there was neither hammer nor axe nor any tool of iron heard in the house, while it was in building.

8 The door for the middle chamber was in the right side of the house: and they went up with winding stairs into the middle chamber, and out of the middle into the third.

9 So he built the house, and finished it; and covered the house with beams and boards of cedar.

10 And then he built chambers against all the house, five cubits high: and they rested on the house with timber of cedar.

11 And the word of the LORD came to Solomon, saying,

12 Concerning this house which thou art in building, if thou wilt walk in my statutes, and execute my judgments, and keep all my commandments to walk in them; then will I perform my word with thee, which I spake unto David thy father:

13 And I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake my people Israel.

14 So Solomon built the house, and finished it.

15 And he built the walls of the house within with boards of cedar, both the floor of the house, and the walls of the ceiling: and he covered them on the inside with wood, and covered the floor of the house with planks of fir.

16 And he built twenty cubits on the sides of the house, both the floor and the walls with boards of cedar: he even built them for it within, even for the oracle, even for the most holy place.

17 And the house, that is, the temple before it, was forty cubits long.

18 And the cedar of the house within was carved with knops and open flowers: all was cedar; there was no stone seen.

19 And the oracle he prepared in the house within, to set there the ark of the covenant of the LORD.

20 And the oracle in the forepart was twenty cubits in length, and twenty cubits in breadth, and twenty cubits in the height thereof: and he overlaid it with pure gold; and so covered the altar which was of cedar.

21 So Solomon overlaid the house within with pure gold: and he made a partition by the chains of gold before the oracle; and he overlaid it with gold.

22 And the whole house he overlaid with gold, until he had finished all the house: also the whole altar that was by the oracle he overlaid with gold.

23 And within the oracle he made two cherubims of olive tree, each ten cubits high.

24 And five cubits was the one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the other wing of the cherub: from the uttermost part of the one wing unto the uttermost part of the other were ten cubits.

25 And the other cherub was ten cubits: both the cherubims were of one measure and one size.

26 The height of the one cherub was ten cubits, and so was it of the other cherub.

27 And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.

28 And he overlaid the cherubims with gold.

29 And he carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, within and without.

30 And the floors of the house he overlaid with gold, within and without.

31 And for the entering of the oracle he made doors of olive tree: the lintel and side posts were a fifth part of the wall.

32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and palm trees and open flowers, and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.

33 So also made he for the door of the temple posts of olive tree, a fourth part of the wall.

34 And the two doors were of fir tree: the two leaves of the one door were folding, and the two leaves of the other door were folding.

35 And he carved thereon cherubims and palm trees and open flowers: and covered them with gold fitted upon the carved work.

36 And he built the inner court with three rows of hewed stone, and a row of cedar beams.

37 In the fourth year was the foundation of the house of the LORD laid, in the month Zif:

38 And in the eleventh year, in the month Bul, which is the eighth month, was the house finished throughout all the parts thereof, and according to all the fashion of it. So was he seven years in building it.

1 Kings 7:

12 And the great court round about was with three rows of hewed stones, and a row of cedar beams, both for the inner court of the house of the LORD, and for the porch of the house.

13 And king Solomon sent and fetched Hiram out of Tyre.

14 He was a widow's son of the tribe of Naphtali, and his father was a man of Tyre, a worker in brass: and he was filled with wisdom, and understanding, and cunning to work all works in brass. And he came to king Solomon, and wrought all his work.

15 For he cast two pillars of brass, of eighteen cubits high apiece: and a line of twelve cubits did compass either of them about.

16 And he made two chapiters of molten brass, to set upon the tops of the pillars: the height of the one chapiter was five cubits, and the height of the other chapiter was five cubits:

17 And nets of checker work, and wreaths of chain work, for the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars; seven for the one chapiter, and seven for the other chapiter.

18 And he made the pillars, and two rows round about upon the one network, to cover the chapiters that were upon the top, with pomegranates: and so did he for the other chapiter.

19 And the chapiters that were upon the top of the pillars were of lily work in the porch, four cubits.

20 And the chapiters upon the two pillars had pomegranates also above, over against the belly which was by the network: and the pomegranates were two hundred in rows round about upon the other chapiter.

21 And he set up the pillars in the porch of the temple: and he set up the right pillar, and called the name thereof Jachin: and he set up the left pillar, and called the name thereof Boaz.

22 And upon the top of the pillars was lily work: so was the work of the pillars finished.

23 And he made a molten sea, ten cubits from the one brim to the other: it was round all about, and his height was five cubits: and a line of thirty cubits did compass it round about.

24 And under the brim of it round about there were knops compassing it, ten in a cubit, compassing the sea round about: the knops were cast in two rows, when it was cast.

25 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea was set above upon them, and all their hinder parts were inward.

26 And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.

27 And he made ten bases of brass; four cubits was the length of one base, and four cubits the breadth thereof, and three cubits the height of it.

28 And the work of the bases was on this manner: they had borders, and the borders were between the ledges:

29 And on the borders that were between the ledges were lions, oxen, and cherubims: and upon the ledges there was a base above: and beneath the lions and oxen were certain additions made of thin work.

30 And every base had four brasen wheels, and plates of brass: and the four corners thereof had undersetters: under the laver were undersetters molten, at the side of every addition.

31 And the mouth of it within the chapiter and above was a cubit: but the mouth thereof was round after the work of the base, a cubit and an half: and also upon the mouth of it were gravings with their borders, foursquare, not round.

32 And under the borders were four wheels; and the axletrees of the wheels were joined to the base: and the height of a wheel was a cubit and half a cubit.

33 And the work of the wheels was like the work of a chariot wheel: their axletrees, and their naves, and their felloes, and their spokes, were all molten.

34 And there were four undersetters to the four corners of one base: and the undersetters were of the very base itself.

35 And in the top of the base was there a round compass of half a cubit high: and on the top of the base the ledges thereof and the borders thereof were of the same.

36 For on the plates of the ledges thereof, and on the borders thereof, he graved cherubims, lions, and palm trees, according to the proportion of every one, and additions round about.

37 After this manner he made the ten bases: all of them had one casting, one measure, and one size.

38 Then made he ten lavers of brass: one laver contained forty baths: and every laver was four cubits: and upon every one of the ten bases one laver.

39 And he put five bases on the right side of the house, and five on the left side of the house: and he set the sea on the right side of the house eastward over against the south.

40 And Hiram made the lavers, and the shovels, and the basons. So Hiram made an end of doing all the work that he made king Solomon for the house of the LORD:

41 The two pillars, and the two bowls of the chapiters that were on the top of the two pillars; and the two networks, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters which were upon the top of the pillars;

42 And four hundred pomegranates for the two networks, even two rows of pomegranates for one network, to cover the two bowls of the chapiters that were upon the pillars;

43 And the ten bases, and ten lavers on the bases;

44 And one sea, and twelve oxen under the sea;

45 And the pots, and the shovels, and the basons: and all these vessels, which Hiram made to king Solomon for the house of the LORD, were of bright brass.

46[/size] In the plain of Jordan did the king cast them, in the clay ground between Succoth and Zarthan.

47 And Solomon left all the vessels unweighed, because they were exceeding many: neither was the weight of the brass found out.

48 And Solomon made all the vessels that pertained unto the house of the LORD: the altar of gold, and the table of gold, whereupon the shewbread was,

49 And the candlesticks of pure gold, five on the right side, and five on the left, before the oracle, with the flowers, and the lamps, and the tongs of gold,

50 And the bowls, and the snuffers, and the basons, and the spoons, and the censers of pure gold; and the hinges of gold, both for the doors of the inner house, the most holy place, and for the doors of the house, to wit, of the temple.

51 So was ended all the work that king Solomon made for the house of the LORD. And Solomon brought in the things which David his father had dedicated; even the silver, and the gold, and the vessels, did he put among the treasures of the house of the LORD.
 

Sir Knight

New member
Just open up the bible and read it for yourself if you don't believe my quotes.



So you admit that you are unfamiliar with scripture. That would explain the false conclusions that you came to.



Well, Jesus never WROTE a single word of the New Testament. He taught his followers and they wrote it down. Actually, according to most historical scholars, it wasn't actually written down by Jesus's disciples and the disciples of those disciples.

So, if a writer of the Old Testament got the word of God incorrect, then a writer of the New Testament could have also got the words of Jesus incorrect as well.

Oh, and before you discount the words of the Old Testament, let's not forget that Jesus said that the Father was greater than the Son ( John 14:2 ).
 

Melensdad

Jerk in a Hawaiian Shirt & SNOWCAT Moderator
Staff member
GOLD Site Supporter
Well, Jesus never WROTE a single word of the New Testament. He taught his followers and they wrote it down. Actually, according to most historical scholars, it wasn't actually written down by Jesus's disciples and the disciples of those disciples.

So, if a writer of the Old Testament got the word of God incorrect, then a writer of the New Testament could have also got the words of Jesus incorrect as well.

Oh, and before you discount the words of the Old Testament, let's not forget that Jesus said that the Father was greater than the Son ( John 14:2 ).
The Bible was written under Divine Inspiration, meaning that human authors wrote, in their own words what God wished them to write down. It is unknown how many different people wrote the Bible, but we believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons that Catholics do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. The manuscripts, or handwritten texts were passed down by scribes. Interestingly things like the Dead Sea scrolls, discovered long after the Bible was translated, confirm, with great accuracy, many of the the stories of the Bible.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
And you would be wrong ...

Uh, NO, I wouldn't be. God never told Solomon to do that; he just did it (like a lot of things he did). Sure, he was blessed for it, but, we all know what happened to Wise Old king Solomon don't we?

Just open up the bible and read it for yourself if you don't believe my quotes....
:smileywac
I have, surely you don't expect me to believe that “REQUIRED elaborate places of worship to be built and maintained” is a quote from the bible...

[So you admit that you are unfamiliar with scripture. That would explain the false conclusions that you came to.
:yum: :moon: I can’t quote the scripture but I know what I was taught and can and will defend it. (BTW: I was never taught that preachers shouldn't be paid; it's just a thought I have been dwelling on.)

[Well, Jesus never WROTE a single word of the New Testament. He taught his followers and they wrote it down. Actually, according to most historical scholars, it wasn't actually written down by Jesus's disciples and the disciples of those disciples.

So, if a writer of the Old Testament got the word of God incorrect, then a writer of the New Testament could have also got the words of Jesus incorrect as well.

Oh, and before you discount the words of the Old Testament, let's not forget that Jesus said that the Father was greater than the Son ( John 14:2 ).

I don’t care for your demonic roller coaster ride. I asked if you thought preachers (and the like) should be paid. Why do you think it is OK to pull crap out your butt to defend Paris Hiltonestic religious splendor? Now I’m stuck explaining to you that the Father, Son, and Holly Spirit, are one and the same.

John 14:28: "You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I"

To explain the passage you presented: This means he laid aside His divine privilege with pride. He "humbled himself", as flesh to the spirit!

Philippians 2:5-11: 5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
 

Sir Knight

New member
The Bible was written under Divine Inspiration, meaning that human authors wrote, in their own words what God wished them to write down. It is unknown how many different people wrote the Bible, but we believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit. This is one of the reasons that Catholics do not believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible. The manuscripts, or handwritten texts were passed down by scribes. Interestingly things like the Dead Sea scrolls, discovered long after the Bible was translated, confirm, with great accuracy, many of the the stories of the Bible.
And that applies to both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The bible clearly says that ALL of scripture is there for our benefit because ALL of it was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.
 
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Sir Knight

New member
Uh, NO, I wouldn't be. God never told Solomon to do that; he just did it (like a lot of things he did). Sure, he was blessed for it, but, we all know what happened to Wise Old king Solomon don't we?
God blessed it which meant that it pleased Him. If it didn't please Him, He wouldn't have blessed it. Show me where God ever blessed anything that was not pleasing to Him? That would make Him a hypocrite.

If having an elaborate place of worship was pleasing to God back then, then it continues to be so today because scripture tells us that God does not change from one generation to the next.

And, yes, we all know what happened to Wise Old king Solomon and it had nothing to do with building the temple. To imply otherwise is misleading and in error.


:smileywac
I have, surely you don't expect me to believe that “REQUIRED elaborate places of worship to be built and maintained” is a quote from the bible...
Never said that it was a quote from the bible but that through out both the old & new Testament, the faithful were required to support their places of worship and that included the priests. Note that the early Christians turned over everything they had to the Apostles and the Apostles divided it up as they saw fit.


:yum: :moon: I can’t quote the scripture but I know what I was taught and can and will defend it.
If you can't provide a reference for your position, how are you going to defend it? You may have been taught incorrectly or you may have rememebered it incorrectly or both.

References to support your beliefs are needed -- either scripture, history or logicaly conclusions drawn from either scripture, history or both.


I don’t care for your demonic roller coaster ride. I asked if you thought preachers (and the like) should be paid. Why do you think it is OK to pull crap out your butt to defend Paris Hiltonestic religious splendor?
"demonic roller coaster ride"? Getting a little hostile, aren't we?

I am not pulling anything out of butt but out of the Holy Bible, something which you obviously have little knowledge of or respect for; otherwise you would obey the instruction given to us in 1 Peter 3:15 to "defend the faith with gentleness and reverence".

And your comments about "defending Paris Hiltonestic religious splendor" is a FALSE strawman arguement.


Now I’m stuck explaining to you that the Father, Son, and Holly Spirit, are one and the same.
No, they are not. That goes against not only Catholic teaching but all established Christian teaching. The following images are being pulled off of CHRISTIAN sites (not even Catholic) ...

Trinity.gif
trinity-godhood.gif

...
  1. There is only one God.
  2. The Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God.
  3. The Son is not the Father; the Father is not the Holy Spirit; the Holy Spirit is not the Son.
  4. In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father AND the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent.
  5. When Chirst's ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
And that applies to both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The bible clearly says that ALL of scripture is there for our benefit because ALL of it was inspired by the Holy Spirit of God - 2 Tim. 3:16-17.

Hmm, OK, so was this post. You quote a lot but you're wavering from the original question. (You may be putting you're own spin on things or maybe that's what you were taught.)
I think I have gained a lot from this post, because through my googles I have found the GOD'S WORD® translation of the bible. From what I have seen so far it is accurate and in today’s English.
For that I thank you!

2 Timothy 3:16
GWT: Every Scripture passage is inspired by God. All of them are useful for teaching, pointing out errors, correcting people, and training them for a life that has God's approval.
2 Timothy 3:17
GWT: They equip God's servants so that they are completely prepared to do good things.

Only problem is that we have to have a clear interpretation, and understand the whole bible. But, someone didn’t want to include everything when they put the bible together. What are we to do about that?
 

Sir Knight

New member
Jesus gave AUTHORITY to the Apostles. He promised that the Holy Spirit of God would guide them in ALL truths. Thus, when they were assembling the bible, they were being guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth to include those scriptures which were the Word of God and exclude those that were not.
 

XeVfTEUtaAqJHTqq

Master of Distraction
Staff member
SUPER Site Supporter
Thanks for all your work on these posts Sir Knight! It's great to see someone pulling references and defending his positions. I think you are doing a great job presenting your arguments.

DZ, elsmitro - you're gonna have to work a little harder. Less name calling more research! ;)
 

Sir Knight

New member
Thanks for all your work on these posts Sir Knight! It's great to see someone pulling references and defending his positions. I think you are doing a great job presenting your arguments.
Thank you. :thumb:


You quote a lot but you're wavering from the original question.
I thought that I already address the original question and have been addressing subsequent questions as they've come up.


(You may be putting you're own spin on things or maybe that's what you were taught.)
Haven't I been providing references to support my "spin"?
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Jesus gave AUTHORITY to the Apostles. He promised that the Holy Spirit of God would guide them in ALL truths. Thus, when they were assembling the bible, they were being guided by the Holy Spirit of Truth to include those scriptures which were the Word of God and exclude those that were not.

Once again I find you’re interpretation confusing. This is the closest thing I can come up with but it’s got little to do with my point.

John 14:16-17,26
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:13-14
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

I'd say we all failed him here.
 

elsmitro

floppy member
Thanks for all your work on these posts Sir Knight! It's great to see someone pulling references and defending his positions. I think you are doing a great job presenting your arguments.

You actually approve of his misinterpretations? How sad.

DZ, elsmitro - you're gonna have to work a little harder. Less name calling more research! ;)

Strange, I do not recall any name-calling. Why would you suggest that I did?
 
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